TaylorGT's AutoX Progress Thread

[claudermilk]

Huh I didn't know that.

When I was installing mine, the roush instructions said there would be an additional piece to trim off the 13/14 side skirts in the rear. My driver side install went as planned, but the passenger side had the weird mud flap thing near the rear that the roush instructions said were a 13/14 trim peice. I suppose its possible their instructions were misleading.

So I guess I don't have anything to blame it on.

Yeah, there is a little mudflap/air deflector that sits in front of the rear wheels on the 13/14. Both of mine are ripped off now--they just caught gravel on the track & got tweaked into the way. I suppose I should replace them.

 

[TaylorGT]

You can't accurately set C/O's with the bars connected - you'll nearly always end up with the bar stiffnesses fighting your spring adjustments without a lot of chassis height changes occurring (and you may keep turning things until they're way out of symmetry). Disconnect the bars, reset the spring heights, and re-connect the bars. You'll want adjustable endlinks so that they can be fitted with zero preload (and won't change corner weights or ride heights).

Ideally, you do the spring adjusting with cornerweighting scales and balance the corner weights as good as possible rather than match suspension heights.

Not sure what you'd shoot for if the chassis is 'tweaked' a bit.


Norm

So I'm going to repeat what I need to do, to verify I understand. Get the car off the ground, pull the wheels, disconnect the bars, loosen the set screws, adjust the coilovers to match, reinstall the bars, then put the wheels on and set it back down and check ride height? If it's not level, I need to repeat the above process on the side I'm needing to adjust? Baseically any time I made a coilover adjustmen the sta-bar needs to be removed?

The rear is pretty much set, seeing as the adjustments are all the way down. Only opitons I have back there is to either remove the adjustment collar from the sleve and sit the sprin gdirectly on the sleeve base, or remove the sleeve and adjuster completely..

 

[TaylorGT]

Out of curiousity, to install the strut, we had to jack up the entire strut assembly way up in order to allow it to be installed onto the front end link because the link was so long. The adjustable ones can be made to be shorter, so you don't have to do that?

I guess is there a good write up somewhere so I can understand the best way to properly adjust the front sway end links?

 

[Boaisy]

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=551

and I think Terry had posted on how to set them up properly. Gimmie a couple minutes, and I can probably find it.

EDIT: http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112092&highlight=sway+bar+endlink+preload

Pretty much, you shouldn't have to "force" the end links into their respective holes. They should just pop in with little effort when the suspension is under load.

 

[TaylorGT]

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=551

and I think Terry had posted on how to set them up properly. Gimmie a couple minutes, and I can probably find it.

EDIT: http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112092&highlight=sway+bar+endlink+preload

Pretty much, you shouldn't have to "force" the end links into their respective holes. They should just pop in with little effort when the suspension is under load.

So when we installed, we essentially jacked up the a-arm/strut base until we compressed the suspension enough to slide the end link right in and what I'm hearing is ideally we should ahve the wheel installed, and be able to reach in and put the end link in without force? That seems too simple, but I didn't completely follow the conversation in that thread.

I dont' understand installing normal on one side then adjusting on the other. I need someone to spell it out in steps lol

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Okay, maybe I can help...

The whole concept with the sta-bar and the endlinks is to have them effectively doing NOTHING when the car is just sitting, at static ride height. If you do anything to load one side of the suspension, that will bring the bar into play.

Start by getting the car up in the air, and then disconnect the end-link from the bar on one side (dosen't matter which), then get the car back on the ground. ANY time you're doing suspension adjustments and you jack up the car, for ANY reason, you need to "settle" the suspension, so roll the car forward a couple of feet, and then back. Now, take your ride-height measurements. There are a variety of ways of doing this; measure from the ground to the end of the K-member, or from the hub centerline to the fender, or from the fender to the ground. If your primary focus is suspension geometry, use the K-member. If it's aesthetics, then the fender, unless you know, for a fact, that the fenders are exactly even. FWIW, until I wrecked mine last time, there was a 3/32" variation in my fender-ground height from side to side relative to the chassis. Whatever method you use, make sure it's repeatable. Lift the car, adjust the coil-overs to get your desired ride-height, drop the car, settle it, then measure to verify. When you're done with the ride-height stuff, re-attach the end link that you disconnected earlier, and then null it out if it's adjustable. To null it out, loosen both jamb nuts completely, drop the car, settle, then spin the adjuster by hand (reaching around the tire) until you find the point of least resistance. It'll start out feeling tight, then get looser and looser, then start getting tight again. Spin it back and forth to find that null point. Lightly snug the adjusters, then lift the car, tighten them, drop and settle, then verify you can rotate the endlink slightly by hand with relative ease. Done.

