Roll Bars?

[Captain_Stangin']

Hi guys, I am planning on entering my car into Solosprint (Time Trial) events (http://www.caccautosport.org/CACCsolosprint_main.html). I will require a 4 point roll bar, as specified in the CACC rulebook (http://www.caccautosport.org/pdf/2011SoloSprintRulebook.pdf).

I am undecided about getting a bolt-in cage, such as maximum motorsports, or contracting a local chassis shop to build my cage (which is obviously more expensive, but perhaps better?). I am wary of autopower cages, after seeing the pancake at Hallet.

What do you guys think?

 

[gtcs07]

I have a bolt in 6 point maximum motorsports cage now it was actually the first built and was fabbed in an issue of mm@ff. It fits great and was a breeze to install the door bars unbolt pretty easily and made a huge difference. I reccomend it.

 

[Philostang]

I too have a Maximum Motorsports bar (4-point). I love it. The mounting points are very well selected, mounting brackets are well designed, and the fabrication is top notch. You'll still need a welder to finish off the two rear struts (they initially bolt in to establish precise fitment, then you take the whole bar out and weld them permanently to the main hoop). So be aware it isn't a completely bolt-in process.

As for structural integrity, it's smartly built. The main hoops come down into the TOP of the rear bulkhead (that's one of the primary structural components of the chassis) not the floor pan - it never touches the floor pan. The brackets they have for this replace the OEM gusset bracket at those points and they're much stronger than the factory ones. The rear struts are sent to the wheel arch with large area pads that are formed to fit around the arch and sandwich the OEM steel with equally sized back plates in the wheel well. I got the road race unit with triangulated cross brace, since I didn't care about trying to preserve the functionality of the back seat. I have the highest confidence in their design.

I have no doubt that a well built (i.e. designed and fabricated) fully welded in 4-point bar would have some marginal advantage over a bolt-in unit (all things being equal), but I'd be very surprised if it was much (and perhaps would be of greater benefit if it was designed to tie in and reinforce the rear shock mount area, like the Rehagen/FR500S bars do...which, even so, IMO are only important for coil over set ups). I could always weld in the bar I have if I wanted to, and I'd be happy to match it up against any other custom 4-point bar out there. The MM bar is really very well done.

Best,
-j

 

[DusterRT]

Another vote for MM, I have nothing but good things to say about it. I have my alignments done at a well regarded race shop and they really liked it as well (they were really surprised it was a mail-order piece, fit and finish are excellent).

Here's a picture of the mounting pad..and I don't really think it does it justice, IMO. I was pretty floored with the quality when I unpackaged it.

 

[Kuro!]

Another vote for MM, I have nothing but good things to say about it. I have my alignments done at a well regarded race shop and they really liked it as well (they were really surprised it was a mail-order piece, fit and finish are excellent).

Here's a picture of the mounting pad..and I don't really think it does it justice, IMO. I was pretty floored with the quality when I unpackaged it.

that is fucking awesome

 

[Philostang]

Yep! The thing is beastly! And every weld is like that, very consistent high-quality fabrication.

That's the corner gusset that sits on each side of the rear bulkhead...that sh*t isn't going to pop through the floor if you up end the car. That's the way to do it Autopower...are you listening?

 

[SherrodMustang]

I have a bolt in 6 point maximum motorsports cage now it was actually the first built and was fabbed in an issue of mm@ff. It fits great and was a breeze to install the door bars unbolt pretty easily and made a huge difference. I reccomend it.

Was the removable doors something extra that you just called and added? Been looking at putting a roll cage in and removable doors are a must to help with getting in the car. Is swing out doors a option do you know?

 

[Vapour Trails]

I know many local competitors that don't have roll cages that are active in Solosprinting.

Where in the rule book do you think it says you need it? It should be determined by your classing.

Edit: I looked at the rule book, how are you supposed to know what class you are in?

