Voltage fluctuations

[DiMora]

Is your battery fully charged? 12.6v or better with cables disconnected, car off obviously. lol

If the battery is 50% or better discharged, but starts the car, measuring voltage is just pissing in the wind.

Brand new Interstate MTZ series AGM battery, fully charged.

 

[DiMora]

I believe I found the problem:

https://dimora.fotki.com/various_things/misc-junk/img-3804.html

I think the DOB-supplied alternator clutch pulley is bad? Shouldn’t it only free spin in one direction?

O’Reilly’s has a 6-rib that I can get in 5-7 days.

Anyone know if I can run an 8-rib on a 6-rib system?

I have two 8-rib clutched pulleys in my parts hoard:

 

[Juice]

Never heard of an alternator clutch.

 

[DieHarder]

I believe I found the problem:

https://dimora.fotki.com/various_things/misc-junk/img-3804.html

I think the DOB-supplied alternator clutch pulley is bad? Shouldn’t it only free spin in one direction? Ans: Yes, it's supposed to free spin in one direction only.

O’Reilly’s has a 6-rib that I can get in 5-7 days.

Anyone know if I can run an 8-rib on a 6-rib system?

I have two 8-rib clutched pulleys in my parts hoard:

 

[DieHarder]

Looks like you found your problem. You could use the 8 rib pulleys but if you do I'd keep an eye on the belt jumping ribs. If observation shows it's not a problem you should be able to run it until you can get a replacement pulley. Once you get it spinning again it'll be immediately obvious if the alternator is good or not.

 

[DiMora]

I got my car running and voltage is rock-solid now at 14.2 on my Aeroforce Interceptor. Whoo Hoo! That was it...alternator clutch pulley (one-way pulley) was bad. I sent a note to Jason at DOB to see if he can source me a couple of new 6-rib clutched pulleys and send my bulletproof Denso I bought from him back as I assume it works just fine as it is.

I called Ford today and they don't sell them (pulleys for the Denso with a manual) separately - only with an alternator as part of the whole assembly. The whole alternator with proper clutched pulley is Ford P/N 9R3Z-10346-B

It's kind of hard to find a 2010 Denso Ford alternator with a clutched pulley for a manual transmission - but I did it. It is an Autozone Duralast DL5608-6-11 which has the correct clutched alternator pulley and it is a Denso reman instead of a crap 6G alternator like my car originally had and is a match for P/N 9R3Z-10346-B. I had to cut the ears off of it, but it wasn't a big deal.

That means Skwerl's old alternator that I installed during troubleshooting is probably also fine (I was using the same bad pulley on it). That thing is P/N 7L7T-10300-AC - and it is off of a 2007-2008 Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator with the 5.4L 330CID engine. I had no idea that model could be used on our cars - but it can. You just can't use the rear support bracket because it is "clocked" different than the other Denso's. The one I have is powdercoated black and already had the ears cut off before the powdercoating, so it looks nice.

I'll post up more later to help others if they go down this road...I went through EVERYTHING - so I can give a pretty good step-by-step now...more this evening when I have time to post.

 

[DiMora]

Here's a troubleshooting checklist from start to finish:

1) Check (or replace) battery and check battery terminals for secure attachment, corrosion, and loose or broken connections

2) Check alternator pulley if it is a clutch-type like manual transmission vehicles require (remove belt and spin it...it should spin the alternator when spun clockwise and spin freely (not spin alternator) when you spin it counterclockwise if you are looking at the front ot the pulley

3) There are two grounds to check: One thick one (probably 4 AWG) that attaches from the passenger side strut tower to the passenger side engine mount bolts and one that attaches to the firewall near the middle of the car but biased toward the driver's side then to the driver's side of the engine - it's a thin mesh looking ground.

4) Check main alternator cable that goes from the big stud/nut on the back of the alternator (13mm I think) that runs to the battery (+)...inside of that cable is a fusible link under a bluish/grey section of the loom tubing. Most of the harness is coverd in split-loom; that bluish/grey piece that covers the fusible link is not split. You can upgrade that harness with one that has a 200 amp fuse if its integrity is in question at all. PA Performace sells one (American Muscle carries it). If you are blown order the GT500 one...otherwise they also sell one for N/A Mustangs.

5) Check the harness that plugs into the alternator and runs to a main engine wire harness plug. It has three wires and connects the car's computer (PCM/ECM/ECU whatever) to the voltage regulator which is built internally into the alternators on these cars.

I did all the above - and that is how I found my issue. Sadly, I never thought to check #2 until the very end. Would have saved me two-way shipping to Michigan to get a perfectly good alternator back to Jason at DOB. Hope that helps someone.

