Using tuner to go E85??

07stangcs

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Is this really possible?? Just by different tuning you can convert your car to E85? I use a Predator often and saw this clip just recently and wondered if its really possible. Ive seen some high HP cars do it with great results but figured there was more to it than just a tune. Heres the clip.

 
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I didn't watch the clip, but I can say that you will need to obviously change your actual tune file, but will need to upgrade your fuel system too, as it takes nearly 1.5 times as much fuel to support the same power as you were making on gasoline....
 

big-j

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ya i read that in my mag to and have rly ben thinkin bout doin this but what all do you need to replace and how much money we lookin at? there a gas station in town that sells e85 so i can get it thats not a prob.
 

s8v4o

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Well technically it doesn't make the car a "flex fuel" vehicle as mentioned in the interview. Flex fuel vehicles run E85 and gasoline in any ratios. Flex fuel vehicles have sensors that measure the amount of ethanol in the fuel and the computer adjusts automatically, hence "flex fuel".

I've thought about running E85 in my car. The only thing that sucks is I'm not really sure how far the factory fuel system will take me. Even with bigger injectors I don't think the pump can feed a full bolton car. Anybody have any real world numbers?
 
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07stangcs

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I have a pretty decent fuel system. I just here you can make really good power with e85. Wondering how it will work with nitrous. Is it even possible with nitrous.
 

NastyStang113

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I tested it out a while back on my car when it had bolt ons. I was considering using it for a cheap alternative to race fuel. The main thing is you're going to need a good tune and it takes more 'fuel' so you need to make sure you can supply it with enough fuel. I was only making a little bit more than 300 rwhp so the factory fuel system was enough. Who knows how long it'll take before you start seeing problems since E85 is caustic. Gas mileage does decrease significantly, roughly 4-5 mpg.

93vsE85.jpg


Here's an article that VMP did about the results from my car.

I have been wanting to play with E85 for a couple of years now. Cental Florida has been slow to get it, it has not been available until just recently. I found out on Friday it can be purchased from the Turkey Lake Service plaza on the turnpike (3.49 gal on 7/4/08). Until now, it was only available in Tallahassee, recently Miami, and at a biofuels distributor in Lake City. On my way back from Texas last month I picked up a barrel from the bio fuels distributor in Lake City (N. Florida) for testing, these guys mix their own E85 so it is very consistent fuel. Most E85 pumps claim up to 70% ethanol, so you *should* be getting E85 in the summer and E70 in the winter, which is enough of a difference to require a tune change.

E85 is cheaper by the gallon, but due to the 20-40% fuel economy loss, it's not usually any cheaper overall. There are some things I can do to help with the fuel economy loss by applying my fuel economy tuning, but it only offsets the loss by 5-10% at most. The fuel economy loss is due to the much lower energy content of ethanol, it also means you need much more fuel by volume. E85 really taxes the fuel system, the stoich point of normal gasoline is 14.64, E85 is about 9.85, 14.64/9.85=1.48, so you need roughly 50% more fuel mass to run E85.

A discussion on fuel demands and supplies...

The stock 05+ Mustang GT and V6 Fuel pump is capable of delivering about 4lb/min of fuel. The stock 05+ pump is the "Focus pump" that we install in the older 99-04 cars as an upgrade, it flows similar to the Ford GT pump and Aviator pumps.

A stock Mustang 05+ GT uses about 2.5lb/min of fuel peak, while a V6 uses about 1.7lb/min peak. The older 99-04 cars use just a little bit less than that.

2.5 lb/min fuel requirement on gasoline X 50% increased fuel demand for E85 = 3.75lb/min, which is how much fuel an 05+ GT should need to run E85, and my testing on Mike's car found that to be completely correct, which is still within the capacity of our stock pump.

The stock 05+ GT 24lb injectors aren't as well off as the stock pump, at the standard 40psi of fuel pressure they can only supply enough E85 up to about 5000RPM. If we do the math, they can only supply about 3.2 lb/min of fuel at 40psi. The workaround is to raise fuel pressure up to 50-60psi to get more flow out of them. The factory tune actually has all the parameters already set up to do this, so you don't actually need to change anything to get more out of them to run E85. Raising fuel pressure makes the pump work harder, but duty cycle still sits around 90-95% on E85.

The real value to us in E85 is the high octane rating, about 105. It is a very cheap race gas for boosted cars, assuming your fuel system is up to it. And based on our testing below, it seems to add power even in NA applications (more on that later).

Recently we put one of my local customers cars on the dyno to test E85 in it. He has an 08 Mustang GT Manual with a C&L Racer intake, CMCV deletes, stock cats, and magnapack mufflers. I made some baseline pulls on his 93 tune with around 12.7 A/F (.87 lambda), this car is able to run 30-31* of timing at WOT with no major knock sensor activity.

We then drained the tank and put in 8 gallons of E85.