 

[Captain_Stangin']

From the CACC rule book:

"B. ROLL-OVER PROTECTION:
Where required, roll-over protection must comply with the specifications contained in GCR Appendix II.
Roll-over protection is highly recommended for all vehicles and is mandatory for vehicles with fold-down
or completely removable tops.
For Hill Climb and Time Attack events, the following roll over protection is mandatory.
Cars competing in Super Stock, Street Prepared, Street Prepared X and vintage cars raced before 1980
must have roll bars conforming to CACC GCR Appendix II, or Appendix L of the SCCA Solo events
rules."

I plan to compete in class Super Stock 4 or "SS-4" for cars displacing "4001c.c. And over."

I will do solosprint/time attack at Mission Raceway http://www.sccbc.net/
and when the time comes: http://www.knoxmtnhillclimb.ca/

 

[Red06GT]

Hey Philo,

Do you have any pictures of the bar installed? How much did you have to modify the interior to install roll the bar?

Chim-Chim came up with an excellent design for a removable bar. I watched his build with great interest in Corner Carvers: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20586&highlight=roll+bar&page=7

I’m at the point where I really should have a roll bar and 5/6 point harness. I keep toying with the idea of taking a welding class at the community college and doing something similar to Chim-Chim’s. However, I’m not sure my brain is up to the task of cutting and fitting all of the tubes. There are rough carpenters and finish carpenters. I’m definitely in the rough carpenter category.

I too have a Maximum Motorsports bar (4-point). I love it. The mounting points are very well selected, mounting brackets are well designed, and the fabrication is top notch. You'll still need a welder to finish off the two rear struts (they initially bolt in to establish precise fitment, then you take the whole bar out and weld them permanently to the main hoop). So be aware it isn't a completely bolt-in process.

As for structural integrity, it's smartly built. The main hoops come down into the TOP of the rear bulkhead (that's one of the primary structural components of the chassis) not the floor pan - it never touches the floor pan. The brackets they have for this replace the OEM gusset bracket at those points and they're much stronger than the factory ones. The rear struts are sent to the wheel arch with large area pads that are formed to fit around the arch and sandwich the OEM steel with equally sized back plates in the wheel well. I got the road race unit with triangulated cross brace, since I didn't care about trying to preserve the functionality of the back seat. I have the highest confidence in their design.

I have no doubt that a well built (i.e. designed and fabricated) fully welded in 4-point bar would have some marginal advantage over a bolt-in unit (all things being equal), but I'd be very surprised if it was much (and perhaps would be of greater benefit if it was designed to tie in and reinforce the rear shock mount area, like the Rehagen/FR500S bars do...which, even so, IMO are only important for coil over set ups). I could always weld in the bar I have if I wanted to, and I'd be happy to match it up against any other custom 4-point bar out there. The MM bar is really very well done.

Best,
-j

 

[Philostang]

Hey Red,

I don't have many pics of the interior, and none of the actual install. So here's the best I got:

MM's website actually has some nice shots of how the bar looks when in (and they have the door bars included in their pics).

Chim-chim's bar is cool as hell, but I wasn't really interested in the preserving the back seat use.

One thing that I think folks considering the MM bar should know is that you have to cut up your interior lower quarter panels a bit. In fact, you cut them in half. They supply a neat and simple way to velcro strap them in place to make the interior look finished, but it's cut nonetheless. I tried cutting only a little of the panels but to no avail. Given how close the hoop is to the side of the car, you really need to cut them entirely in half to get them back into position. Maybe somebody else was able to use the MM bar w/o doing this, but I wasn't so I just followed the MM directions.

So this isn't something that would unbolt and go back to stock without those interior panels being replaced (which, all things considered, isn't hard to procure). Otherwise, it's just a few drilled holes in the wheel wells.

