W3bb3r04's Coyote Swap Build Thread

[Deez-67]

Stock coyote block is good for 600-700hp with out block modifications. A stock 3v block will support 1200hp+ without block modifications. So if your just dropping in forged rods and pistons and a billet oil pump. Which one has more potential and bang for your buck?

Power to weight is all relative when modding. A built 2v will run times and trap with a 3v 4v. Now stock for stock na obviously the 5.0L 4v will have more potential. When a forged motor and boost is in the mix its anyones game.

If you want a better base platform not just block strength get a 2011 and you got a car you can safely run 600rwhp in if that's all you want. That's more cost effectively than these swap's I see. Although it is a cool factor of course like you mentioned.

See now some of this I didn't know and now my mind is changed YET AGAIN.

lol

 

[Greg Hazlett]

427 sideoiler or bust

Looks like he got the "bust" already...

 

[DILYSI Dave]

That's too bad. UDP especially Steeda are a common denominator with broken oil pump gears. If you find the time to collect data like the build clearances and oil used could you send it to me? I've been collecting info on broken gears to get an idea of what the commonalities are with a failure.

Is this limited to built motors, or are stock-ish / bolt-on motors susceptible? I've got a UDP sitting on the shelf waiting to go on to a bolt-on build, but not if it means I'm going to go boom.

 

[JoshK]

Just buy my engine RJ, be up and running again in no time.

 

[BruceH]

Is this limited to built motors, or are stock-ish / bolt-on motors susceptible? I've got a UDP sitting on the shelf waiting to go on to a bolt-on build, but not if it means I'm going to go boom.

It's believed to be harmonic related. A quality balancer and proper balancing should help. I wouldn't run udps unless they were from Innovators West or ATI. There really isn't a good reason to run them anyway.

I've never had forged pump gears and never had the stock ones fail. I'm of the opinion that if Ford doesn't do it with a factory warranted 600hp+ motor then I probably don't need to do it. With that said I also try to keep the factory specs when possible.

Have you heard of many na motors with failed pump gears? Do some research and see what comes up.

Excess end play could be part of the cause. I'm sure that slamming the crank into the pump wouldn't help matters. Boost spikes could cause more stress, so could high viscosity oil, sustained rpms, hooking up and bogging, etc.

I'm sure we could come up with a whole lot of guesses but that's all they are. I can't say if your setup would be safe or not. I can tell you that udps are involved with broken pump gears most of the time that I've asked people about their failures. I can also tell you that I have run them and had no noticeable gain. We really need a data set of failed pumps. I might of started a thread on the subject at one time. I'll have to do some searching.

 

[s8v4o]

Let me get one in the morning. I think it is a Steeda Underdrive. There is a grayish material between the inner and outside metal of the pulley and some of it is coming out. Ill see if I can find a pic online

That's too bad. UDP especially Steeda are a common denominator with broken oil pump gears. If you find the time to collect data like the build clearances and oil used could you send it to me? I've been collecting info on broken gears to get an idea of what the commonalities are with a failure.

Do you guys think the added heat from the turbo and plumbing right there could have added to the deterioration of the material in the UDP? Yeah I'm curious as well as to how many of these failures with regular NA engines.

 

[JeremyH]

Its possible, I haven't seen any solid link to it one way or another. I have heard of it killing the alternator sooner as well. We fixed that problem with the new kits.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

I vote for coyote, id rather have 425+ na than 325-350 na.

 

[BruceH]

Do you guys think the added heat from the turbo and plumbing right there could have added to the deterioration of the material in the UDP? Yeah I'm curious as well as to how many of these failures with regular NA engines.

Not sure about that but I've read more than a few instances of Steeda udps separating with na motors. However, they didn't cause pump gear failures.

 

[s8v4o]

Not sure about that but I've read more than a few instances of Steeda udps separating with na motors. However, they didn't cause pump gear failures.

Another thing I thought about while driving the other day is I wonder how many of the pump gear failures had a remote filter? As I'm wondering if moving the filter and adding extra plumbing is adding more stress to the gears? I know when I was big into the 2.3L turbo any changes to the oil pump would add a lot of extra stress to the intermediate shaft and they would often snap, especially with hi-volume pumps.

 

[JeremyH]

From what I have seen it has to do with harmonics in the drivetrain that gets the gerotor gears out of whack and shatters them. I would think the damper, crank and rotating assembly would apply much greater forces than any load from a relatively small increase in oil volume or pressure. Would a deeper pan and longer pickup tube do the same thing? The oil pump has an internal pressure bypass as well.

 

[BruceH]

From what I have seen it has to do with harmonics in the drivetrain that gets the gerotor gears out of whack and shatters them. I would think the damper, crank and rotating assembly would apply much greater forces than any load from a relatively small increase in oil volume or pressure. Would a deeper pan and longer pickup tube do the same thing? The oil pump has an internal pressure bypass as well.

The oil pressure would be a constant force with a cumulative effect. The bypass spring is fairly stout and would take a pretty good force to open, all of that force is also being applied to the gears.

Something I don't get is the powdered metal forging methods used in current manufacturing. I understand that it is economical and keeps metal stocks simple but it does have a finite strength so why is it used in engine parts that carry a load? Then again they do just fine in stock motors and exceed anything with old technology in power handling ability so maybe I'm just having tunnel vision.

It's too bad Ford doesn't offer a forged version motor as an option.

 

[JeremyH]

I would think production cost vs strength actually needed is really all it is.

 

[GallopingFord]

At this point, I agree with a NA 5.0 Coyote motor. Something different, but reliable.

 

[lito]

Best of luck on this RJ.

If you ask me, I dont how cost effective this swap is giving all the 3V parts you already had.

If you need any help, just ask.

 

[W3bb3r04]

At this point, I agree with a NA 5.0 Coyote motor. Something different, but reliable.

Sorry to say this build thread isn't really relevant now. I need to change the title and first post. I'm going to be staying 3v...

Best of luck on this RJ.

If you ask me, I dont how cost effective this swap is giving all the 3V parts you already had.

If you need any help, just ask.

Don't worry Lito. I'm staying 3v. There's a guy on the forum local to me that has a 10k mile stock shortblock and heads with goodies I'm going to be picking up. I'm going back NA but I'm still going to have you tune it for me. I'll fill you in on what I'm planning on.

 

[P-51 Performance]

Why not boost the stock 3v? You where at 9psi for a long time before you decided to build the block.

 

[W3bb3r04]

Why not boost the stock 3v? You where at 9psi for a long time before you decided to build the block.

It will come. Just not right now. I'm planning on adding Airlift this winter. Unless something changes that how the plan is. Otherwise a blower maybe purchased.

 

[Yuslowgt]

So pretty much if you're going to stay boosted stay with the three valve because it's a stronger motor? but if you're going to stay all motor you're better off going with the four valve coyote motor? Weird question but is it possible to get a 3v head to flow better then a aftermatket 4v heads?

 

[gray1622]

Draw two circle the same size. Then draw 3 circle in one and 4 in the other. Which one has more surface area.....