With that accomplished, at static ride-height the sta-bar is putting no force into the suspension.

As Norm mentioned, best practice is to do this with the car on a set of scales, and once the raw ride height is established, make tweaks to get the cross-weights (LF+RR vs. RF+LR) as close to even as you can get them. THEN null out the front AND rear bars.

IF you had such a massive variation side-to-side with your coilover seat heights, then either you had the bar in play (likely) or something is bent. Once you adjust the ride heights, the bar may or may not "just slip in" with both front wheels hanging in the air, or it may take just a little bit of lift on one side to get the stud through the bar. Don't worry over-much at that point. It's when the car is sitting on the ground (and settled!) that counts.

 

[SlowJim]

Did I miss where you say what front bar you are running, or is it still stock? It sounds to me like you need adjustable endlinks at a minimum. The Whiteline front bar includes them so ends up being about $100 cheaper than BMR IIRC.

 

[TaylorGT]

Okay, maybe I can help...

The whole concept with the sta-bar and the endlinks is to have them effectively doing NOTHING when the car is just sitting, at static ride height. If you do anything to load one side of the suspension, that will bring the bar into play.

Start by getting the car up in the air, and then disconnect the end-link from the bar on one side (dosen't matter which), then get the car back on the ground. ANY time you're doing suspension adjustments and you jack up the car, for ANY reason, you need to "settle" the suspension, so roll the car forward a couple of feet, and then back. Now, take your ride-height measurements. There are a variety of ways of doing this; measure from the ground to the end of the K-member, or from the hub centerline to the fender, or from the fender to the ground. If your primary focus is suspension geometry, use the K-member. If it's aesthetics, then the fender, unless you know, for a fact, that the fenders are exactly even. FWIW, until I wrecked mine last time, there was a 3/32" variation in my fender-ground height from side to side relative to the chassis. Whatever method you use, make sure it's repeatable. Lift the car, adjust the coil-overs to get your desired ride-height, drop the car, settle it, then measure to verify. When you're done with the ride-height stuff, re-attach the end link that you disconnected earlier, and then null it out if it's adjustable. To null it out, loosen both jamb nuts completely, drop the car, settle, then spin the adjuster by hand (reaching around the tire) until you find the point of least resistance. It'll start out feeling tight, then get looser and looser, then start getting tight again. Spin it back and forth to find that null point. Lightly snug the adjusters, then lift the car, tighten them, drop and settle, then verify you can rotate the endlink slightly by hand with relative ease. Done.

With that accomplished, at static ride-height the sta-bar is putting no force into the suspension.

As Norm mentioned, best practice is to do this with the car on a set of scales, and once the raw ride height is established, make tweaks to get the cross-weights (LF+RR vs. RF+LR) as close to even as you can get them. THEN null out the front AND rear bars.

IF you had such a massive variation side-to-side with your coilover seat heights, then either you had the bar in play (likely) or something is bent. Once you adjust the ride heights, the bar may or may not "just slip in" with both front wheels hanging in the air, or it may take just a little bit of lift on one side to get the stud through the bar. Don't worry over-much at that point. It's when the car is sitting on the ground (and settled!) that counts.

Thank you for this reply. I'm sitting here in a massive facepalm at the moment. We did it all wrong. Due to jack limitations (no low pro) and how low my car is the front of the car was driven up on wooden ramps. We jacked up the car car by the pinch weld and did each side one at a time. With the sway bar connected so you're damn right it was in play lol. Holy cow I need to fix that.

Now to clarify, you only adjusted/touched one sway bar end link. So the other one can stay as is even though its adjustable?

Did I miss where you say what front bar you are running, or is it still stock? It sounds to me like you need adjustable endlinks at a minimum. The Whiteline front bar includes them so ends up being about $100 cheaper than BMR IIRC.

Its a stock front sway. I've got the whiteline adjustable end links in my shopping cart as we speak.

 

[Norm Peterson]

As soon as you remove one end of either endlink, the bar cannot apply any forces. Worst case, it will simply rotate inside the chassis bushings with only a little bit of resistance due to friction/stiction that you can safely ignore.


Norm.

 

[TaylorGT]

Update 6.29.15: Alignment

Got the alignment done over lunch, barely. We had a helluva time getting this thing on the rack. We could only get the drivers side to -1.9 (I was having them shoot for -1.6). So we set both sides even with just a hair of positive toe. Drives much better now.

Wish for street driving we could have got the camber adjusted a bit better.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Thank you for this reply. I'm sitting here in a massive facepalm at the moment. We did it all wrong. Due to jack limitations (no low pro) and how low my car is the front of the car was driven up on wooden ramps. We jacked up the car car by the pinch weld and did each side one at a time. With the sway bar connected so you're damn right it was in play lol. Holy cow I need to fix that.