Once everything is back together you don't really see that the panels were altered this much, it looks pretty good back there. I didn't put my rear seats back in, but you could if you wanted to. They also have street bars with removable cross-braces to accommodate this, but I was pretty intent on getting the diagonal bar as well, and they don't make one of those that will unbolt from the main hoop. I'll try to get pics today, since I'm doing a bit of work on the car.

Best,
-j

 

[Captain_Stangin']

Wow, those mounting pads look SOLID. Autopower's is just scary:

It looks like a little 3"x4" pad, mounted in a area of poor structural strength. Little wonder it punched through that car at Hallet.

 

[tbrock]

For those that have had some one install a 4 point system what is the typical cost including the purchase price?

 

[Chim-Chim]

Trust me, Red, I'm no finish carpenter! The key was taking my time with fitment and using a set of these: http://www.vansantent.com/pipemaster.htm

If keeping use of the backseat isn't a concern, I agree that the MM bar is the best one out there.

 

[KITT]

I have a trackspec motorsport cage

http://www.trackspecmotorsports.com...2-s197-mustang-bolt-in-rollcage-chromoly.html

 

[Philostang]

Keep the Hallet incident in mind when looking at bars. They're called "roll bars" for a reason. Their primary function is to keep you safe during a roll over - though we hope that their most frequent function is simply to give you a safe place to mount your shoulder harnesses.

The floors on these cars are not the best point to put the main hoop, and if it's going to be done then it had better have a very wide footprint (6"x6" pads should be the standard). If I were again shopping for a bar, I'd want detailed pics of the mounting points on any pre-fabbed bar before settling on it.

FWIW, the MM bar requires a very small amount of welding to prep it for final install, but after that it's a straight up bolt in affair. From that point forward, it shouldn't cost you much more than a case of beer for a friend's hand.

Best,
-j

 

[ScootDawg]

i don't have 1 but this is the 1 i'm thinking about getting from evolution performance

http://www.evoperform.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_127&products_id=556

 

[Chim-Chim]

i don't have 1 but this is the 1 i'm thinking about getting from evolution performance

http://www.evoperform.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_127&products_id=556

Based on the pic, it looks like the main hoop probably mounts to the floorpan? If so, they wouldn't get my money.

The only way a floorpan mount would be acceptable, would be, as Philostang suggested, using a much larger floor plate. Then tying that floorplate to the vertical door sill and also to the rear seat/bulkhead area. This could easily be done by just welding pieces of 1/8" plate at 90 degree angles to the floorplate, so that it now wraps up a few inches on those two sides. Then there is at least some hope of preventing punch-through.

Or you could just get the better design that mounts to the bulkhead.

 

[Philostang]

Based on the pic, it looks like the main hoop probably mounts to the floorpan? If so, they wouldn't get my money.

+1

The only way a floorpan mount would be acceptable, would be, as Philostang suggested, using a much larger floor plate. Then tying that floorplate to the vertical door sill and also to the rear seat/bulkhead area. This could easily be done by just welding pieces of 1/8" plate at 90 degree angles to the floorplate, so that it now wraps up a few inches on those two sides. Then there is at least some hope of preventing punch-through.

Agreed again. This is what we put together for a friend's Autopower bar:

Because...this is what you get with an Autopower bar:

So not good...that's not how to do things right.

Frankly, it's shocking that a company as well-versed in building bars should have let this go to market. Every bar/cage package I've ever seen (and every article on the subject I've read) has had 6"x6" plates standard for the floor mounts. I don't care one whit about the ability to pull the wool over some tech inspectors eyes. A bar's purpose is not to pass tech. A bar's' purpose is to protect you, and we've known for a very long time that such tiny pads won't do that. Shame on any bar manufacturer who doesn't do things right.

Or you could just get the better design that mounts to the bulkhead.

YES!

 

[Chim-Chim]

Very nice work, Philostang! It looks like you did 90 degree bends on some parts? If so, how? Heavy duty brake, or a press? Inquiring weekend fab-warriors want to know.