Supercharger for Road Racing

[NEMustang]

I'm looking for forum feedback on the Procharger D-1SC w/Intercooler kit for road racing. Has anyone been running this setup on the 4.6 3V (or otherwise) and have comments. While I'll appreciate any comments, I plan on using this for Road Racing, no Drag Racing...I currently spin my car from 3500-6800 several times per lap for 1/2 hour sessions. I am running a stock bottom end...so 7-9 psi max.



Looking for:

1. Installation issues/challenges
2. Heat Soak issues...specifically with Road Racing
3. Longevity -7000 redline (usually 6800 shift point)
4. Tunes - hp/tq numbers
5. other comments.

Thanks!

Mods: I posted this in 4.6 tech originally. However, thought it should belong here as I am asking about Road Racing, not the 4.6 specifically.

 

[FR500GT]

Do a search for Kaldar142. He ran a Procharger on the track for a while and has quite a few posts about his personal experiences.

 

[Mike K]

As does Marc S

 

[warpig12354]

Nvm

 

[NEMustang]

Do a search for Kaldar142. He ran a Procharger on the track for a while and has quite a few posts about his personal experiences.

Thanks! I searched before for info and only found Drag Racing stuff...searched with Kaldar142 and found some thread with Road Racing info..Thanks for the tip

As does Marc S

I had already PMd Marc S and he responded quickly...Thanks!

Got some Vettes and other FIs that are beating me on the straights...not for long!

 

[jymontoya]

Heat soak is definitely an issue. I'm going to try a larger intercooler next season to see if I can get more than 2 good laps before the IAT's get above 165*. When that happens, the car looses a lot of power, and it feels barely faster than my old 97' Cobra. That's shifting at ~ 6300rpms, there's nothing left up top worth chasing. I'm only at 6psi on a Saleen SC too... Those Prochargers have a poor intake design, which sucks in hot engine air and have only the single intercooler... I can't see how that would last on a RR track.

Funny, I've long looked at your signature and thought, I might want to sell my S/C, get those Comp 127500 Cams and FRPP intake, K member, and call it even with the weight loss and power loss. I guess you've found that even that isn't enough?

 

[19COBRA93]

I've got a Rotrex kit for sale that would be perfect for this. I've run this setup twice on my car and I REALLY like it.

http://www.forcedairperformance.com/supercharger/mustang.html

 

[jymontoya]

I always really liked the Rotrex kit. It's a super easy install, if you just want something to try out. However, I thought Forced Air Performance went out of business?? Their site hasn't been updated since 2008.

 

[19COBRA93]

I always really liked the Rotrex kit. It's a super easy install, if you just want something to try out. However, I thought Forced Air Performance went out of business?? Their site hasn't been updated since 2008.

They're still kicking. They just focus on the snowmobile stuff. But they still sell kits for the Mustang. The kit I have I just bought last year and it has the new C38-92 head unit which just came out. I think I was the first one to run that new head unit.

 

[Department Of Boost]

It doesn’t matter what compressor you use (PD blower, Centri, turbo, etc) as long as the compressor is not outside its efficiency range (like trying to make 450rwhp with a M90 for example) “X” psi will create “X” heat. So when looking at heat soak, which is a stone cold bitch when running at the RR track you need to be looking at what intercooler setup will work best for you. On a good note 9-10psi does not create a lot of heat. But you are not going to get away with any of the “as delivered” intercooler setups that come with the blower kits out there. None of them were set up around RR use.

I couldn’t tell you which direction to go when it comes to a blower. I don’t have enough experience with all of them. But I can tell you that keeping IAT’s down will be your biggest, maybe only problem. You are going to want to throw buckets of time, money and ingenuity at keeping them down. We have been battling IAT’s on my blue car since the beginning of time and a saying has come from it. Around here we all say “You need to take as many bites of the apple as you can, no matter how small or insignificant they seem”. At the end of the day you will not be able to keep IAT’s as low as you would like, so you have to attack EVERYTHING!

For example, a street elbow (fitting) may be the easiest way to make a connection. But you want to figure out how to use a nice 90 with a wide radius. It doesn’t seem like much, it is just a small bite at the apple, but those are the details that add up. A street elbow flows about 30% less than a nice 90. That is a big difference when you are trying to get every last little bit you can, and there may be 4-6 of them in the system.

All that being said if my blue car was a dedicated track car (it’s not) it would have a NA BOSS 302 motor in it. The blower is fun but most of the time it is way over powered (but fun) on a RR track and keeping it cool is a constant battle.

If you saw my cooling system you would say “HELL NO!” and stay NA.

Good luck.

 

[19COBRA93]

“You need to take as many bites of the apple as you can, no matter how small or insignificant they seem”

it is just a small bite at the apple, but those are the details that add up.

This is exactly right, and also applies to drag racing and corner carving, and anything else you're looking for improvement in. One thing or another by themselves might not seem significant, but when you start doing them all and adding them together, the difference is big. So there's no "one" answer when attacking cooling, or performance, there are a lot of little answers (bites at the apple) that when added up all give you what you're looking for.

