From Koni to bilstein. I've seen the light. Thanks vorshlag!

csamsh

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Hey don't feel too bad. Paul has been racing longer than we've been alive
 

barbaro

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Well, with something like a koni yellow, to get the spring rate high enough to not bottom out, you get too much spring for the damper. in a motorsports setting with no regard paid to suspension or damping calculators

Wrong. Koni Yellows are perfectly fine as a dual purpose sreet/track damper provided you run them with springs that are stiff enough and don't lower too much (more than an inch). I run them with Steeda Boss Competition Springs 225/195 lb spring rate. Rare bumpstop contact. The ride is plush. Perfect fo street. I have gone through a set and bent the rods running them too low. Especially the rear shocks. I know people running them with H&R springs which are lower and stiffer without problems. Ground control will sell you shortened adjustable rear koni's valved to your liking. Problem solved.
 

csamsh

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white86hatch

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Wrong. Koni Yellows are perfectly fine as a dual purpose sreet/track damper provided you run them with springs that are stiff enough and don't lower too much (more than an inch). I run them with Steeda Boss Competition Springs 225/195 lb spring rate. Rare bumpstop contact. The ride is plush. Perfect fo street. I have gone through a set and bent the rods running them too low. Especially the rear shocks. I know people running them with H&R springs which are lower and stiffer without problems. Ground control will sell you shortened adjustable rear koni's valved to your liking. Problem solved.

Glad it worked for you. Guess I'm just not as lucky.
 

jmauld

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I know people running them with H&R springs which are lower and stiffer without problems. Ground control will sell you shortened adjustable rear koni's valved to your liking. Problem solved.
I know people that have blown them on stock springs. Problem not solved.
 

kcbrown

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I know people that have blown them on stock springs. Problem not solved.

I'm running them on stock springs, so I guess I can (eventually) be considered a data point for this. I got mine about 4 months ago. For those who have blown them on stock springs, how long did they last before they went?

I have to wonder if these things have an "infant mortality" phase like a lot of other things, where the probability of a failure is much higher, and after which the probability of failure is quite a bit lower.


If this were a problem with the design, then everyone who had these would be driving around on blown dampers. I'm deeply skeptical that such is the case, and the people who have these and haven't blown then (e.g., Norm Peterson) can be considered existence proofs that the problem isn't with the design provided one stays within their design parameters. I have little doubt that once you lower the car by more than some amount, the Konis (or any design with stock dimensions and mounting points) just won't suffice.

The amount of lowering and the requisite spring rate are tied together. Not only does the reduced travel demand a higher spring rate, the increase in roll moment arm (thanks to the roll center dropping 3x faster than the amount lowered) also does. Between those two, csamsh's claim that sufficient lowering spring rates to keep the car off the bump stops are beyond the Konis' ability to control may actually be correct. It will of course depend on the amount the car is lowered. Lower by an inch or less and my suspicion is that the critical damping rate of the resulting spring rates will still fall within the Konis' damping region, though perhaps barely so. And it might easily be that the Konis just won't last when cranked up that high.


And then there's the question of the tires. Run stickier tires, and the forces on the suspension will be greater. It's one of the reasons I've decided to stick with the Bridgestone S-04 Pole Position tires -- they're cheap, they last reasonably well, and they don't take the stock suspension beyond its design parameters. I won't be surprised at all if that's one of the reasons I haven't seen the kind of bad behavior from the suspension that others here have seen. If I change to a stickier tire, I'll probably have to modify the suspension to compensate, to keep the geometry in the sweet spot area.

Since it's highly likely that the scenario most here are talking about is with R-compound tires or something very close, yielding at least 1.3G worth of grip, I can easily see why there's such a disparity in opinions. I don't know what tires Barbaro runs, but I won't be surprised if they're street tires similar to mine, that are not so grippy as to take the suspension beyond its design limits.

The bottom line is this: when it comes to opinions and experiences, the details matter, a lot.
 
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barbaro

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I second K.C. Konis are not JRIs. We all know this. But they are an excellent shock for people that both street and track their car. No, you cannot lower them beyond an inch. But my belief is that if you are lowering beyond an inch you should get coilovers. And the bulk of the criticism is: "I knew a guy" "Someone told me . . ." "I heard . . . ." "I read . . . .. ."