I got the tune set up for E85 and dialed it in to run the same lambda that I was running on 93. I've found that a lambda of .86 to .89 (12.6 to 13.0 in gasoline terms) works best on these 3V motor. Going to .92 lambda on E85 (about 13.5 in gasoline terms) caused a power loss.

On E85 the car did not run significantly more timing, there may have been slightly less knock sensor retard, by 1/2 degree or so.

Now onto the results, the car gained 9RWHP and 9RWTQ on E85. This is totally suprises me, but is consistent with another 05+ GT owners results found here. The additional power could be from the oxygen locked up in the fuel, which is realeased during combustion or from the cooling effect of the greater fuel volume and the alcohol. On boosted cars, the gains will be even greater because of the additional timing that can be run on E85, due to the additional octane.

The alcohol in E85 is corrosive. The fuel systems in modern vehicles is designed to deal with a small amount of alcohol, 10%, which is now being found at many pumps in the form of E10 gasoline.

For short term use, E85 should not cause problems with fuel systems in newer non-FFV vehicles.
 
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s8v4o

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NastyStang113, did you run it ever with the 39# injectors? If so did you know the fuel pump duty cycle with the bigger injectors?
 

05yellowgt

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My personal experience showed that the stock fuel pump could support up to about 320-330rwhp with the addition of 39lb injectors on a bolt on car. At the time I made 310rwhp with Long tubes, Delete plates, and intake. If I were to have added underdrive pulleys and an electric water pump, I would have probably hit the 330 mark. My fuel pump was at about 90-95% duty cycle depending on which blend was available at the time.

Since our cars cannot be made fully flex fuel with the stock computer system you have to be mindful of the seasonal blend changes that E85 goes through. There are 3 distinct fuel blends ranging from winter blend (E70), spring blend (E74) and summer blend (E83). Depending on your location you could only get a month or two of summer blend or summer blend for most of the year. Here in Ohio this year E74 started hitting the pumps around the middle of October.

Now that I have upgraded my short block and added the blower and a triple pump fuel system with 80lb/hr injectors I have found the current max on my combo to be about 700rwhp. This same fuel system could support close to if not over 1000rwhp on race gas, it takes that much overhead to supply enough fuel with E85 and a power adder though. If I were to upgrade to larger injectors and drop my fuel pressure back to 39si I would be able to probably make about 800rwhp or so with the same fuel pumps.

E85 is not for everyone. First and foremost you need to have at least a decent supply in your area and you can just set your tune and forget it. I purchased an ethanol tester that tells me how much Ethanol I get at each fillup within 1/10 of 1% so I know which of my tunes to run so that I am not running rich or lean with each fillup. I also keep a close eye on my wideband.
 

adolph807359

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I got a tune from VMP. I was using it for about a year and found that I had to fuel up three times a week. Gas milage went down to 16mpg from 19-20mpg for 93 gas. I allso sprayed it a couple of times but my stock fuel sys coulndn't keep up. it did make a small amount of hp more but i dont like stoping so often to fuel up. my car has C&L racer intake,delete plates,long tubes,off road-H,U/D pulleies and SCT LIVEWIRE TUNER.
 

05yellowgt

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yeah you will lose mileage with E85. It only really comes into play for wanting an alternative to race gas. I gladly pay $2.15/gallon and only get 9-15mpg on my current setup vs. paying $10 a gallon for race gas to run the same boost and timing that I am now.
 

adolph807359

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Im in HOUSTON and found that sumer blend is used longer here. HEB sells E-85 cheaper than KROGERS. It really benifits more if you are F/I as it has a higher octane. i still use it off and on as gas prices jump all over the place and dont have any problems as of yet.
 

05yellowgt

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Yes places like Texas will have summer blend for a longer time because the weather stays warmer longer. You can get a pretty good idea by looking here.

http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html

I have not tested this myself yet but a Friend of mine said he has been able to get summer blend all year long from the local Kroger's. He lives in Cinci/Northern Kentucky. I have yet had a chance to test the Kroger's local to me yet (Dayton)
 

NastyStang113

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My personal experience showed that the stock fuel pump could support up to about 320-330rwhp with the addition of 39lb injectors on a bolt on car. At the time I made 310rwhp with Long tubes, Delete plates, and intake. If I were to have added underdrive pulleys and an electric water pump, I would have probably hit the 330 mark. My fuel pump was at about 90-95% duty cycle depending on which blend was available at the time.

That's interesting. I wonder how much of a difference it made with the 39 lb injectors? I was running the OEM 24 lbs injectors and OEM fuel pump and my fuel pump duty cycle was the same as you at 90-95%.
 

05yellowgt

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You could run a 900lb/hr injector and it won't change the fuel pump duty cycle. The only reason our duty cycles on the fuel pump would have differed would have been if your tune had the base fuel pressure raised to increase the flow capacity of the stock 24lb/hr injectors. I can pretty much say that your tune didn't do that since we saw identical duty cycles. The only reason I switched to 39lb injectors is because I got them for free and I didn't want to waste my time with the 24lb injectors only to find out that they were too small.
 

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