It's what separates the real fast guys from the kind of fast guys. The little things.

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

It doesn’t matter what compressor you use (PD blower, Centri, turbo, etc) as long as the compressor is not outside its efficiency range (like trying to make 450rwhp with a M90 for example) “X” psi will create “X” heat. So when looking at heat soak, which is a stone cold bitch when running at the RR track you need to be looking at what intercooler setup will work best for you. On a good note 9-10psi does not create a lot of heat. But you are not going to get away with any of the “as delivered” intercooler setups that come with the blower kits out there. None of them were set up around RR use.

I couldn’t tell you which direction to go when it comes to a blower. I don’t have enough experience with all of them. But I can tell you that keeping IAT’s down will be your biggest, maybe only problem. You are going to want to throw buckets of time, money and ingenuity at keeping them down. We have been battling IAT’s on my blue car since the beginning of time and a saying has come from it. Around here we all say “You need to take as many bites of the apple as you can, no matter how small or insignificant they seem”. At the end of the day you will not be able to keep IAT’s as low as you would like, so you have to attack EVERYTHING!

For example, a street elbow (fitting) may be the easiest way to make a connection. But you want to figure out how to use a nice 90 with a wide radius. It doesn’t seem like much, it is just a small bite at the apple, but those are the details that add up. A street elbow flows about 30% less than a nice 90. That is a big difference when you are trying to get every last little bit you can, and there may be 4-6 of them in the system.

All that being said if my blue car was a dedicated track car (it’s not) it would have a NA BOSS 302 motor in it. The blower is fun but most of the time it is way over powered (but fun) on a RR track and keeping it cool is a constant battle.

If you saw my cooling system you would say “HELL NO!” and stay NA.

Good luck.

This is what I was going to get at, even in the Miata world, it's incredibly difficult to keep FI cars cool for 20-30 minute sessions on a road course.

You can do it, but it takes a TON of $$$$ invested in cooling and airflow.


Why not do a built Coyote swap and stay NA?

If guys are beating you down the straights, then work on keeping your corner speeds up.

 

[Dreadknought]

Ok, that being said, I was under the understanding that a roots style blower under lower boost would do better with IATs than say a Twin Screw at the same boost level.
Am I remembering this correctly? I'd also like to know the science behind this as well.

 

[FR500GT]

FWIW I ran a Saleen blower with basic mods including the 475hp upgrade and a AFCO heat exhanger. I ran the car all day at Buttonwillow in the 80*s without any signs of heat soak or power loss. Heatsoak was a huge concern for me in regards to road racing. I'm super OCD when it comes to having all the proper supporting mods but I was quite surprised when I didn't have any issues.

But there's always that big "if" and I also only did a couple of events with this setup. I'm sure after a few more rough days of thrashing the car around it would start to show more issues which is why I opted to stay NA on my current build.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Ok, that being said, I was under the understanding that a roots style blower under lower boost would do better with IATs than say a Twin Screw at the same boost level.
Am I remembering this correctly? I'd also like to know the science behind this as well.

Uh, oh. Here goes the roots vs twin screw vs TVS part of the thread.

My $.02. As soon as Eaton releases it's 3.3L TVS blower I will be removing my 3.4L Whipple twin screw.

The only time a twin screw is the most efficient is at WOT. EVERY other time a TVS is more efficient and will make less heat (boost).

Case in point, when downshifting/braking for a corner a twin screw is making boost, and therefore heat. It makes boost still because it compresses the incoming air along the length of the screws. NO way to bypass that. A TVS while not quite (but close) as efficient as a twin screw at WOT does not make ANY boost while downshifting/braking for a corner, and therefore is not generating heat from compressing air. A lap run with a twin screw produces more average heat than a TVS does.

I’ve seen my IAT’s jump 40deg downshifting for one corner with a twin screw. That’s a whole lot of heat to carry to the next apex considering it is making you ZERO HP.

Frankly turbo’s would probably be the best way to go. But there are all sorts of packaging issues and while they do reduce IAT’s (because they can make the same power with less boost) compared to a PD or even centri blower you now have a MASSIVE amount of underhood heat soak issues to deal with. You would need a lot of $$$$ in DEI or Thermo-Tec stuff just to keep things in check, if you could.

 

[Dreadknought]

Awesome. Just the kind of explanation I was looking for. I ask, because while I am NA at the moment, I hope in the not to distant future to go the SC route via a DOB manifold kit. At some point after that I was looking at whether to go KB or TVS after I built my block. I guess a VMP blower it will be.

 

[zquez]

When I ran the DOB kit with a stock 2011 GT500 HE last November, I didn't have any noticeable heat soak problems at all. (I was more focused on my heat soaked brakes) Next time I go out, I hope to do some logging to see what my IATs are like over a 20 minute session, but Im sure in the hotter months I'll want something better for cooling. You can never be too cool.

