Which car for auto crossing/track days?

[TGR96]

Hey guys I am hoping to get some help here from the experieced experts...

I am really getting the itch to start doing auto crossing and some track days. I used to do a lot of track riding with my sport bike a few years back, but I had to get rid of it due to financial difficulties, and have been out of that scene for a while now. I don’t really want to go back to motorcycles. Rather I would like to switch to four wheels. My dilemma is, do I use my current car or should I buy a different car to use for this. I would like to hear some opinions from some of you all who are into this sort of thing to help me make my decision.

My current car is a 2007 GT/CS convertible automatic. It is a daily driver, and the relevant mods include Eibach Pro springs, struts and shocks, caster/camber plates, and my wheels are 20” ASA GT5’s with Nitto tires. The drivetrain is stock. I know that a convertible automatic is probably not the ideal auto crosser/track car. But on the other hand, it’s paid for and I absolutely love it. I will definitely NOT get rid of it to get another Mustang.

I can’t decide whether I should mod the Mustang to be a better autoXer/track car, or pick up a relatively cheap car to auto X and track with. I have been looking at second generation Miata’s, RX8’s, and early model S2000s. Of course, each option has its pros and cons.

My thoughts are as follows...if I just use my Mustang, I know that I will probably get some lighter 18” wheels and tires for playing, a four point roll bar (from what I have read, most track day organizations require a roll bar in convertibles), and maybe stiffer sway bars, some chassis stiffening reinforcement, like subframe connectors and possibly even a lightweight K member. So by the time I upgrade all these components for auto Xing or tracking, I could have just about paid for one of the aforementioned vehicles. And I don’t want to ruin the car as a DD. Plus, if I buy something like a used Miata, I probably would be more willing to push the limits when I am “playing” since I wouldn’t necessarily have to worry about driving it to work on Monday. Not be like Kyle Busch or anything, but not worried to run off track either. LOL

What would you guys do if you were in my shoes? Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Whiskey11]

Fox body + Griggs racing kit and a set of street able tires.

It shouldn't be hard to find "project fox bodies" on Craigslist for relatively low cost. With the Griggs kit it would actually handle very well and with the street able tires you could drive it to and from autocross and track days. I believe they would be C Prepared legal with the Griggs kit and a set of A6 tires in the trunk and back seat area would make it good and quick.

I just don't think a convertible would be a good choice for either. You can have fun with them for sure but they are not ideal.

Just my $0.02

 

[ct07gt]

I would go with your car as is, see how much you like it, and go from there. If you are happy with how your car feels, then stick with it. If you find a good deal on a miata or something like that to gut and turn into an auto-x car, then do that. No reason to run into either decision.

 

[TheKurgan]

There's a big difference between autocrossing and open tracking. I would decide which one of those you want to do more of before you buy a car.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

There is a good group that autocrosses right there in Huntsville - http://www.tvrscca.org/ They have fun events at John Hunt Park. I'd get on their forum, introduce yourself, and go to a few events without touching the car. Once you've been doing it a while, you can decide if it's for you, if you want to stick with the car / mods you've got, what class appeals to you, etc.

<--- Been autocrossing for the last dozen or so years. Full on addict.

 

[TGR96]

Fox body + Griggs racing kit and a set of street able tires.

It shouldn't be hard to find "project fox bodies" on Craigslist for relatively low cost. With the Griggs kit it would actually handle very well and with the street able tires you could drive it to and from autocross and track days. I believe they would be C Prepared legal with the Griggs kit and a set of A6 tires in the trunk and back seat area would make it good and quick.

Interesting thought there. I had not really considered a Fox Body. I did a quick craigslist search, and you're right, there are many availble for a reasonble cost. Do you have an idea of what it would cost for the Griggs kit that you mentioned? I had priced a Griggs kit for my 98 Cobra a few years back, and IIRC, the whole enchilada was around $5K. The main thing I am focusing on "fun per dollar"

I would go with your car as is, see how much you like it, and go from there. If you are happy with how your car feels, then stick with it. If you find a good deal on a miata or something like that to gut and turn into an auto-x car, then do that. No reason to run into either decision.