Now to clarify, you only adjusted/touched one sway bar end link. So the other one can stay as is even though its adjustable?

Yup. It happens. Jacking up one side at a time will create havoc trying to get the endlinks unloaded. That certainly explains why you had such difficulty putting it back together, as well as why the spring perch heights were so radically different.

Yes, technically, you don't need TWO adjustable end-links to null out the bar, BUT the joints soooo much better than on the stockers, you might as well install them as a pair. Doing the install, get it up on jackstands (SEE NOTE BELOW FIRST!!!) and adjust one endlink (say, driver's side for now) so that the adjustment range is roughly in the middle of the Heim studs, and lock it down. THEN do the other side (passenger) and leave the jamb nuts backed off all the way. Reassemble, set ride height, null out the bar, tighten the jambs on the passenger side. Done.

NOTE: You're going to have to do the dis-assembly the same way you did the assembly, and watch how much tension there is on the bar when you break loose the endlink... IIRC the stock bar is close to 600lbs/in of force, so if the one side is jacked down 2", that's 1200lbs of potential energy stored in that bar. Bust the endlink loose, and WHAM, that thing can take a finger or two as it unloads. Be careful! Tip: With one corner on a jackstand, start to loosen the endlink nut, but no more than one turn. THEN use your jack under the control arm and jack up until the stud can be rattled slightly. That'll tell you the tension is off. With the tension on, it'll cock the stud as you loosen the nut and NEVER feel like it's breaking loose until it all comes very suddenly apart.

NOTE 2: Before you do the disassembly, take VERY accurate ride-height measurements on each side (+/- 1/32" max), and adjust your suspension back to those EXACT numbers, or you can throw the alignment right out the window and start over again. Also, remember to settle the car any time you lift it... Ride height absolutely affects camber, which in turn affects toe.

Its a stock front sway. I've got the whiteline adjustable end links in my shopping cart as we speak.

Not going to be a terrible idea. Before you push the "buy me!" button, pop over to Stranoparts.com and look at the UMI adjustable endlinks he sells. VERY beefy, extremely good value for the money. IIRC, the Whiteline pieces are ball/socket joint, but the UMI are high-misalignment Heim joints. IMO, the Heim is a MUCH better design than the ball/socket.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Before you push the "buy me!" button, pop over to Stranoparts.com and look at the UMI adjustable endlinks he sells. VERY beefy, extremely good value for the money. IIRC, the Whiteline pieces are ball/socket joint, but the UMI are high-misalignment Heim joints. IMO, the Heim is a MUCH better design than the ball/socket.

This ↑↑↑

I've had a pair of the UMIs on my car for a little over 5 years. Daily driving, rain, winters, a little autocross, and some track time. And for anybody who fears rod end rattle over time in DD service, they're still rattle-free.

There is just a little maintenance though. Two or three times a year I work a little WD-40 into each rod end, as they do stiffen up a bit over time if you don't and you could get a little noise from that if you run them out of rotational travel. You should probably be under there at least that often doing oil changes and inspecting other stuff, so it's not like this adds any separate PITA little job to do on a fixed schedule.

Since they mount with bolts rather than integral studs, you can probably put the bolt heads out on the tire side if the bolts you get are actually too long and stick out like the OE studs (that people have had to shorten).


Norm

 

[TaylorGT]

Yup. It happens. Jacking up one side at a time will create havoc trying to get the endlinks unloaded. That certainly explains why you had such difficulty putting it back together, as well as why the spring perch heights were so radically different.

Yes, technically, you don't need TWO adjustable end-links to null out the bar, BUT the joints soooo much better than on the stockers, you might as well install them as a pair. Doing the install, get it up on jackstands (SEE NOTE BELOW FIRST!!!) and adjust one endlink (say, driver's side for now) so that the adjustment range is roughly in the middle of the Heim studs, and lock it down. THEN do the other side (passenger) and leave the jamb nuts backed off all the way. Reassemble, set ride height, null out the bar, tighten the jambs on the passenger side. Done.

NOTE: You're going to have to do the dis-assembly the same way you did the assembly, and watch how much tension there is on the bar when you break loose the endlink... IIRC the stock bar is close to 600lbs/in of force, so if the one side is jacked down 2", that's 1200lbs of potential energy stored in that bar. Bust the endlink loose, and WHAM, that thing can take a finger or two as it unloads. Be careful! Tip: With one corner on a jackstand, start to loosen the endlink nut, but no more than one turn. THEN use your jack under the control arm and jack up until the stud can be rattled slightly. That'll tell you the tension is off. With the tension on, it'll cock the stud as you loosen the nut and NEVER feel like it's breaking loose until it all comes very suddenly apart.

