Which car for auto crossing/track days?

[DPE]

Appears the general consensus is to figure out what you like to do first, and this is wise. Having come from a sport bike background though, autocrossing an automatic vert strikes me as something you won't find all that thrilling. However, IF you stick with autox, you could optimize what you have and probably have fun.

To me, the track is just plain different. Autox is very intense and a lot of fun, but after a solid three years of spending long days in parking lots for maybe 5-6 minutes of seat time I simply couldn't justify it. I probably have over 3000 track miles since my autox days, and no longer think much about autox. To clarify, I'm not disrespecting autox here, I'm just providing my opinion.

And IMO, IF you end up tracking your car, you will be far better off getting a second vehicle to do it with. And there aren't many better vehicles in that $10k and under price range than an RX8. Bone stock, the car can go out and run laps with no real vices. Pads and fluid, some basic suspension mods, and some decent tires and it's probably the best handling car in terms of balance and feel short of a Boxster/Cayman. If you want to learn to drive a RWD sports car on track and want to know what a sports car 'should' feel like (and not be going so slow that you have to constantly be checking your mirrors like a Miata), that is your car.

Just my 2 cents. I love my Mustang, and on track with a few tweaks it too does very well, but an automatic would really kinda suck and combine that with a vert and to me it's just too far away from what you'd want out there. Plus, it would just be damned nice to have a cheaper, dedicated track car so you don't have to worry about tearing up a 'nice' car on track or worse. I would have such a second car if I could swing it, and given my comments you can imagine what it would be .

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Appears the general consensus is to figure out what you like to do first, and this is wise. Having come from a sport bike background though, autocrossing an automatic vert strikes me as something you won't find all that thrilling. However, IF you stick with autox, you could optimize what you have and probably have fun.

To me, the track is just plain different. Autox is very intense and a lot of fun, but after a solid three years of spending long days in parking lots for maybe 5-6 minutes of seat time I simply couldn't justify it. I probably have over 3000 track miles since my autox days, and no longer think much about autox. To clarify, I'm not disrespecting autox here, I'm just providing my opinion.

And IMO, IF you end up tracking your car, you will be far better off getting a second vehicle to do it with. And there aren't many better vehicles in that $10k and under price range than an RX8. Bone stock, the car can go out and run laps with no real vices. Pads and fluid, some basic suspension mods, and some decent tires and it's probably the best handling car in terms of balance and feel short of a Boxster/Cayman. If you want to learn to drive a RWD sports car on track and want to know what a sports car 'should' feel like (and not be going so slow that you have to constantly be checking your mirrors like a Miata), that is your car.

Just my 2 cents. I love my Mustang, and on track with a few tweaks it too does very well, but an automatic would really kinda suck and combine that with a vert and to me it's just too far away from what you'd want out there. Plus, it would just be damned nice to have a cheaper, dedicated track car so you don't have to worry about tearing up a 'nice' car on track or worse. I would have such a second car if I could swing it, and given my comments you can imagine what it would be .

Re: Automatic - Yeah, it's not ideal. But driving Jason's car has shown me that it's pretty damn good as far as automatics go. The two biggest sins an automatic can have IMO is lack of engine braking and unexpected shifting (up, but especially down). I don't know if Jason's tune has anything to do with it, or if the auto behaves well stock, but it both engine brakes acceptably and putting it in 2 makes it stay in 2. So while it's not ideal, it's not nearly as much of an issue as I would have expected.

Re: Autox vs. Track - They are very different. Very. While the car control skills translate well, nearly everything else is different. In addition to the autocrossing I've done, I've done a few track days, a Chumpcar road race at Road Atlanta, and just this weekend did my first Time Trial in a retired ASA Stock car at Road Atlanta. This coming weekend I'm doing my second Chumpcar race, this time at Daytona. The biggest difference to me is how fast things happen in autox. It is incredibly intense. Lots of aggression, lots of adrenaline, three shots to get it right, etc. So intense. All of my times on track have been comparitively very relaxed. Not to say it wasn't exciting, but just way more sedate. In autox, something is ALWAYS happening. On track, even though the speeds are higher, everything happens much slower in the car. In autox, I regularly get out of the car out of breath, with my hands shaking from adrenaline. On track, I barely get above a resting heart rate. There are moments that are just as intense (coming into the braking zone into 10A at just shy of 160mph could in NO way be considered boring) but it's brief moments of intense followed by long stints of letting the time pass before the next feature. Then there is also the reality that consequences are just plain higher on track. Screw up in autox, and likely the only consequence is a spin, or a few slaughtered cones. Screw up on track and things can get very expensive and very dangerous. That can't help but make you dial it back a notch - or at least me. Perhaps if I was willing to attack the track with the same 11/10ths approach that I carry into an autox, then my opinion would change. But I'm not. Concrete hurts.

