Whiteline Sway Settings?

BMR Tech

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He is talking about mounting either to the rear portion of the LCA mount, or the inside of it.

That is something we have considered too, but this damn car and it's wide stock link locations make it tough to make a "great" bar for a "great" price, honestly.
 

Sky Render

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He is talking about mounting either to the rear portion of the LCA mount, or the inside of it.

That is something we have considered too, but this damn car and it's wide stock link locations make it tough to make a "great" bar for a "great" price, honestly.

I got you. Let's look at some pics of the stock suspension.

Now I'm really bad at eyeballing things, but, to me, that looks like the stock drop link locations would be too far outboard to allow mounting there, unless you had some links that angled inwards or were curved:

15727792_large.jpg


Furthermore, how could we mount it and still allow the use of the stock (or lower) control arm mounting points? Would the sway bar basically bolt to a set of lower control arm relocation brackets? And would that bracket be stout enough to hold up to the additional forces?

23%20Complete%20Suspension-L.jpg
 

NEMustang

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He is talking about mounting either to the rear portion of the LCA mount, or the inside of it.
Exactly

I got you. Let's look at some pics of the stock suspension.

Now I'm really bad at eyeballing things, but, to me, that looks like the stock drop link locations would be too far outboard to allow mounting there, unless you had some links that angled inwards or were curved
Same thought...the stock drop links are as wide or wider than the inboard side of the LCA mount. Either the bar would have additional bending to accommodate or maybe mount to the outboard side of the LCA mount.

My BMR LCA Relos are pretty damn sturdy. The stock LCA mounting bracket is pretty good, even without a relo bracket. The stock ARB mount is flimsier than the LCA mount. Obviously, some engineering is in order and this is not my area of expertise...I'm just an idea man!
 

cp85gt

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What I was talking about a few weeks ago would be to use a spline hollow rear bar with offset bent aluminum arms that would mount using the existing links and axle attachment point. This would be lightweight and give you about 2" clearance per side.
ctrp_0408_05_zbig_sway_bar_and_soft_spring_setuptypes_of_sway_bar_arms_zpsdcd6b74c.jpg
 

BMR Tech

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What I was talking about a few weeks ago would be to use a spline hollow rear bar with offset bent aluminum arms that would mount using the existing links and axle attachment point. This would be lightweight and give you about 2" clearance per side.
ctrp_0408_05_zbig_sway_bar_and_soft_spring_setuptypes_of_sway_bar_arms_zpsdcd6b74c.jpg

This is a design principle that we have used on various platforms, including our old HD Rear Sway-Bar (XARB) for this chassis.

The issue is, you have to have a solid way to mount the main bar....you cannot run this design mounted to the stock end-link position, with end-links attached to the axle as well. 1 point has to be a solid mount (torsion-pivot point)

I am a fan of offering this, and I already have a design for a bar like this on this car...

Please provide your input similar to what you have done in our thread:

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99782

Thanks!
 

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Wow- didn't realize my dumb question would result in a new product launch, haha.

If anyone remembers me, the OP- had set the front sway bar to 2nd hole and left rear on 1st hole. This made my oversteer during evening commute off ramps go away and made me a more confident that I wouldn't go off course bass ackward at VIR.

Well- finally got to VIR this weekend. The handling felt neutral on track, but I'm a rookie...

I'm looking at pics from the event today, and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on whether I should tighten up further. The lean looks bad to me, but didn't feel that bad from the driver's seat.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6kyx0lv8igy8nhn/thscc%20april%206%202013%20turn%205.jpg

Thanks
Apex50
 

Norm Peterson

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What are the rates for the WL rear bar?

Anyone know?
Never seen any numbers for the Whiteline rear bar, and even if I did they would probably not be directly comparable to the numbers for most other rear bars.

But if anybody was to send me a complete set of dimensions including bend radii at all bends I might give it a shot once I get past a whole bunch of other stuff.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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I'm looking at pics from the event today, and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on whether I should tighten up further. The lean looks bad to me, but didn't feel that bad from the driver's seat.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6kyx0lv8igy8nhn/thscc april 6 2013 turn 5.jpg

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Apex50
Doesn't look bad for a dual-purpose car.

Static camber setting needs to be more negative. Try that first.

If that's not enough, go up one more hole on each bar, and maybe add just a little more shock/strut damping.


Norm
 

Whiskey11

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Doesn't look bad for a dual-purpose car.

Static camber setting needs to be more negative. Try that first.

If that's not enough, go up one more hole on each bar, and maybe add just a little more shock/strut damping.


Norm

I agree with Norm. The one thing that sticks out to me is the static negative camber.

What are your alignment specs?

If you aren't comfortable with huge amounts of negative camber and don't have a set of camber plates where you can go from "extreme to extreme" with comfortable camber settings, I would run about -1.5º which is the upper end of Ford's camber specs which combined with zero toe and some slightly enthusiastic cornering (nothing dangerous, just harder than your grandma would go) shouldn't cause any increased tire wear.

FWIW, if you do have real camber plates, the toe change from -1.5º to about -3.0º at about 1.5" lower than stock is a tenth of a degree of toe out.