For my next electrical quest, I shall see if I can find a parasitic draw that kills my battery after a few days if I leave the car off a battery tender. I'll be ordering a Fluke inductive ammeter for that challenge. Love this car, hate its electrical system.

 

[Juice]

Your draw is most likely the sjb not going to "sleep".

 

[Pentalab]

Here's a troubleshooting checklist from start to finish:

1) Check (or replace) battery and check battery terminals for secure attachment, corrosion, and loose or broken connections

2) Check alternator pulley if it is a clutch-type like manual transmission vehicles require (remove belt and spin it...it should spin the alternator when spun clockwise and spin freely (not spin alternator) when you spin it counterclockwise if you are looking at the front ot the pulley

3) There are two grounds to check: One thick one (probably 4 AWG) that attaches from the passenger side strut tower to the passenger side engine mount bolts and one that attaches to the firewall near the middle of the car but biased toward the driver's side then to the driver's side of the engine - it's a thin mesh looking ground.

4) Check main alternator cable that goes from the big stud/nut on the back of the alternator (13mm I think) that runs to the battery (+)...inside of that cable is a fusible link under a bluish/grey section of the loom tubing. Most of the harness is coverd in split-loom; that bluish/grey piece that covers the fusible link is not split. You can upgrade that harness with one that has a 200 amp fuse if its integrity is in question at all. PA Performace sells one (American Muscle carries it). If you are blown order the GT500 one...otherwise they also sell one for N/A Mustangs.

5) Check the harness that plugs into the alternator and runs to a main engine wire harness plug. It has three wires and connects the car's computer (PCM/ECM/ECU whatever) to the voltage regulator which is built internally into the alternators on these cars.

I did all the above - and that is how I found my issue. Sadly, I never thought to check #2 until the very end. Would have saved me two-way shipping to Michigan to get a perfectly good alternator back to Jason at DOB. Hope that helps someone.

For my next electrical quest, I shall see if I can find a parasitic draw that kills my battery after a few days if I leave the car off a battery tender. I'll be ordering a Fluke inductive ammeter for that challenge. Love this car, hate its electrical system.

Why do the manual cars even require a clutch style pulley ?? Does that mean the automatic cars don't have a clutch style pulley ? What am I missing here ?

 

[DiMora]

Why do the manual cars even require a clutch style pulley ?? Does that mean the automatic cars don't have a clutch style pulley ? What am I missing here ?

Because the rapid RPM change during gear shifts can cause belt issues. They are called "OAD" pulleys (Overrunning Alternator Decoupling).

I think on an automatic you could run one - or not - but they are mandatory with a manual.

From manufacturer WAI describing this design:

"The Overrunning Alternator Decoupler (OAD) has an internal one-way clutch that incorporates a torsion spring designed to absorb the base engine vibrations before reaching the alternator’s rotor. With the installation of an OAD, you will notice less tensioner motion, reduced NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) plus an all around robust accessory drive. This will allow the use of a narrower belt with lower output tensioner that will result in longer life of the alternator, water pump and other accessories’ bearings.

Other benefits are:

• Belt: Stabilization of belt vibrations, Reduced force level on the belt
•Tensioning system: Reduced tensioning force and travel on tensioner
• Increased service life on belt and tensioner system
• Alternator : Reduced load on alternator bearings • Rotor is uncoupled
• System : Extended system life , Improved noise reduction and vibration dampening, Reduced idle speed to improve fuel economy"

 

[DiMora]

Your draw is most likely the sjb not going to "sleep".

Good info; thanks. What is the fix (assuming you have knowledge of this issue)...is it to replace the SJB?

 

[Juice]

Good info; thanks. What is the fix (assuming you have knowledge of this issue)...is it to replace the SJB?

I have extensive experience with the SJB. Just not as to why they dont go to sleep sometimes. Leaving key in ignition in OFF position will draw higher current.
It takes about 8 weeks of not starting the car where I notice battery volts getting low, so I assume that is the 'normal' behavior. My van is about the same.
I have measured current draw and IIRC, normal draw after sleep is about .15 Amps and 1+Amp before sleep. For about 5-15 minutes after key off, key removed.

 

[Pentalab]

Because the rapid RPM change during gear shifts can cause belt issues. They are called "OAD" pulleys (Overrunning Alternator Decoupling).

I think on an automatic you could run one - or not - but they are mandatory with a manual.

From manufacturer WAI describing this design:

"The Overrunning Alternator Decoupler (OAD) has an internal one-way clutch that incorporates a torsion spring designed to absorb the base engine vibrations before reaching the alternator’s rotor. With the installation of an OAD, you will notice less tensioner motion, reduced NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) plus an all around robust accessory drive. This will allow the use of a narrower belt with lower output tensioner that will result in longer life of the alternator, water pump and other accessories’ bearings.