I see both sides of the issue. I myself have blown them out. I have gone through a set running them too low. But that does not mean they are not good shocks. They are an excellent twin tube damper with consistent valving. Put them on a shock dyno and see. Some of you act like we should hang our heads in shame. Soon I will step it up with JRI and act like the lord some of you think you are, but I just installed a 302 R steering rack, Ford Racing Front Lower Control Arms, and 14 inch rear rotors. I got a new clutch, Max Motorsports K member and an MGW Race Spec shifter on the way. But after that I can be a damper elitist and maybe I can join the club of cognescenti. Meanwhile, those Bilstein Coilovers are cool, But if you are going to go coilovers why give up adjustability. Pay more, get more. Going from Konis to Bilsteins is a sideways move. So says Barbaro. So shall it be written. So shall it be done.
 
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Mustang259

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Love the discussion on struts, Im currently in the Bilstein camp, Ive used them before on other makes of vehicles and they are a very durable shock. I see the logic in Koni's but it would be very frustrating to have a failure, just like Im not a fan of some whiteline products as they have suffered with some failures of rear UCA and the bushing issues with the front sway bars, but that is another topic.
I have a question for those of you who have the experience with these shocks on the mustang, If you lower the front by 1 inch and the rear by 1.5, using reputable springs like Eibach pros for example, is that a recipe for disaster for either the Bilsteins or the Koni's? And if you add a stiffer front sway bar, say the New BMR 38mm bar with stiffer end links, does that spell doom for these shocks?
I honestly am a total nube regarding suspension and I really want to understand the effects these types of mods have on the Mustang.
 

csamsh

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Love the discussion on struts, Im currently in the Bilstein camp, Ive used them before on other makes of vehicles and they are a very durable shock. I see the logic in Koni's but it would be very frustrating to have a failure, just like Im not a fan of some whiteline products as they have suffered with some failures of rear UCA and the bushing issues with the front sway bars, but that is another topic.
I have a question for those of you who have the experience with these shocks on the mustang, If you lower the front by 1 inch and the rear by 1.5, using reputable springs like Eibach pros for example, is that a recipe for disaster for either the Bilsteins or the Koni's? And if you add a stiffer front sway bar, say the New BMR 38mm bar with stiffer end links, does that spell doom for these shocks?
I honestly am a total nube regarding suspension and I really want to understand the effects these types of mods have on the Mustang.

I blew a couple Konis autocrossing with Eibach pros. That's just my experience....so you shouldn't take it as anything other than anecdotal evidence, but, in my opinion, the Koni (or really any twin tube) design is not up to motorsports standards, unless you treat dampers as a wear item.
 

white86hatch

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I second K.C. Konis are not JRIs. We all know this. But they are an excellent shock for people that both street and track their car. No, you cannot lower them beyond an inch. But my belief is that if you are lowering beyond an inch you should get coilovers. And the bulk of the criticism is: "I knew a guy" "Someone told me . . ." "I heard . . . ." "I read . . . .. ."

I see both sides of the issue. I myself have blown them out. I have gone through a set running them too low. But that does not mean they are not good shocks. They are an excellent twin tube damper with consistent valving. Put them on a shock dyno and see. Some of you act like we should hang our heads in shame. Soon I will step it up with JRI and act like the lord some of you think you are, but I just installed a 302 R steering rack, Ford Racing Front Lower Control Arms, and 14 inch rear rotors. I got a new clutch, Max Motorsports K member and an MGW Race Spec shifter on the way. But after that I can be a damper elitist and maybe I can join the club of cognescenti. Meanwhile, those Bilstein Coilovers are cool, But if you are going to go coilovers why give up adjustability. Pay more, get more. Going from Konis to Bilsteins is a sideways move. So says Barbaro. So shall it be written. So shall it be done.
It was definitely a lateral move for me. But that's what my budget allowed at the time. I am content with the performance of the bilsteins for now. If I decided to keep this car and continue to develop my skills and racing schedule I'll most likely spend the money for real coil overs.
 

SlowJim

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I have a question for those of you who have the experience with these shocks on the mustang, If you lower the front by 1 inch and the rear by 1.5, using reputable springs like Eibach pros for example, is that a recipe for disaster for either the Bilsteins or the Koni's? And if you add a stiffer front sway bar, say the New BMR 38mm bar with stiffer end links, does that spell doom for these shocks?

No, the Pro-kits only lower 1" in front and 1.5 in back. It is a very mild drop (I have them and my car still looks like a 4x4). And I will report back, I have one HPDE and 8 autocrosses scheduled this summer and I plan on running my Whiteline bar on full stiff.
 

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