Am I ready for mods?

[VTXFrank]

I also get a little tired of the attitude that until you are superstar behind the wheel changing anything is verboten. Sure, calling up griggs after your first HPDE is going overboard, but spending $1000 making some sensible modifications to improve what we already know is weak is not.

I'd like to know what you can learn on stock springs that you can't after 1.2" drop, or what you can learn on OEM shocks that you can't on Konis?

But what do I know, I use R-comps to cover up my driving mistakes.

I agree with you guys.

I just can't imagine starting out learning how to track a car with mostly stock components. By putting the basics on there, you have more room to grow as your experience level increases.

But the biggest issue I see is learning bad habits. You start off with a stock Mustang, learn how to drive the various circuits you have access to and then, upgrade the hell out of your suspension and brakes, you'll have to start the learning process all over again. And no telling what bad habits you'll spend extra time on trying to rid yourself of in the process.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I also get a little tired of the attitude that until you are superstar behind the wheel changing anything is verboten. Sure, calling up griggs after your first HPDE is going overboard, but spending $1000 making some sensible modifications to improve what we already know is weak is not.

I'd like to know what you can learn on stock springs that you can't after 1.2" drop, or what you can learn on OEM shocks that you can't on Konis?

Okay, this is going to get a bit philosophical here...

First off, you DON'T need to be a superstar before you start modding the car, but a SOLID block of experience will go a long way towards realizing what pisses you off about the car, and how to fix THAT. Otherwise, you could wind up just throwing a pile of random parts onto the car, winding up hating what you have, but having no idea WHY you hate it, or how to fix it. So, another round of random parts, fighting the car, and then either finding a guy like Sam Strano to set you straight, or learning what works FOR YOU through pure trial-and-error.

A few examples:

1) The car pushes badly! I need coilovers, X5 ball joints, a bump-steer kit, and Hoosier tires to fix it. OR, just slow down a bit more at corner-entry, learn how to trailbrake, or start getting on the throttle a little sooner.

2) The car is wicked loose! I need a Watts link, LCA relocation brackets, a better differential, and Hoosier tires to fix it. OR, you could learn how to ROLL INTO the throttle, rather than whacking it down like an on-off switch.

In both cases above, we're talking about a stock car to begin with. In case 1, with poor entry technique, the only thing that will have any effect at all would be the tires. And all they'd be doing is masking poor driving technique. In case 2, the LCA brackets could easily make things worse! Again, the grip from the Ho-Hos would mask the poor driving habits, but are honestly not a fix.

When you get to the point of being consistently solid in your techniques, but find that you are limited by the stock setup, THEN it's time to fix the problems.

Let's revisit:

Case 1: The car pushes badly! But because I have experience, I now know that I have to brake earlier, get off the brake more smoothly to not upset the car at entry prior to turn-in, not to snap the wheel over like a hyperactive crack addict, but to get any mid-corner speed, I have to trailbrake heavily just to get rotation. Solution? Heavier springs to take the pitch-pole effect out of the braking action, and probably different bars to free up the rear end after the initial turn-in phase. Oh, and I'll need dampers to be able to control the springs.

Case 2: The car is wicked loose! But, because I have experience, and have learned the art of throttle modulation, I know that my issue is power oversteer, and not a component or geometry issue. Now that I have the corner entry figured out (see case 1), I'm carrying enough speed through the mid-corner phase that I don't feel the need to whack the throttle. Total cost: NO dollars.

The biggest factor is transferability. If you mod the hell out of your Mustang, and then learn how to drive the new platform with all it's good (and bad) manners, that does NOTHING for when you hop in a different car. If you learned how to modulate the brake and throttle, apply smooth but quick steering input, and know (from experience) how to read a track, you can hop into a Honda Civic, Nissan 350Z, WRX STi, another Mustang, a Z06, or a 458 Italia, and go out and DRIVE the car. You won't need the excuse of "I couldn't make the car go fast, because he didn't have Moton dampers..."

Long story short: If Boris Said could grab a bone-stock Mustang GT and whip ALL of our asses, in our highly modified machines, what does that tell you? Driver uber alles! Fix the driver issues first, and most of the handling woes will go away at the same time. Once you're getting everything you can out of the car, and you can identify a specific shortcoming (spring rates too low, I'll give you!), then you can change only what needs to be changed, with a minimal negative impact on the overall package.

I worked with a buddy about a month ago, with a 350Z. Bone stock except for Koni dampers and a StopTech brake kit with real pads. He was considering quite a number of changes, because he just couldn't get any transitional stability. I rode with him and his techniques were spot on, and the car just got loose on the switchbacks. We swapped seats, and I dropped his times by almost a half second a lap, simply by not downshifting through a particular section of the track. I kept it in fourth gear where he dropped to third, and because I had a smoother torque application as a result, I gained that touch of extra grip in the rear. I'm not any better of a driver than he is, I was just able to understand the dynamics of a car I've never driven before, because I've been focusing on the driver mod, and not the car mod. In the end, it's about weight transfer, the friction circle, and figuring out how to maximize what you have.