 

[TGR96]

Ultimately everyone's goal should be to have fun. You can do that in a 200k mile Kia Rio if you want. I would rather see a smile on your face then drop $15000 and be unhappy.

Absolutely true! Thanks

Fun per dollar.

Forget the modifications. They are fun in and of themselves, and eventually might increase your scratch fun on the course/track, but it's too easy to get lost in the mod red haze and lose track of your basic premise: Fun per dollar.

Yeah man, that's pretty much my goal. I do enjoy modding my vehicles, as most of us on this forum do, but I have my Mustang pretty much right where I want it as far as a fun, good looking, reliable daily driver. I don't want to push it too far and make it where I don't enjoy driving it anymore. been there done that.

His response was "why buy a brand new car if you're just going to beat it up on the racetrack?"

Very true. Been there and done that too, with the sportbikes.

Is a car that can autox well good on a track? Depends who set it up. I've seen some really screwed up "autocross" cars at autocrosses... and screwed up track cars at track days. This isn't one of my former Mustangs, but it is my former Camaro which I won 2 ESP National Championships with, and a ProSolo title too, and it's running the full on autox setup with the only change being 295 Hoosier R6's vs. the 315 A6's (read: More sticky). You judge for yourself.

http://www.stranoparts.com/videos.php?VideoID=2

Great info Sam. Thanks for sharing the link.

I tracked a RX-8 for three years and took my 5.0 to the track two weeks ago. The 8 was easier to drive at the limits but the power of the 5.0 was unbelievable. It takes a better driver to handle the 5.0.

That makes sense. Thanks for sharing your experience with the RX8.

Appears the general consensus is to figure out what you like to do first, and this is wise. Having come from a sport bike background though, autocrossing an automatic vert strikes me as something you won't find all that thrilling. However, IF you stick with autox, you could optimize what you have and probably have fun.

To me, the track is just plain different. Autox is very intense and a lot of fun, but after a solid three years of spending long days in parking lots for maybe 5-6 minutes of seat time I simply couldn't justify it. I probably have over 3000 track miles since my autox days, and no longer think much about autox. To clarify, I'm not disrespecting autox here, I'm just providing my opinion.

And IMO, IF you end up tracking your car, you will be far better off getting a second vehicle to do it with. And there aren't many better vehicles in that $10k and under price range than an RX8. Bone stock, the car can go out and run laps with no real vices. Pads and fluid, some basic suspension mods, and some decent tires and it's probably the best handling car in terms of balance and feel short of a Boxster/Cayman. If you want to learn to drive a RWD sports car on track and want to know what a sports car 'should' feel like (and not be going so slow that you have to constantly be checking your mirrors like a Miata), that is your car.

Just my 2 cents. I love my Mustang, and on track with a few tweaks it too does very well, but an automatic would really kinda suck and combine that with a vert and to me it's just too far away from what you'd want out there. Plus, it would just be damned nice to have a cheaper, dedicated track car so you don't have to worry about tearing up a 'nice' car on track or worse. I would have such a second car if I could swing it, and given my comments you can imagine what it would be .

DPE, your comments were along the same line of thought that I was initially having, as far as having a dedicated track car to do track days with. I know that when I started doing track days with my bike, it didn't take long for me to realize that the best option for me was to get a dedicated track bike. Thanks for the info on the RX8 vs the Miata. Those two cars would probably be at the top of my list if I chose to go that route. I knew the RX8 was good, but I didn't realize it was THAT good. I just know that I have seen a lot of them at the autocross events that I have attended, and now I know why. Plus, it's great that they are all over craigslist for under 10K.