Yeah, I agree. I have attended a couple of autocross events locally just to observe, and I might as well give it a try with what I've got now. I would be willing to do that. I don't think I could get out for a track day without a rollbar, and I don't want to install one in my car unless I decide that's the route I'm going with.

There's a big difference between autocrossing and open tracking. I would decide which one of those you want to do more of before you buy a car.

Understood, but wouldn't a car set up for autocrossing be a good car for track days as well? I could see where an open track car would relay more heavily on horsepower, but I guess that I am thinking more about the handling aspect. What would be the points I need to be considering in thinking about a car for autocrossing vs. open tracking?

Thanks to all three of you guys for you input.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

FWIW, I'm guessing your S197 vert still out handles a fox body. It has some pretty shitty DNA. Yes it can be fixed, but it's turd polishing IMO.

As for autox vs. track day - For a lot of folks, there can be good overlap. As you start to optimize for one, the other suffers, but we're talking high-level stuff here. For a daily, it will be fine for either. Best example I have of a car that was great for one but sucked at the other is my old Civic. Had a fair bit of toe-out in the rear to help it dance. That was awesome at 40. It was terrifying at 120. But like I said - that was a car that was built exclusively for autox. THat's not what you're talking about at this point.

 

[TGR96]

There is a good group that autocrosses right there in Huntsville - http://www.tvrscca.org/ They have fun events at John Hunt Park. I'd get on their forum, introduce yourself, and go to a few events without touching the car. Once you've been doing it a while, you can decide if it's for you, if you want to stick with the car / mods you've got, what class appeals to you, etc.

FWIW, I'm guessing your S197 vert still out handles a fox body. It has some pretty shitty DNA. Yes it can be fixed, but it's turd polishing IMO.

As for autox vs. track day - For a lot of folks, there can be good overlap. As you start to optimize for one, the other suffers, but we're talking high-level stuff here. For a daily, it will be fine for either. Best example I have of a car that was great for one but sucked at the other is my old Civic. Had a fair bit of toe-out in the rear to help it dance. That was awesome at 40. It was terrifying at 120. But like I said - that was a car that was built exclusively for autox. THat's not what you're talking about at this point.

Thanks for the input Dave. I have not made it out to the ones at John Hunt park. The ones I have been to were at the Milton Frank stadium parking lot. I have seen some stuff on huntsvillecarscene.com about that club, but I haven't spent a lot of time on their forums. I will check to see when their next event is and get over there to it.

Sounds like you are pretty familiar with this sort of stuff. Besides the Civic, what sort of vehicle are you using or have used in the past? I consider myself a hard core Mustang guy, but I know there may be some fun options out there that would be better suited for this sort of thing, and probably cost less as well. Like I said ealier, I am wanting to maximize my fun per dollar ratio.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I've been to an event at the stadium as well. I heard they had lost that lot due to complaints from the neighbors. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I started autocrossing while in college back in 1999 with what was at the time my daily driver civic. The mod-bug bit, and I started building. Within a few years, it sucked as a street car, so I dedicated it to autox. Had various motors, the final version for the last few seasons being a 11.7:1 forged and sleeved bottom end running 10 pounds of boost on E85, putting 215 to the ground. Roughly the same power to weight as a Z06, but 1000# lighter. I ran staggered Hoosiers on it (275/35/15 F / 225/45/15 R), with race valved Konis, full spherical front suspension, etc. It was fast. Won my first National Tour event in that car, and trophied a couple of times at the National Championships, getting 2nd place this past year.

But 14 years with the same car got old. There was still opportunity to speed it up a bit, but I was burned out on that car. There were few bolts on it that I had not turned, and at some point it stopped being a learning experience and started getting tedious. So I sold it and decided to do something radically different. Ever since my first event I've loved the C-Prepared cars. Mustangs, Camaros, Cudas, etc. Big, loud, chest thumping cars with huge rubber. So that's the direction I chose. Add in that I've loved the S197's since I saw the concept car, and that made the car selection easy. I also happen to think that the modern car should have a leg up on the 60's iron that currently dominates.