 

[Vapour Trails]

Dave, that's why a listed a low dollar amount and said "sensible modifications". Included under "sensible modifications" are researched opinions. I was really just talking about springs and dampers, not buying everything in the catalog ($300 for springs, $700 for Konis).

There's a middle ground between bone stock and replacing ever single thing possible. These conversations always go between extremes that rarely exist to prove a point. I agree with you on not going crazy replacing parts randomly, but on the other hand I think keeping everything bone stock is needlessly torturing yourself with really shitty components. The stock springs make the car feel like a SUV, they need to go.

Your examples of driver induced understeer and oversteer, they still exist when your car is modified. In the case of throttle induced oversteer, probably moreso in a car with an aftermarket tune (increased pedal sensitivity) and suspension modifications that result in the car being much more neutral. With aftermarket tunes, it's very easy to get the car rotating using the pedal, so it has only increased my awareness of the use of a light touch.

Overall, my car is more of a handful to drive than it ever was stock and I am keenly aware that it will bite me if I manhandle it. It is also a lot more fun to drive, and looks 10x better (no more 4x4). I really don't feel the learning process is inhibited by a few well thought out modifications. The driver mod and the mod mod can co-exist.

For record, all I have is Steeda sport springs, tokico d-specs and steeda sways. Cheap, simple and effective. This is really all I would ever recommend to anyone getting into corner carving.

 

[Sleeper_08]

OK here is my 2 cents worth. I agree with both of you.

If I was doing it over with a new 2012 Mustang it would be the Brembo package with appropriate pads, DOT4 fluid, the Steeda springs Sam suggests, Koni Yellows, Sam's adjustable bars and a set of Steeda HD strut mounts.

Plus of course my Enkei PF01s with 275/35/18 NT01s.

If I was a newbie it would be the same parts but with a good set of "square" street tires on 18 rims.

Yes the car can be tracked with stock components but it is just so much more satisfying with good springs, shock and bars. The stock components are naturally compromises and there is now a wealth of knowledge on what it takes to make these cars really good on the track.

It would also probably take me about 3 or 4 track sessions to decide again that the panhard bar had to be replaced by a FAYS2 Watt's link.

The driver is a huge factor. My brother gets to drive my car once a year at Mosport and on the same track on the same day he is consistently 5 to 6 seconds a lap faster. Every change i make to improve the speed of the car results in about the same difference.

 

[ArizonaGT]

Well, I guess someone has to stimulate the economy.

 

[snoxracer183]

The mod I would suggest making is going out and buying a Boss 302 Laguna Seca

 

[Sleeper_08]

The mod I would suggest making is going out and buying a Boss 302 Laguna Seca

I don't think you can get any more Boss 302 Laguna Seca's in Canada and if you could they are over list.

I'd rather spend about the same money and get a GT 500 or mod a GT so it would beat the LS for less money.

 

[silverstangz]

I got to drive my 02 stage 2 ROUSHon two different outings around Road Atlanta, and yep to think that Sooo many amazing drivers/cars have been there is awsome !! listen to what everyone here post, it will help soooooooo much nore than just pulling the trigger, and buying/installing something that" could "help YOUR driving, but it really is all in the driver.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'd like to know what you can learn on stock springs that you can't after 1.2" drop, or what you can learn on OEM shocks that you can't on Konis?

Offhand, I'd say that learning to drive with the lesser amount of axle roll steer that exists at stock height than you have with the car lowered is ultimately a good thing (this is assuming that all you do is install the shorter/stiffer springs and don't get into revising the geometry at all).

Dunno for sure about the effect from a difference in damping, other than you might teach your hands to be "slow" a little sooner [snip this]than you would[/snip] with less damping and more roll, and that if you can't play games with wildly staggered damper settings to crutch a driver shortcoming you won't be tempted to try to.


Norm

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Offhand, I'd say that learning to drive with the lesser amount of axle roll steer that exists at stock height than you have with the car lowered is ultimately a good thing (this is assuming that all you do is install the shorter/stiffer springs and don't get into revising the geometry at all).

Dunno for sure about the effect from a difference in damping, other than you might teach your hands to be "slow" a little sooner than you would with less damping and more roll, and that if you can't play games with wildly staggered damper settings to crutch a driver shortcoming you won't be tempted to try to.


Norm

I think we're heading in the right direction, here... With a stock setup, you have a fixed, known quantity on which to base your learning. As soon as you start hanging parts on the car to "fix" it, that fixed quantity is no longer there. Are your current woes because of driver error? Poor choice of component? Poor adjustment of said component? Side-effect of a particular component installation?

