FRPP Intake Manifold stumble? (To keep or not)

[702GT]

so you also went from ht1 to ht0 at the same time as the manifold?

Yes. As I said, I've pulled the plugs a few times and no gap or damage issues.

just curious...when you say the motor is poppy, is it popping back thru the intake, or thru the exhaust?

It's definately popping out the exhaust.

This really stuck out to me as well.

If you've checked the manifold itself, and all connections for leaks that's one problem out of the way.

If you trust your tuner but you say this:


I'm a bit concerned over your tuners capabilities if HE can't interpret datalog readings since you're running his tune.

Summary: if there's no air leaks, then tune or spark or both.

My tuner has Datalogged the car on the dyno during those conditions. What am I going to show him that he doesn't already know about. I'm talking about tuners at BBR or tech savy people on the S197forum.

Just swap it. It will only take like an hour.

If there was a "Like" button on posts you'd get one lol.

 

[Davenow]

I gotta think its the tune. Unless the manifold is damaged.

 

[702GT]

I'm 99.9% positive the manifold is not damaged unless I myself damaged it somehow during installation or re-installation. I inspected the manifold as soon as I received it from Ford Racing. While I didn't put it under a microscope, there wasn't any obvious damage. The box came in perfect condition and show no signs of ever being dropped.

The nice thing is I'm not sweating this either way. If I end up going back to the stock manifold I can at least look forward to my torque coming back. If this results in the issue being fixed, I get to keep the manifold on and not worry about it anymore. It's all win/win guys. Keep it coming, I've asked Lito if he's willing to look at my issue and he seems to be in the affirmative about it, so I'm really looking forward to a 2nd tuner's opinion!


Edit: Also, keep in mind I've had the manifold on the car since LAST November. As in like, 11/28/10. All the conditions that were present then are present now and nothing has changed since then. Plugs/MAF/air filter all the same since the day the manifold went on, MAF and air filter have been cleaned twice since then, and was cleaned prior to tuning. I went out and re-checked all my lines to make sure they're all seated fully, started the car and sprayed it all down with MAF cleaner to confirm, not even a bump.

I'm going to check those injector O-rings this weekend since it isn't a big deal to remove/reinstall, just to eliminate that possibility as well. Whenever I install injectors, I always use a little vasoline to grease the O-rings before they get pushed in, something my buddy got me into the habbit of.

 

[Lee's05GT]

We have the same set up pretty much minus intake and I have Mac longtubes, I haven't ran into any issues with mine like you have described.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Davenow]

Get a can of carb cleaner, start the car and spray it around the base of the manifold, and around the injectors. See if the idle changes at all.

I dont think a small leak would cause the problem you are having, but its worth checking out.

 

[01yellerCobra]

Why not throw in the old plugs just to make sure it's not the new plugs? It seems some people on here have problems with new plugs occasionally.

 

[702GT]

Get a can of carb cleaner, start the car and spray it around the base of the manifold, and around the injectors. See if the idle changes at all.

I dont think a small leak would cause the problem you are having, but its worth checking out.

I just did that today, no leak at idle. But as a previous reply stated, he had a leak at his injectors inconsistantly, which is why I'll remove and inspect mine tomorrow.

I feel the same about the small leak, but vaccuum conditions change depending on throttle position, load, and rpm. So under certain conditions you'll have more vaccuum than other conditions. It might be at 3k/rpm at those conditions there is enough vaccuum to cause a leak. A leak at the injectors I could see causing issues, as it would affect spray pattern at the very least. While I'm sure I sealed them properly, it's possible I overlooked a bad O-ring.

Why not throw in the old plugs just to make sure it's not the new plugs? It seems some people on here have problems with new plugs occasionally.

My blood pressure goes up when I have to remove the HT plugs, I will avoid replacing them until milage dictates or I can more firmly verify they could be the cause. I pull them every 10k/mi to re-anti sieze the plugs. Did a tune up on my buddies dad's 3v 5.4 F-150 and broke I think 5 out of 8 plugs off in the heads. Can't remember how many miles on the truck but it was fairly new. It was a nightmare. I keep my plugs lathered in anti-sieze just out of maintenance. I won't rule out the plugs, but I'd like for Lito to look at the datalogs before I go force myself into a mini-stroke.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

My tuner has Datalogged the car on the dyno during those conditions. What am I going to show him that he doesn't already know about. I'm talking about tuners at BBR or tech savy people on the S197forum.
.

How about REAL TIME data collection? A dyno is more for WOT tuning and the atmospheric conditions during tuning sessions are consistent versus riding in the car in real time under different loads and conditions.