If you aren't comfortable with that amount of body roll, step the bars up a notch and check again. I don't think it looks like that much.
 

Apex50

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My camber is -1.7/-1.8 (Left/right), caster is 7/6.9 and toe is .11/.11. I'm using Max Motorsports plates and lowered on Steeda Sport springs. Are you saying I should go down to -3 for camber? Sorry, but you lost me on the relationship between camber and toe...

I didn't feel like body roll was that bad from inside the car, just expected to see a flatter car when I was seeing pictures from mid corners.
 

sholzer

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He's saying if you're lowered about 1.5" from stock, going from -1.5 degrees of camber to -3 degress of camber will increase toe out by about .1 of a degree
 

Norm Peterson

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My camber is -1.7/-1.8 (Left/right), caster is 7/6.9 and toe is .11/.11.
I think we just had an object lesson in the camber gain curve fall into our laps. These two cars are set with virtually identical static camber, but the car in the top picture is lowered while the one in the lower picture is not. When you're lowered, you're operating in a region of the curve that doesn't give back negative camber quite as fast when the suspension is moved still further into 'bump' - as happens to the outer front during roll. So when you don't have as much camber gain working for you, you need to set more static in order to end up at the same place when you're driving it.


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I'm using Max Motorsports plates and lowered on Steeda Sport springs. Are you saying I should go down to -3 for camber?
Once you work out a method for swapping between street camber and track/autocross camber without having to keep measuring, you'll definitely want to set more negative than -1.8° for the track. How much further probably depends on how grippy your tires are, as that affects how much roll you have to work with/compensate for. But I'd say at least -2.5°, and set your toe at that camber setting to ~zero for the big track (more than a tiny bit of toe-out might be a little too twitchy). As long as there isn't a huge difference between your street and track camber settings, you can probably just let the toe for your street driving specs fall wherever it lands.

Significant toe out is more appropriate to lower speed/tighter turn autocrossing where a little twitchiness is easier to deal with (and may even be preferable).

With a little practice, swapping between camber settings should take only a couple of minutes per side, including jack time to unload the suspension to make actually moving the C-C plate adjustment easier (why I said that you don't want to have to measure anything gets a lot clearer here). Since the rate of toe change per degree of camber change is pretty slow, not having to touch it avoids setting up for and measuring at least something.

Depending on what your street driving is like, dropping back to -1.5°-ish may or may not make much difference. If you're currently getting pretty even wear at about -1.75° without counting on track time to beat up the outer shoulders to even it out, it's probably close enough to what's best for your daily driving.


I didn't feel like body roll was that bad from inside the car, just expected to see a flatter car when I was seeing pictures from mid corners.
I think when your attention is on staying on line and hitting your marks and when you've got enough shock/strut damping, the amount of roll you sense from the driver seat will always feel less than what you'd observe from the outside. Even in cars that roll a lot more than either of the cars in the above pics do (see
thumbnail pic ↓↓↓) , it still doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as it looks.


Norm
 

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Apex50

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Ok- did some research on the relationship between camber and toe; so going up to -3 in camber should put toe out to around .2, which is at the upper limit for oem alignment specs. So that'll help me catch those dang M3's?
 

Norm Peterson

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I don't see toe ever quite going "out" if you start from the numbers you posted above and adjust only the cambers.

If Whiskey's numbers are in reference to individual toe, changing camber from -1.7° to -3.0° would shift the right and left toes from +0.11° to about +0.02°. Around 0.04° total toe if this is the case.

If his numbers are in terms of total toe, think in terms of your total toe going from +0.22° to +0.13°.

Hopefully we'll hear which way it is.


Norm
 

Whiskey11

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Ok- did some research on the relationship between camber and toe; so going up to -3 in camber should put toe out to around .2, which is at the upper limit for oem alignment specs. So that'll help me catch those dang M3's?

That value may be accurate at your ride height, for me it was only a tenth of a degree out but I'm a half inch lower than you are so that could be contributing to that.

Ford specs -0.10º toe OUT to +0.30º toe IN (their wording is +0.10º +/-0.20º). If your suspension moves -0.20º of toe out from -1.5º of camber to -3.0º camber then you'd be looking at +0.20 of toe in at the "street" setting to achieve 0 total toe for the road course settings.

To also add more to the camber curve discussion:
7545140430_2edd2bcd1e_c.jpg


This picture taken last year was with Steeda Sport Springs and Sam's 35mm front bar set at full stiff. The line drawn through the contact patches and then the wheel angle is pretty straight up and down (although it looks like the wheel is going positive). That was at -1.7º of camber and the picture was taken while accelerating out of the corner. Definitely not enough to save the tires since the outer shoulders got beat up pretty badly.

In your case, stiffening the front bar may, and I'll emphasize may, help keep the car in a happier part of the camber curve. It's "free" to try so it's worth testing that setting. More negative camber for track outings will definitely help keep tire wear more even.

Sholzer, thanks for clarifying what I wrote. I realize that it wasn't written very well (I was really tired when I wrote that).
 
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