In addition, if you're a novice at this game (and we ALL start that way!) can you honestly differentiate between roll steer and compliance-induced snap-oversteer?

When you hear all the discussions on here about "lowering springs," can the novice really understand the ramifications of installing a set of those? And if they do, do they understand the implications of the effective wheel rates? As an example: "I installed these 1.5 inch lowering springs, and my car rides awesome! Only problem that I have is that it falls on it's face when I hit the brakes..." The issue that I see, time and time again, is what I call focus drift. A) I want "lowering springs." B) Everybody likes the Steeda Sport springs. C) The BMR springs have the same drop as the Steeda, and cost $50 less. D) My car now has the same drop as the Steeda setup, AND I saved money!

Now, what we have is a car that superficially looks similar to another, but handles nowhere NEAR as well, since the BMR rates are at or softer than stock, despite a generous reduction in ride height.

To Vapor Trails: I honestly didn't mean to imply that you were in that category! Yes, I was exaggerating for illustrative purposes, but really the descriptions that I offered were only paraphrases of posts we've all seen up here. Check out the Watts link discussions some time. I've driven S197's with stock PHB, full rod-end rear suspension with PHB, and rods with a Watts link. To me, on an open track (NOT autocross, I'm nowhere NEAR qualified to talk about that!), the Watts made absolutely NO difference in rear-axle control from a subjective standpoint. I would argue that the complexity and weight of the setup is NOT (necessarily) worth the marginal gains it MAY afford under CERTAIN conditions.

I'm not firing a shot across the bows of any Watts fans. If it's working for you, and you're happy with it and get good results, then great! I'm just saying that for me, there's just not enough of an appreciable difference under the conditions that I see.

Back to topic, though. Too many times you see misinformation spouted as gospel, and far too many people hanging parts on the car just for the sake of changing something "because the stock piece sucks." I agree that the stock spring rates and damper curves are less than optimal, but I can still drive around and through them. Using them as a base is simply a non-issue, unless and until the driver can honestly say that they are being hampered by excess load transfer, and that it's happening too quickly or slowly and upsetting the car at entry/apex/track-out. I would argue that until the driver is refined enough to understand and identify the issues that the car has, there's no pressing reason to change anything. Think of it this way: if the driver can't identify the issue, then the part selection for change is necessarily random.

 

[pcdrj]

Here's how I started this. I built a 500 hp supercharged Mustang, then installed a Griggs GR40 ST with every option available, Torsen T2R, TR6060 trans, and 315 Hoosiers...cause I like to tinker. Next I take the car to the track and find I can't keep up with 200 hp E30s and even some Miatas. A guy in a brand new bone stock Camaro was at least 2 second faster than me and no matter how hard I pushed the gas pedal, I couldn't catch him.

At the advise of a racer friend I parked the Mustang and started tracking and eventually racing a Miata. With a low power momentum car you quickly learn to properly manage the go fast pedal (brake), friction circle, and weight transfer because there ain't no power to recover speed once you've lost it. Learning to drive in a car that makes up for your mistakes will handicap your improvement as a driver. Even now I see some AI drivers who drive the power, not the chassis... and they are always at the back of the pack.

I whole-heartedly agree with Dave on this that driving a car with some shortcomings will teach you to drive much better and ultimately you'll have more fun.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Meant that to read . . .

Dunno for sure about the effect from a difference in damping, other than you might teach your hands to be "slow" a little sooner with less damping and more roll, . . .

It changes the whole sense.


Norm

 

[DusterRT]

It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.

The most common problem I see with people modding their cars right off the bat is they get caught up in the parts race and then...oops! I can't afford track time now!

 

[Norm Peterson]

I would argue that until the driver is refined enough to understand and identify the issues that the car has, there's no pressing reason to change anything. Think of it this way: if the driver can't identify the issue, then the part selection for change is necessarily random.

Mind if I make that "semi-random"? There does seem to be some fairly well-defined directions that give "good enough" results in most of the actual cases. I'm not talking about for those who might be expected to have some clue, either with lots of track, test, or autocross driving under their belt or those with engineering experience. It's the rest, the ones who have read forum discussions and/or seen the magazine and online ads.


I am reminded of the state the home audio market was back in the early 1970's, when those of us just entering the workforce were looking move up from an "all-in-one" unit to a component system. If you were looking for something decent without spending a ton of $ on something that performed beyond your ability to notice, there were a few "no-brainer packages" that you could put together and be entirely happy with for years. Optimum? No. But more than adequate.

This whole suspension modding thing has the same flavor to it.

(BTW, I still have some of my original stereo stuff hooked up.)


Norm