I've driven a LOT of cars. Civics and CRX's are fun, cheap to operate, have a HUGE number of helpful people running them, etc. They are an easy button. Miatas are similar, though they have never really "done it" for me. Great cars, just not my thing. I've autocrossed some of the rally cars (WRX, STi, Evo, etc) and I just find them frustrating. They are fast, but they seem to have most of the disadvantages of FWD, but are heavy to boot. This year I've been in several different muscle cars. A couple of events in Jason Young's 5.0. One in another guy's new edge. In theory my full time ride for this year is a 1981 Camaro that is gutted, 3 linked, SLA front suspension, and a pretty badass small block chevy, but it's having teething pains. So instead, I'm doing a lot of car whoring these days.

Your best bet is to dive right in with your current ride IMO. You will have a blast. You will also be slow. Everyone is when they start. Stick with it, dedicate yourself to improving the driver more than the car, get involved in the social aspects of your local club, etc. It really is a tremendous group of people on the whole, and they will undoubtedly be helpful and welcoming. Like Nike says - Just Do It!

 

[Whiskey11]

FWIW, I'm guessing your S197 vert still out handles a fox body. It has some pretty shitty DNA. Yes it can be fixed, but it's turd polishing IMO.

As for autox vs. track day - For a lot of folks, there can be good overlap. As you start to optimize for one, the other suffers, but we're talking high-level stuff here. For a daily, it will be fine for either. Best example I have of a car that was great for one but sucked at the other is my old Civic. Had a fair bit of toe-out in the rear to help it dance. That was awesome at 40. It was terrifying at 120. But like I said - that was a car that was built exclusively for autox. THat's not what you're talking about at this point.

Yeah I am going to go with "not really" on a vert s197 out doing a fox with the Griggs kit. There is a local CP guy here with a fox with the full Maximum Motorsports catalog (coil overs, torque arm, etc) that is consistently faster than the F stock SGT also piloted by a nationals level driver. Keep in mind that the SGT is bearing the ford racing handling pack, Koni sports, and 295 wide A6s. The split at the last event was 1.5 seconds and that was on a fox still running a MacPhearson strut setup and not on the class legal SLA setup.

Several of the local ESP guys have trouble keeping up with him. The closest at the last event was .75 seconds behind.

The Griggs racing kit will set you back just shy of 8 grand and doesn't have a watts link. At that point the suspension is more expensive than the car but that is a small price to pay considering what all it does.

There are less expensive kits. I picked the one that was under the World Challenge with the SLA front suspension. I'm sure the Maximum Motorsports Suspension will run you less and accomplish the same goals in a strut configuration and it was good enough to get the guy mentioned above to seventh in CP at nationals.

The thing is, when you fix the suspension in a fox and fix the soft and spagetti chassis, you get a light weight car with good HP and torque plus you can make them handle.

The other thing here is foxes are inexpensive to maintain too. Tires are cheaper, motors are plentiful and there is a huge after market for the cars and almost 30+ years of making them turn corners.

True the S197 is a better platform to start with but it is also newer and more expensive. We are also talking about an auto vert which is going to have more chassis flex than coupe.

Like I said, you can have fun in the vert and don't let me or anyone tell you otherwise. If your goal is to build a track car and an autocross car strictly, I think you may be better off with a dedicated track car and keep the vert as a street cruiser.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Agreed - with several thousand dollars of suspension work, the fox will no longer suck. But that's an awfully big bite for someone who is just inquiring about getting started.

BTW - Where do you run?

 

[Whiskey11]

Agreed - with several thousand dollars of suspension work, the fox will no longer suck. But that's an awfully big bite for someone who is just inquiring about getting started.

BTW - Where do you run?

Indeed it is a lot of coin. I guess I assumed he had some experience in car handling which was probably a bit of a large assumption to make out of the blue. If I was going to start fresh and go from there it would be a fox especially compared to any vert if I was going to throw a bunch of suspension on it and go. For higher prep levels where weight matters as much as power it makes sense to go with a fox. For the Street and Stock classes the s197 is a solid platform. I love mine.

I run in the Nebraska Region... more specifically about six events a year at the Nationals Site. I am spoiled wrotten! I'm not a pro at driving though, I just spend a lot of time studying suspension and stuff to keep me entertained. One of these days, next year probably, I would like to hit up Spring Nationals and Nationals with my car and see how I do. Right now I know it would he disappointing!

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Nebraska region. Damn. Mecca.