Re: Autox vs. Track - They are very different. Very. While the car control skills translate well, nearly everything else is different. In addition to the autocrossing I've done, I've done a few track days, a Chumpcar road race at Road Atlanta, and just this weekend did my first Time Trial in a retired ASA Stock car at Road Atlanta. This coming weekend I'm doing my second Chumpcar race, this time at Daytona. The biggest difference to me is how fast things happen in autox. It is incredibly intense. Lots of aggression, lots of adrenaline, three shots to get it right, etc. So intense. All of my times on track have been comparitively very relaxed. Not to say it wasn't exciting, but just way more sedate. In autox, something is ALWAYS happening. On track, even though the speeds are higher, everything happens much slower in the car. In autox, I regularly get out of the car out of breath, with my hands shaking from adrenaline. On track, I barely get above a resting heart rate. There are moments that are just as intense (coming into the braking zone into 10A at just shy of 160mph could in NO way be considered boring) but it's brief moments of intense followed by long stints of letting the time pass before the next feature. Then there is also the reality that consequences are just plain higher on track. Screw up in autox, and likely the only consequence is a spin, or a few slaughtered cones. Screw up on track and things can get very expensive and very dangerous. That can't help but make you dial it back a notch - or at least me. Perhaps if I was willing to attack the track with the same 11/10ths approach that I carry into an autox, then my opinion would change. But I'm not. Concrete hurts.

I have not thought of it that way, but then again, I have never autox'ed. Dave, are you local to the Huntsville area?

BTW, I am totally jealous that you got to drive the ASA car at RA. Been there many times on the bike, but never in a car. And you are correct...entering 10A from the high speed back stretch is definitely thrilling to say the least!

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I'm in Atlanta. I don't make it to Huntsville that often, but occasionally.

 

[frank s]

Couple more points bumped by the multiple good advices you've received:

My first Mustang was a V6 convertible automatic. It took a good deal of money and expensive experience to turn it into an autocross monster. It was always fun, regardless of the fact that it would always be too heavy and ponderous to be among the faster cars in its class.

If, after you've tasted autocross enough to know if it will be worthwhile to you, look for an already-built racer. While it is always fun to do your own modifications and development, you might find the process less than joyful. Let someone else do the drudgery, you reap the rewards of their investment. Most of the initial effect of the financial crisis has faded, but there are still a few decent cars-with-histories showing up.

The same might apply in looking for a second track-only car. It'll be a much better experience overall if you get to skip the swamps and deserts on the way to the high road.

 

[TGR96]

Couple more points bumped by the multiple good advices you've received:


If, after you've tasted autocross enough to know if it will be worthwhile to you, look for an already-built racer. While it is always fun to do your own modifications and development, you might find the process less than joyful. Let someone else do the drudgery, you reap the rewards of their investment. Most of the initial effect of the financial crisis has faded, but there are still a few decent cars-with-histories showing up.

The same might apply in looking for a second track-only car. It'll be a much better experience overall if you get to skip the swamps and deserts on the way to the high road.

Thanks Frank! I know what you mean. I do enjoy working on the various vehicles I have owned over the years, and as much as I enjoy turning wrenches, a lot can be said about buying something that is already built, a car that someone else has already poured a ton of money into. That's what I did with a Jeep that I currently own, bought one that was already pretty well built. But somehow, I have still managed to find a way to sink even more disposable income into it! LOL

Here's another random thought that I just had...I am running Eibach 1" bolt on style wheel spacers on my front wheels only. Would this pose a problem in autocrossing (i.e. will they break or cause my wheels to break?) I assume that there are a lot of forces at play on the wheels while autocrossing.

 

[Mike K]

Don't know how much you are willing to spend but C5 vettes can be had for not to much then you have a great starting point. Just a thought.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Don't know how much you are willing to spend but C5 vettes can be had for not to much then you have a great starting point. Just a thought.

They are truly a spectacular performance bargin right now.

 

[TGR96]

Don't know how much you are willing to spend but C5 vettes can be had for not to much then you have a great starting point. Just a thought.

They are truly a spectacular performance bargin right now.