NOTE 2: Before you do the disassembly, take VERY accurate ride-height measurements on each side (+/- 1/32" max), and adjust your suspension back to those EXACT numbers, or you can throw the alignment right out the window and start over again. Also, remember to settle the car any time you lift it... Ride height absolutely affects camber, which in turn affects toe.

Not going to be a terrible idea. Before you push the "buy me!" button, pop over to Stranoparts.com and look at the UMI adjustable endlinks he sells. VERY beefy, extremely good value for the money. IIRC, the Whiteline pieces are ball/socket joint, but the UMI are high-misalignment Heim joints. IMO, the Heim is a MUCH better design than the ball/socket.

This ↑↑↑

I've had a pair of the UMIs on my car for a little over 5 years. Daily driving, rain, winters, a little autocross, and some track time. And for anybody who fears rod end rattle over time in DD service, they're still rattle-free.

There is just a little maintenance though. Two or three times a year I work a little WD-40 into each rod end, as they do stiffen up a bit over time if you don't and you could get a little noise from that if you run them out of rotational travel. You should probably be under there at least that often doing oil changes and inspecting other stuff, so it's not like this adds any separate PITA little job to do on a fixed schedule.

Since they mount with bolts rather than integral studs, you can probably put the bolt heads out on the tire side if the bolts you get are actually too long and stick out like the OE studs (that people have had to shorten).


Norm

Wow, I'm loving this discussion guys, I have a pretty clear picture of what to do now which really helps. This is going on the shortest for this car. I haven't purchased any end links yet. I'll check out the UMI end links and see what I think.

Luckily these parts aren't too expensive, won't kill my budget completely. I need seats next.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Just posting up my opinion here so take it for what you feel it may be worth. I should also mention up front that I mean this with the best intentions and not trying to be a dick.

I think if your trying to get at least semi-serious about the handling of your car you may want to VERY seriously consider raising the ride height up A LOT from where it is now based on the pics. Using my eyeball ruler I would guess you are probably at or over 2" of drop in the front alone.

Anything more then 1.5" at the lowest point in the front and your not going to be doing yourself any favors. You may even be able to achive a proper street alignment afterwards by doing so which will save you thousands of dollars in tires over the life of the car.

The slammed look will certainly be cool in the mall parking lot but I don't believe you will be winning any AutoX trophies along the way by going that route. But at the end of the day it is YOUR car and I'm just some shmoe on the Internet so take this advice as you wish.

 

[csamsh]

I need seats next.

I've got some cobras.... the passenger side even has brackets and a base ready to go!!!

 

[TaylorGT]

Just posting up my opinion here so take it for what you feel it may be worth. I should also mention up front that I mean this with the best intentions and not trying to be a dick.

I think if your trying to get at least semi-serious about the handling of your car you may want to VERY seriously consider raising the ride height up A LOT from where it is now based on the pics. Using my eyeball ruler I would guess you are probably at or over 2" of drop in the front alone.

Anything more then 1.5" at the lowest point in the front and your not going to be doing yourself any favors. You may even be able to achive a proper street alignment afterwards by doing so which will save you thousands of dollars in tires over the life of the car.

The slammed look will certainly be cool in the mall parking lot but I don't believe you will be winning any AutoX trophies along the way by going that route. But at the end of the day it is YOUR car and I'm just some shmoe on the Internet so take this advice as you wish.

The ride height right now is not its perminant ride height. I have a few shows/meets coming up and I like the stance as is. We have an autocross event coming up on 7/19 that I plan to attend and thats about it.

I'm waiting on the heavy 20x9/10 AG wheels to sell, then will be getting a set of 18x11 forgestars. At that time, the ride height will be set to be much more track oriented.

I've got some cobras.... the passenger side even has brackets and a base ready to go!!!

Do you have a F/S thread? Wouldn't mind taking a look. What are you asking?

 

[csamsh]

Do you have a F/S thread? Wouldn't mind taking a look. What are you asking?

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123354

 

[frank s]

With Regard to the front stabilizer bar adjustable end-links:

Is it worth adding the driver's weight to the front seat prior to "normalizing" the links' length?

 

[Mark Aubele]

I would. With 550lb springs my car still lowers over 1/8" when I am sitting in the drivers seat.

 

[csamsh]

I would. With 550lb springs my car still lowers over 1/8" when I am sitting in the drivers seat.

Agreed, especially since driver weight is added only on one side of the car, and is precisely the kind of weight addition that will influence preload.