Why My Engine Blew....

[Greg Hazlett]

So....what now?

 

[ROUSH1711]

Damn that really sucks,over a harness

 

[ondabumper]

You cant force the new cars (2011) in Open Loop. Actually the car never goes to open loop EVEN at Wid Open Throttle. The car will go into Power enrichment you can extend the amout of time it will be in, but the O2 sensors are all the feedback still, even at WOT. In the earlier years the O2 sensors are shut down at WOT when in Open Loop. Now since they are defaulted to 14.65 to 1 when the sensor is not communicating you will most likely see detonation which will have a engine blow very quickly.

Another thing you want to take into consideration is running race fuel. Well race fuel with lead in it. 110, C12, C16, Q16, ect... Now these new sensors are very sensitive to leaded fuel and will react badly to them and can cause a motor to blow. Since the PCM relies on feedback from the sensors, if it sees no data cause the sensor is fouled it will default to 14.65 and only a matter of time before it detonates and then you know the rest. Best thing for these cars is a return style fuel system now, especially since you cant adjust the base pressure in the tune.

I will say that these cars are very easy to tune now, 2 pulls and it is dead on. Just the driveability is not fun to tune. Datalog the A/F with factory wideband is great also, so that is something new to everyone. These wideband companys are going to love this!!!!

 

[beefcake]

You cant force the new cars (2011) in Open Loop. Actually the car never goes to open loop EVEN at Wid Open Throttle. The car will go into Power enrichment you can extend the amout of time it will be in, but the O2 sensors are all the feedback still, even at WOT. In the earlier years the O2 sensors are shut down at WOT when in Open Loop. Now since they are defaulted to 14.65 to 1 when the sensor is not communicating you will most likely see detonation which will have a engine blow very quickly.

Another thing you want to take into consideration is running race fuel. Well race fuel with lead in it. 110, C12, C16, Q16, ect... Now these new sensors are very sensitive to leaded fuel and will react badly to them and can cause a motor to blow. Since the PCM relies on feedback from the sensors, if it sees no data cause the sensor is fouled it will default to 14.65 and only a matter of time before it detonates and then you know the rest. Best thing for these cars is a return style fuel system now, especially since you cant adjust the base pressure in the tune.

I will say that these cars are very easy to tune now, 2 pulls and it is dead on. Just the driveability is not fun to tune. Datalog the A/F with factory wideband is great also, so that is something new to everyone. These wideband companys are going to love this!!!!

Right on. I am currently running MS109 at the track. Ran into another guy thats been running c16, and now he's starting to have issues, more than likely due to the lead.

Just use a good unleaded

 

[rsb5772]

Thanks for posting this!!! The clip on mine broke when installing the extension, and we wrapped it with electrical tape. I'll be pulling it out tomorrow! Thanks again!

 

[Trav4011]

You cant force the new cars (2011) in Open Loop. Actually the car never goes to open loop EVEN at Wid Open Throttle. The car will go into Power enrichment you can extend the amout of time it will be in, but the O2 sensors are all the feedback still, even at WOT. In the earlier years the O2 sensors are shut down at WOT when in Open Loop. Now since they are defaulted to 14.65 to 1 when the sensor is not communicating you will most likely see detonation which will have a engine blow very quickly.

Another thing you want to take into consideration is running race fuel. Well race fuel with lead in it. 110, C12, C16, Q16, ect... Now these new sensors are very sensitive to leaded fuel and will react badly to them and can cause a motor to blow. Since the PCM relies on feedback from the sensors, if it sees no data cause the sensor is fouled it will default to 14.65 and only a matter of time before it detonates and then you know the rest. Best thing for these cars is a return style fuel system now, especially since you cant adjust the base pressure in the tune.

I will say that these cars are very easy to tune now, 2 pulls and it is dead on. Just the driveability is not fun to tune. Datalog the A/F with factory wideband is great also, so that is something new to everyone. These wideband companys are going to love this!!!!

That's what I was fixing to ask.. I was wondering if these cars went into open loop after a certain throttle percentage, or engine RPM. If so, it wouldn't read off of the o2's, and would just read off of MAF vs RPM, with the only input variables allowing change being the knock sensor.