Well, based on feedback that I have received, I think that I will hold of on buying a separate track/autocross car, and just try my Mustang first, to see how it goes. I actually have not thought about a Vette at all. I just have never been a Chevy fan. I come from a long line of Ford owners in my family. My dad and uncle worked for Ford for a long time, and my uncle even owned a Ford store for several years. I guess it's in my blood. But I am not oppesed to a Vette at all, especially if it doesn't have to be a DD. Will have to check into them. Oh yeah, and insurance on one, too. $$$ LOL I know they are great performance cars...

If I do go that route, I was looking at staying (well) under $10, and I have found several RX8's, second generation Miatas, and even some S2000s that fit my budget. I had also planned on throwing in a set of track tires and wheels in those constraints.

The main reason I was even thinking about getting another "toy" car is from my experience with doing track days with the sport bikes. Before I bought a "track bike," I put down two perfectly good street bikes on the track, totalled one of them, and my two buddies who did track days with me eventually put theirs down as well. Like they say with bikes, it's not "if you put it down," but rather "when you put it down." I love my Mustang, plan on keeping it for a while, and don't want to do a thing to harm it, mechanically or cosmetically, while playing around at an autocross or track day. Hence, I was considering an alternative car.

 

[JesseW.]

i love my mustang for autocross, and imagine it would be a lot of fun on a roadcourse, but i find myself wishing i had an S2000 after riding in and driving my friends. the relatively stock s2000 (anti-sway bars, STR tire set up, stock suspension) is almost as fast as my mustang when i'm on A6's and faster when on equal tires (hankook R-S3's). I have koni sports, gc coilover kit, strano bars, good alignment and am supercharged (DAMN SM CLASS!!!!). another plus for the S2000 is the tire prices are a lot cheaper in the 255-17 range than the 285(or 295)-18 range. a c5 vette is also a great choice, without the tire price advantage.

If you want to be competitive you need to pull out the rulebook and set the car up for the class. FS, ESP and CP are great autox classes and highly competitive for mustangs, but SM with a supercharged mustang is not. its simply outclassed by cars that can make the minimum weight/have awd/can make 500hp on 4 cylinders and boost.

On the other hand, i've seen S2000's be highly competive in every class they are allowed in SOLO. (these comments may not apply to road courses)


That said, i'd much rather have the mustang as a street car, much faster in a straight line and you can't really throw anything in a corner on the streets, laws and all. the back seat is handy and an S2000 is really cramped if you are north of 200 lbs.

 

[jmauld]

They are truly a spectacular performance bargin right now.

There is a guy locally selling a c5 z06 for under $20k. There's not much in that price range that will come any where close to that car.

 

[jmauld]

i love my mustang for autocross, and imagine it would be a lot of fun on a roadcourse, but i find myself wishing i had an S2000 after riding in and driving my friends. the relatively stock s2000 (anti-sway bars, STR tire set up, stock suspension) is almost as fast as my mustang when i'm on A6's and faster when on equal tires (hankook R-S3's). I have koni sports, gc coilover kit, strano bars, good alignment and am supercharged (DAMN SM CLASS!!!!). another plus for the S2000 is the tire prices are a lot cheaper in the 255-17 range than the 285(or 295)-18 range. a c5 vette is also a great choice, without the tire price advantage.

.

The s2000 is no doubt a better autocross car then the mustang, but the mustang does everything else better.

 

[argonaut]

I have a 2007 GT that I use to track and a 99 C5 FRC that is now my track toy. I really don't think there is a better bang for the buck performance wise than a C5, however there are some things to know. At a nooby or intermediate level a stock C5 is killer, slap in some track pads and go have fun. But by the time you get to an advanced level and start using R-comps they can be quite expensive to setup and maintain. Cooling is an issue for all fluids - I have an upgraded radiator, EOC, Tranny cooler and differential cooler (burned up one diff and ruined a tranny before I got the coolers). Brakes are another weak point, not stopping power, longevity - they go thru pads and crack rotors like nobody's business. Tires of course are big and thus expensive (unless you use scrubs). But overall they are an awesome car. Forget about the push so prevelant in the Mustang...the Vette front end sticks like glue.