You have to make it to Nationals. Best.Party.Ever.

 

[Whiskey11]

Nebraska region. Damn. Mecca.

You have to make it to Nationals. Best.Party.Ever.

I am going to try and make there and take photos this year. Hopefully by this time next year I will he a lot closer to class prep to actually attend and not be dead frigging last. I probably will be anyway!

Ultimately everyone's goal should be to have fun. You can do that in a 200k mile Kia Rio if you want. I would rather see a smile on your face then drop $15000 and be unhappy. Lots of good recommendations to just do it with the vert for a while. If you get the bug to be super competitive you may look into a fox or something else to build up on the side to dedicate to racing.

 

[frank s]

Fun per dollar.

Forget the modifications. They are fun in and of themselves, and eventually might increase your scratch fun on the course/track, but it's too easy to get lost in the mod red haze and lose track of your basic premise: Fun per dollar.

Cheapest way to start is put some air in the tires of your GT/CS and run some events. Air is (was?) free, and entry fees, memberships, numbers are reasonable. You might find out that autocrossing makes you nauseated. It could happen. Once you've worn out your tires, you'll have an appreciation of what your car needs in order to be even more fun, if possible, and be able to direct your resources more appropriately.

Did I mention that modifications can be an end in themselves, sort of a Mount Everest thing: "Because I can, that's why I mod." Danger, danger. Run away! First and best mod is to the driver: get some experience, get some skill, get some perspective, put the energy where you can feel it: in the sense of having done the best you can with what you've got. Later on you'll be able to properly assign responsibility for less-than-satisfactory performance to personal or equipment shortcomings.

The first autocross-like event I ever saw was a gymkhana at Hourglass Field in north San Diego. There were a few dozen Brit-cars (MGTDs, Jagyouare XK120s, a Morgan +4, etc.) with flat-hat drivers, tweeds and whatnot, stiff-upper-lipping their way around a course, and quite smug, from the looks of it. Along came a curious fellow in a 1940 Plymouth four-door sedan. He looked the situation up and down, climbed behind the wheel and showed those sophisticated sporty-car guys what it meant to drive with speed, economy, and precision. Lots of dropped jaws other than mine.

Just saying.

 

[Sharad]

I had a similar conversation with my boss at UPR this week. We were discussing a handling project and I told him I wasn't opposed to buying a 2013 Mustang GT or BOSS. Not because I'm a high roller (I'm not) but because this is my job. His response was "why buy a brand new car if you're just going to beat it up on the racetrack?"

He's right.

My point for the OP is this: There is a middle ground between the 2010 Vert and the Fox with eleventy billion dollars in suspension. What about a $10k '05 Mustang GT built exactly to whatever AX class you want to run? The fun-per-dollar ratio on an '05 GT built for F-stock would be pretty good, don't you think?

 

[Sam Strano]

Is a car that can autox well good on a track? Depends who set it up. I've seen some really screwed up "autocross" cars at autocrosses... and screwed up track cars at track days. This isn't one of my former Mustangs, but it is my former Camaro which I won 2 ESP National Championships with, and a ProSolo title too, and it's running the full on autox setup with the only change being 295 Hoosier R6's vs. the 315 A6's (read: More sticky). You judge for yourself.

http://www.stranoparts.com/videos.php?VideoID=2

 

[devildog1679]

I tracked a RX-8 for three years and took my 5.0 to the track two weeks ago. The 8 was easier to drive at the limits but the power of the 5.0 was unbelievable. It takes a better driver to handle the 5.0.

 

[Sleeper_08]

I tracked a RX-8 for three years and took my 5.0 to the track two weeks ago. The 8 was easier to drive at the limits but the power of the 5.0 was unbelievable. It takes a better driver to handle the 5.0.

The instructors that I went to VIR with teach there are 6 ways to steer a car;
1) steering wheel
2) throttle on
3) throttle off
4) brake on
5) brake off
6) choosing the wrong gear

The better the power/torque to weight ratio the more important 2) and 3) become and the more you need to learn that the throttle pedal is a rheostat and not an on/off switch. My car is only an 2008 GT but with the Roush SC still has more power than the 2013 GT's. I'm still learning.

 

[Mike K]

Subd. There is lots of good info in here.