MANY of times my cars/motorcycles would not replicate an issue on a dyno that I was having in real time riding/driving. Datalogging very often revealed the problem and it was "fixed".

Maybe I'm misunderstanding if your dynotuner can or can't interpret datalogging sessions.............

 

[JeremyH]

My frpp manifold had the pop/backfire too initialy. I could reproduce it every time at a certain rpm by stabbing the throttle for a second. After the dyno tune was finished it is completely gone and hasnt done it since.

BTW no worries on the autolite ht series plugs they have a nickel plated sheath that wont corrode and fuze causing the breakage associated with the original oem all copper plugs.

 

[702GT]

Yes, he rode in the car with his laptop while I drove on the streets to repeat the conditions if that's what you're getting at. We have several datalog files. We spent an hour in the car one night, it was a hot date. Don't get me wrong either, when I say I trust him, I mean I have faith that he knows what he's doing and not just throwing timing and fuel at the car trying to squish the problem. I'm not saying he isn't without error. People are only human, that's why I look to other tuners for a second set of eyes. You never know what one person overlooks, another may catch. My tuner has years of experience, but other tuners have decades. If Lito finds something in the datalogs that my tuner didn't inturpret, Lito will be THE MAN and I will still have great respect for my tuner as well.

 

[one.wicked.stang]

I'm 99.9% positive the manifold is not damaged unless I myself damaged it somehow during installation or re-installation. I inspected the manifold as soon as I received it from Ford Racing. While I didn't put it under a microscope, there wasn't any obvious damage. The box came in perfect condition and show no signs of ever being dropped.

The nice thing is I'm not sweating this either way. If I end up going back to the stock manifold I can at least look forward to my torque coming back. If this results in the issue being fixed, I get to keep the manifold on and not worry about it anymore. It's all win/win guys. Keep it coming, I've asked LITO if he's willing to look at my issue and he seems to be in the affirmative about it, so I'm really looking forward to a 2nd tuner's opinion!


Edit: Also, keep in mind I've had the manifold on the car since LAST November. As in like, 11/28/10. All the conditions that were present then are present now and nothing has changed since then. Plugs/MAF/air filter all the same since the day the manifold went on, MAF and air filter have been cleaned twice since then, and was cleaned prior to tuning. I went out and re-checked all my lines to make sure they're all seated fully, started the car and sprayed it all down with MAF cleaner to confirm, not even a bump.

I'm going to check those injector O-rings this weekend since it isn't a big deal to remove/reinstall, just to eliminate that possibility as well. Whenever I install injectors, I always use a little vasoline to grease the O-rings before they get pushed in, something my buddy got me into the habbit of.

I was going to suggest LITO, but looks like youve already made contact, he knows his stuff...

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Yes, he rode in the car with his laptop while I drove on the streets to repeat the conditions if that's what you're getting at. We have several datalog files. We spent an hour in the car one night, it was a hot date. Don't get me wrong either, when I say I trust him, I mean I have faith that he knows what he's doing and not just throwing timing and fuel at the car trying to squish the problem. I'm not saying he isn't without error. People are only human, that's why I look to other tuners for a second set of eyes. You never know what one person overlooks, another may catch. My tuner has years of experience, but other tuners have decades. If Lito finds something in the datalogs that my tuner didn't inturpret, Lito will be THE MAN and I will still have great respect for my tuner as well.

Cool, I understand! Hope you get it figured out. Mine runs like a champ, but that doesn't help you any. Will follow to see if it gets resolved and how!

 

[randys06v6]

I had a similar problem and replaced my o2 sensors and all was fixed. The passengers side basically clogged up on me meaning failed reading properly through certain rpms at certain throttle pressures. It all started when I put on my frpp manifold as well and the car just freaked out on me i guess and the o2 sensors went out lol. So I just replaced the rear 2 and all was fixed. The front 2 I have off becaue of my long tubes so I didnt worry about them

Could it also be in the tune for the o2 sensors? Meaning like maybe they didn't make the tune aware that the o2 sensors are moved further downstream, thus causing an issue with reading exhaust flow correctly especially at certain rpms?