 

[Mike K]

Thinking out loud again but how about a 944? They can be had for cheap also.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

The main reason I was even thinking about getting another "toy" car is from my experience with doing track days with the sport bikes. Before I bought a "track bike," I put down two perfectly good street bikes on the track, totalled one of them, and my two buddies who did track days with me eventually put theirs down as well. Like they say with bikes, it's not "if you put it down," but rather "when you put it down." I love my Mustang, plan on keeping it for a while, and don't want to do a thing to harm it, mechanically or cosmetically, while playing around at an autocross or track day. Hence, I was considering an alternative car.

I'm with you. Though incidents can happen at autocrosses, they are extremely rare. I have no problem taking a car I care about / value / want to keep to an autox. Tracks are a different story. While there are plenty of people who track their car and drive it away at the end of the day, I tend to go by the "Don't put anything on a racetrack that you aren't willing to wad up and throw away" theory.

 

[TGR96]

Thanks again to all who have chimed in the past few days. I am still in the investigative stage of this deal, and am keeping an eye out for a good car at a good price. I know from experience that motorsports of any sort can get expensive pretty quick, and like most of us here, I have mortgage, grocery, gas, utility, and other not-so-fun bills that I have to put first, so cost is a concern for me.

Sounds like the C5 would be a great car, but the more I hear, the more I am thinking that maintenace costs would be a lot greater than those of a smaller car, like the RX8 or S2000. I haven't seen too many 944 for sale in my area. I don't really know much about them. Any idea about how maintenace costs would be?

No one has really chimed in much about the Miata, and that surprises me a little bit. Any thoughts on those? I see some nice, under 100K, second gen Miatas around here in the $5K-$7 range, and even lower if I am willing to compromise on condition or mileage. I hear those are bulletproof, and I would think that the parts would be fairly inexpensive.

Thanks again for any input.

 

[Whiskey11]

Head over to Corner-Carvers.net and in the suspension and chassis section there is a thread entitled "If you were to do your miata over..." one of the first responses is "I wouldn't build a miata again." The other sign is that my phones auto correct keeps correcting miata to mistake... interesting twist...

I'm of course just messing around although both of what I said above are true. They are an absolute monster in autocross and aside from a lack of power they do well on a road course too. I just don't think about them because there is no way I could fit myself in one. Same for the s2000.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Miatas are great. If you like them. I like them a lot for other people, and appreciate a well built / well driven one. I just can't see one in my own driveway.

I'd avoid the 944. All of the expense, none of the speed.

I still think you'll have a blast hitting up a season worth of local events in the car you have, and then deciding what next.

 

[TGR96]

Head over to Corner-Carvers.net and in the suspension and chassis section there is a thread entitled "If you were to do your miata over..." one of the first responses is "I wouldn't build a miata again." The other sign is that my phones auto correct keeps correcting miata to mistake... interesting twist...

I'm of course just messing around although both of what I said above are true. They are an absolute monster in autocross and aside from a lack of power they do well on a road course too. I just don't think about them because there is no way I could fit myself in one. Same for the s2000.

Bahaha! that's interesting! BTW, my phone does that too, with the "Miata" thing...

As far as size goes, I may be pushing the size limits of a Miata or S2000 myself. I am a shade under 6' tall, 200 lbs, 34" waist, 44" chest, and 32" inseam. My wife used to have a Solstice, and I was definitely cramped in that thing. But man, was it fun to drive. Just no power, I assume much like the Miata. I have just always wondered about those cars. They have such a cult following, and in a recent Car And Driver article, almost all of the writers chose it as one of their favorite cars of all time. I guess that I would just need to drive one.

Miatas are great. If you like them. I like them a lot for other people, and appreciate a well built / well driven one. I just can't see one in my own driveway.

I'd avoid the 944. All of the expense, none of the speed.

I still think you'll have a blast hitting up a season worth of local events in the car you have, and then deciding what next.

Thanks for the input once again Dave. I am going to follow your advice as well as that of others and try some autocrossing in my Mustang BEFORE going out and buying another vehicle. I may do some test driving in the meantime. I just don't think that my current Mustang will ever see the track, though.

 

[jmauld]

What about a Solstice GXP?