Other benefits are:

• Belt: Stabilization of belt vibrations, Reduced force level on the belt
•Tensioning system: Reduced tensioning force and travel on tensioner
• Increased service life on belt and tensioner system
• Alternator : Reduced load on alternator bearings • Rotor is uncoupled
• System : Extended system life , Improved noise reduction and vibration dampening, Reduced idle speed to improve fuel economy"

Good info. I can get rapid rpm changes on my auto.....going up in gears....or esp going down in gears. I thought only the auto's had the OAD style pulleys. I'm now assuming both the Manual + auto get the same alternator.

On a similar note, I believe when the AC is on..and in use.....and gas mashed, the AC is temp kicked offline. I believe that's done in software....and Ford et all, pilfered the idea from BMW, who had it 1st.
That takes a huge load of the fead belt, esp if a 6 rib is used. The AC puts a huge load on the fead belt.
Even in winter, with hot air coming out on top, next to windshield, the AC is on.... but in de-humidifier mode.

 

[Juice]

AC gets disabled when PCM sees WOT. Been that way forever in PCM controlled AC.

 

[Pentalab]

AC gets disabled when PCM sees WOT. Been that way forever in PCM controlled AC.

Point taken. It's also the reason why the ...."killer chiller" setups don't work so good, esp at the dragstrip....and on a lot of road courses. I saw a u tube video, where the 'killer chiller' took a good 16 mins to get the temps way down, but it did finally get the water in the loop down to 40 F. Then it skyrocketed back up. On those setups, the HE is either removed, or bypassed, otherwise it just re-heats the water inside the HE / loop.

 

[Juice]

On the coyote, it looks like I can enable AC under full throttle. Not sure if that option is available in the 3v pcm.
You could hardwire a switch and run AC wot, but can the compressor take that kind of abuse? Thats a lot of rpms.

 

[Juice]

On the coyote, it looks like I can enable AC under full throttle. Not sure if that option is available in the 3v pcm.
You could hardwire a switch and run AC wot, but can the compressor take that kind of abuse? Thats a lot of rpms.

 

[07gts197]

Not that it matters but I wanted to throw some fuel on the fire. At one point Ford put clutched pulley mitzubishi alternators in their p71’s for the same reason. Watch any older video of cops and you’ll hear belt squeal while shifting at wide open throttle. If Ford didn’t use them on the auto mustangs I’d be surprised. I’m not saying anyone is wrong here just perplexed why Ford would do that.


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[DiMora]

My next door neighbor used to service county police cars...they all had autos...but he said they also used clutched alternator pulleys and that failures were quite common.

I did a lot of research and found some clutched pulleys that do indeed work on the Densos. I'm talking 6-rib here...there are 8-ribs that work as well...but there are a couple companies that make what I need.

Here are some part numbers in case someone wants to use a Denso alternator (since DOB is not selling them anymore). For manual transmission folks, you can pick up a Ford OEM 9R3Z-10346-B Denso alternator - which has the clutched pulley already installed. These are 150 amp models. DOB's "bulletproof" unit was 160 amps, was powdercoated black, and had the ears already cut off if you were boosted. You'll possibly have to cut the ears off these if boosted depending on your setup:

Autozone:
Duralast DL5608-6-11 (manual transmission)
Duralast DL2618-6-11 (auto transmission, non-clutched pulley)

Pulley part numbers for clutched pulleys:

WAI 24-82273 (WAI Global is the company)
Litens 920834-A (Litens is the OEM supplier for Chrysler and Toyota)

For the curious, that clutched pulley was used on the following vehicles:

Chrysler
Minivan RS/CS 3.3/3.8
Pacifica V6 3.8
Town&Country 3.3/3.8
Voyager 3.3/3.8/3.8i
Dodge Caravan
Pontiac Vibe 1.8
Toyota
Auris 1.6,-VVTI,-1.8
Avensis 1.6/1.8/2.0
Corolla 1.6,-VVTI,-1.8
Matrix 1.8
RAV 4 III 2.0
Verso 1.6/1.8

I share all the above because for many 2005-2009 cars, Ford used the piece-of-junk "6G" alternators that fail with great regularity (my car ate three in less than 50,000 miles); the Denso's are said to be MUCH better. Also, my posts on this forum kind of act like a personal notebook. I often find myself searching my own posts years later for what to do to fix a problem that re-appears.

I also have a theory that perhaps an impact wrench is not a good idea on a clutched pulley? Many people do it (and I did too per DOB's instructions), but maybe the ugga-duggas kill them? I decided to buy the factory recommended removal tool...it is the Miller Special Tools #8433A - and it does not require ugga-duggas!

 

[07gts197]

Great info here.


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