So, these things run closed loop all the time, and rely on feedback from the wideband o2's to determine injector pulse? Scary.. What happens as the sensor(s) slowly degrade, as they all do? You would have to replace sensors every few years to keep the A/F correct.

Travis

 

[wbt]

I'm confused....how could the motor still be running when you took it out if 4 of 8 pistons were toast along with bent rods?

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37131&page=10

 

[KJGT]

That's what I was fixing to ask.. I was wondering if these cars went into open loop after a certain throttle percentage, or engine RPM. If so, it wouldn't read off of the o2's, and would just read off of MAF vs RPM, with the only input variables allowing change being the knock sensor.

So, these things run closed loop all the time, and rely on feedback from the wideband o2's to determine injector pulse? Scary.. What happens as the sensor(s) slowly degrade, as they all do? You would have to replace sensors every few years to keep the A/F correct.

Travis

I know the ECU compares the O2 readings and if one is off it sets a code. If one completely fails I have no idea what it does, but the way I understood it is the ECU will use the stored differental to fuel the dead O2 bank. If both O2s quit it doesnt know what the AF is so it has to go to some kind of VE based table which I assume would be load based off the MAF. Of course if its calibrated for a stock engine the fueling is going to be off with a blower.

I would assume these use a regular LSU bosch sensor, and they do fail occasionally on their own and degrade, especially if you run the car rich.

I wouldnt want to unplug an O2 sensor making a pass though to test it out, only takes about 1/2 a second to melt a cast piston so who knows. Sucks about the cable, its very possible that was the cause and thats a crappy way to lose an engine.

 

[Digital_Synapse]

My car is stock, but when we threw my car on the dyno, the a/f was at 14, and my tuner said "whoa!" and backed it down...she gave it a little time and it dropped back down to 12. I actually have the dyno sheet. Could this be a problem with our cars?

Running lean and correcting on their own...being exacerbated by a blower?

My car is stock except for the Corsa's.

 

[05yellowgt]

Right on. I am currently running MS109 at the track. Ran into another guy thats been running c16, and now he's starting to have issues, more than likely due to the lead.

Just use a good unleaded

We need to have a little chat about E85 Beefy. Save you a ton of money over the course of a season vs MS109 and you can make more power, even every day if you felt like it!!

 

[beefcake]

We need to have a little chat about E85 Beefy. Save you a ton of money over the course of a season vs MS109 and you can make more power, even every day if you felt like it!!

I'm thinking about it, but i don't think I have any stations around. Not that i've seen anyway. I'd probably want to add a 3rd pump and some bigger injectors.

i'm going to check with fore and see if the hat is anodized.

 

[beefcake]

I'm confused....how could the motor still be running when you took it out if 4 of 8 pistons were toast along with bent rods?

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37131&page=10

This

 

[STEVE_POE]

I'm thinking about it, but i don't think I have any stations around. Not that i've seen anyway. I'd probably want to add a 3rd pump and some bigger injectors.

i'm going to check with fore and see if the hat is anodized.

Terry The kroger on branch hill sells e85 did you blow up another motor ?

 

[WILLY MAK]

Hey beefcake, Its Willy From Mak Performance. I was the other car in NMRA that was having the issue with the A/F. We had all type of issues with those harness. If you guys have extenders on them this is what we did to resolve the problem until they correct the issue. We had multiple issues with the hareness; the retaining clips snaped of the connectors, the terminals would not stay in the connectors and they would push out and not make contact, and one ot the terminals was not crimped properly, hence causing a bad connection. What we did was remove the extension harness from the car and inpect and terminlas and wires and recrimped the ones in doubt. Then we put them back in the connector and discovered that the retaining clips inside the connectors were broken also and thats why the terminal would be pushed out when you connected them. So what we did was push all the wires into the connectors firmly and used a small tie rap around all the wires going into the connector so that they would help retaing the termnial in the connector in the correct location. That solved the terminals in the connectors from being pushed out when you reconnect them again. The next thing we did is once we connected the harness back in, we ran a tie rap through the top of the connector, in the middle of the wires; where the terminal wires go into the connector. And looped it around to the other side of the connetor and did the same thing and tightened the tie rap. Like that it is impossible for the connector to come loose. I hope this helps you guys, Good Luck !

 

[TurboX]

Does this car have a A/F or EGT ?

That and oil pressure are something you should always be glancing over at.