 

[knownukes]

I'll weigh in here. I run a 3.6 LC KB after running the 2.8 non LC unit. The LC was an improvement and I LOVE!!!!! my car. I ran HPDE about once a month for the last 2 years. I'm running the Revan Racing Radiator and Hx(sold by Shelby) which is the dual fan, double core setup. I think it's the best cooling setup on the market. The fans are set to come on with the ignition(not on temp) and my thermostat is set to open at a lower temp. With all that, I still get heat soak in warm temps(above 80 degrees ambient). If I short shift I can hold it off, but if I go hard, in 2 laps I start losing power. I run VIR & Summit Point most of the time. VIR is worse because of the long straights and more WO time, but it happens at both tracks. The better you get at driving, the longer you will be at full throttle, the faster the heat soak comes on. When it's cool outside, it's alot of fun. But most of the driving season is in the summer and that makes it tough. If I had it to do all over again, I would not go with a FI car. I'd build a monster NA motor and have fun with that. The heat issues are a killer. NA in the long run is cheaper. Also, one thing you probably arent considering is fuel octane and mpg. Once you start making big hp and heat, you will need to run 98 or higher octane fuel to fight off predetonation and grenading your motor. I know 2 people who have done this with FI motors and both teardowns showed heat due to predetonation. So I just run the 102 octane just as insurance. I have never had a problem, but the stuff is $7.5-$8/gallon. That SC forces air and FUEL into the cylinders. In a 25 minute session, I will use 10-12 gallons of fuel. That's $75 plus per session in fuel. Yes my tune is a tad rich, but rich is cooler and also helps with predetonation. There is alot to running FI motors and making them last. Cooling is critical, as well as your knock sensing setup. I had experienced, knowledgable people do my setup and as I said I havent had any problems. But I know quite a few people who have had problems. You cant just bolt on a bunch of hp w/o taking care of the total package.

Think long and hard about it. 20-30 minutes is alot longer than a 10 second 1/4 mile run. People are experimenting with meth injection. I dont have any data on that. But, it's just another complication and more weight on the front end(which is something we didnt even discuss).

Goodluck with your decision.

 

[RocketcarX]

I wouldn't mind hearing some feed back related to the OPs question. How does the procharger faire in this environment?

 

[pcdrj]

I'll weigh in here. I run a 3.6 LC KB after running the 2.8 non LC unit. The LC was an improvement and I LOVE!!!!! my car. I ran HPDE about once a month for the last 2 years. I'm running the Revan Racing Radiator and Hx(sold by Shelby) which is the dual fan, double core setup. I think it's the best cooling setup on the market. The fans are set to come on with the ignition(not on temp) and my thermostat is set to open at a lower temp. With all that, I still get heat soak in warm temps(above 80 degrees ambient). If I short shift I can hold it off, but if I go hard, in 2 laps I start losing power. I run VIR & Summit Point most of the time. VIR is worse because of the long straights and more WO time, but it happens at both tracks. The better you get at driving, the longer you will be at full throttle, the faster the heat soak comes on. When it's cool outside, it's alot of fun. But most of the driving season is in the summer and that makes it tough. If I had it to do all over again, I would not go with a FI car. I'd build a monster NA motor and have fun with that. The heat issues are a killer. NA in the long run is cheaper. Also, one thing you probably arent considering is fuel octane and mpg. Once you start making big hp and heat, you will need to run 98 or higher octane fuel to fight off predetonation and grenading your motor. I know 2 people who have done this with FI motors and both teardowns showed heat due to predetonation. So I just run the 102 octane just as insurance. I have never had a problem, but the stuff is $7.5-$8/gallon. That SC forces air and FUEL into the cylinders. In a 25 minute session, I will use 10-12 gallons of fuel. That's $75 plus per session in fuel. Yes my tune is a tad rich, but rich is cooler and also helps with predetonation. There is alot to running FI motors and making them last. Cooling is critical, as well as your knock sensing setup. I had experienced, knowledgable people do my setup and as I said I havent had any problems. But I know quite a few people who have had problems. You cant just bolt on a bunch of hp w/o taking care of the total package.

Think long and hard about it. 20-30 minutes is alot longer than a 10 second 1/4 mile run. People are experimenting with meth injection. I dont have any data on that. But, it's just another complication and more weight on the front end(which is something we didnt even discuss).

Goodluck with your decision.

Pretty much my experience. Incidentally the dual fan only helps on the paddock but actually obstructs flow on track.

I'm running Saleen s/c, AFCO h/e, oversized radiator, custom thermostat, Tiger hood and we modified the s/c tank to improve flow. Timing is rich and I run 100 octane. Never got around to doing aero with a belly pan which would help efficiency as well.

We data logged ODB2 for ECT, IAT temps, timing, etc and Traqmate for HP and lap time comparisons.

Running 13 PSI boost we lost 100 hp once it got hot. We dropped from 13 PSI to 9 so slow down the s/c and actually made more power at temp.

If I had to do it again, 5.0 Boss motor on 93 pump gas. The rest is in the shoe.