 

[beefcake]

Terry The kroger on branch hill sells e85 did you blow up another motor ?

GOD no, lol.

 

[Mike@PowerHouse]

Im gonna have to jump in on this, as I myself had an issue thursday at Bradenton.

First of all these cars DO NOT run closed loop all the time.
Second, It is possible to run them OPEN LOOP all the time.

Now, I roached a piston, maybe two on the dyno before we left for FL.... and here is the story.
As i was tuning our car in 2# increments up to @12 # EVERYTHING was spot on. Developed a bunch of tune files in the process both race gas and pump gas @ lower power levels.
Once I was happy with the 12# race gas file, I started to bump up the boost, Starting with 14#. Because I was completely comfortable with my a/f on the 20 or so pulls i was a little laxxed on watching the a/f monitor, no longer "hawkeyed" on the a/f gauge, but a bit more focused on the boost level.
Let me just say, Shame on me! COMMANDED A/F shifted to 1.0 lambda (14.6:1) at 4400 rpm, which happens to be at peak torque (660lbft), I missed the shift in a/f for nearly 1 second, at which time the damage was done.

So why did commanded lambda shift to 1.0? Well it seems that the ecm will do whatever it takes to control torque. The added 2 psi and ignition timing caused the engine to exceed a few of the torque values in the tune. Appearantly Ford thought it was a great idea to cut fuel as well as a few other things to limit the engines torque. Needless to say, not a good thing for a turbocharged/supercharged 5.0........

After a breif discussion with a few other folks this is a relatively common issue, and has been realized before, but not mentioned.....

So if youre a tuner and were unaware, or a customer that thinks he is going to just bump up the boost by a pulley change or a turn on the boost controller TAKE NOTE!

Sorry about the 02 harness, that sucks. Sounds as though Bradenton was hard on a few 5.0 cars!

 

[beefcake]

Im gonna have to jump in on this, as I myself had an issue thursday at Bradenton.

First of all these cars DO NOT run closed loop all the time.
Second, It is possible to run them OPEN LOOP all the time.

Now, I roached a piston, maybe two on the dyno before we left for FL.... and here is the story.
As i was tuning our car in 2# increments up to @12 # EVERYTHING was spot on. Developed a bunch of tune files in the process both race gas and pump gas @ lower power levels.
Once I was happy with the 12# race gas file, I started to bump up the boost, Starting with 14#. Because I was completely comfortable with my a/f on the 20 or so pulls i was a little laxxed on watching the a/f monitor, no longer "hawkeyed" on the a/f gauge, but a bit more focused on the boost level.
Let me just say, Shame on me! COMMANDED A/F shifted to 1.0 lambda (14.6:1) at 4400 rpm, which happens to be at peak torque (660lbft), I missed the shift in a/f for nearly 1 second, at which time the damage was done.

So why did commanded lambda shift to 1.0? Well it seems that the ecm will do whatever it takes to control torque. The added 2 psi and ignition timing caused the engine to exceed a few of the torque values in the tune. Appearantly Ford thought it was a great idea to cut fuel as well as a few other things to limit the engines torque. Needless to say, not a good thing for a turbocharged/supercharged 5.0........

After a breif discussion with a few other folks this is a relatively common issue, and has been realized before, but not mentioned.....

So if youre a tuner and were unaware, or a customer that thinks he is going to just bump up the boost by a pulley change or a turn on the boost controller TAKE NOTE!

Sorry about the 02 harness, that sucks. Sounds as though Bradenton was hard on a few 5.0 cars!

Jon told me about the car, sorry to hear about it.

Just so everyone is clear. The 4 blown pistons were my stock motor. Not the built shortblock that is in the car now.

Edit: Mike, is it possible to turn off the torque limiters? I know my c6 had a bunch of them, but they could be turned off through programming.

 

[KungFuHamster]

Great thread...lots of good information.

Looks like there is quite a learning curve on these new motors/cpu's and you guys are taking the heat to pass the knowledge on down. i salute you Beefcake and Mike.

 

[Mike@PowerHouse]

Edit: Mike, is it possible to turn off the torque limiters? I know my c6 had a bunch of them, but they could be turned off through programming.

There is currently not a way to switch these limiters "off", but there are work arounds to put them "out of reach".