 

[702GT]

My buddy and I found something interesting last night while we were doing some more vac leak checks. He noticed on the seam of the 2 halfs of the manifold where they are bolted together look like it may have a severe leak. All along that seam in many spots there's oil. Not like caked on or oozing/running, but like a fine build up. I'll get pics posted tomorrow morning. I don't know anything about the makeup of the guts of the FRPP, but my guess is there's also a gasket that seals the upper to the lower. We douched the seam with carb cleaner and wiped it down, started the car, and douched it again, but the rpm's didn't fluctuate, not that'd I'd notice subtle changes in the rpm with the cams thumpin away. But, the engine did change tone slightly and my wideband skipped .3-.9 points leaner than it usually sways. (Typical idle for me is 14.5-15.1, usually hangs out at 14.7. After spraying the seam it skips between 14.5-16.0. I usually only see 16 if I let off the gas really fast, I don't see it at idle) Even after wiping the seam dry, we let the engine run for a minute and you could see that little bit of oil starting to build at the seam again.

Culprit? Very possible. Still curious, if that is the issue, why doesn't it mess with the performance of the car? And why don't I have lean conditions at WOT? Also, why would it only affect that 3k/rpm range?

The Techline listed for the FRPP manifold probably won't be open 'til monday, and I'm sure if a gasket is what I need, I'll be waiting for that. I kind of want to send the manifold back and make them leak test it. In very bold print in the instructions provided with the manifold, the manufacturer states that each manifold is leak/pressure tested before it's packaged and shipped. How does a gasket that I've never touched or removed go bad so quick? Was it ever right from the factory?

Unless I get a better understanding of this phenomenon, it's looking like the stocker's going back on. Anybody know the inner workings of the FRPP manifold or heard of one leaking at the seam? Pics tomorrow!

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

My buddy and I found something interesting last night while we were doing some more vac leak checks. He noticed on the seam of the 2 halfs of the manifold where they are bolted together look like it may have a severe leak. All along that seam in many spots there's oil. Not like caked on or oozing/running, but like a fine build up. I'll get pics posted tomorrow morning. I don't know anything about the makeup of the guts of the FRPP, but my guess is there's also a gasket that seals the upper to the lower. We douched the seam with carb cleaner and wiped it down, started the car, and douched it again, but the rpm's didn't fluctuate, not that'd I'd notice subtle changes in the rpm with the cams thumpin away. But, the engine did change tone slightly and my wideband skipped .3-.9 points leaner than it usually sways. (Typical idle for me is 14.5-15.1, usually hangs out at 14.7. After spraying the seam it skips between 14.5-16.0. I usually only see 16 if I let off the gas really fast, I don't see it at idle) Even after wiping the seam dry, we let the engine run for a minute and you could see that little bit of oil starting to build at the seam again.

Culprit? Very possible. Still curious, if that is the issue, why doesn't it mess with the performance of the car? And why don't I have lean conditions at WOT? Also, why would it only affect that 3k/rpm range?

The Techline listed for the FRPP manifold probably won't be open 'til monday, and I'm sure if a gasket is what I need, I'll be waiting for that. I kind of want to send the manifold back and make them leak test it. In very bold print in the instructions provided with the manifold, the manufacturer states that each manifold is leak/pressure tested before it's packaged and shipped. How does a gasket that I've never touched or removed go bad so quick? Was it ever right from the factory?

Unless I get a better understanding of this phenomenon, it's looking like the stocker's going back on. Anybody know the inner workings of the FRPP manifold or heard of one leaking at the seam? Pics tomorrow!

When I bought my FRPP intake I was skeptical regarding the "flexing" we saw with introduction so I PM'd 19COBRA93, the forum member here that works for FORD, and asked him if there was a revision done. He said:

"They're all the same part number, and actually the same casting (injection molds). The later versions are glued together rather than bolted/gasket. That's the only difference. Technically, they'll all "flex" still. So far the flexing has proven to cause zero problems.

To identify which one is which, the older ones have all the case-half bolts (holding the two halves together) installed in the intake (about 20 of them around the parameter of the intake, and the new glued ones have all the bolts/washers in a bag in addition to the bag for the regular bolts/washers that bolt it to the head."


in of which I replied if FORD was swapping out the initial versions of the FRPP intakes for newer ones for the people that are having trouble with the older version and he said:

There's no difference in integrity, and since there's not an actual "problem" with the older ones, Ford Racing isn't swapping them out. They did send out an email suggesting on high boost applications to separate them and apply a bead of silicone to gasket area and bolt them back together.

I have the older version on my car that is unaltered. I'm currently seeing 19lbs and I haven't had a problem with it. I just had it off 2 nights ago to install and IAT sensor, and I saw no signs of leaking or problems with it.

So try taking it apart and putting a bead of hi-quality silicone between the 2 halves and bolt it back up.

 

[01yellerCobra]

I had a similar problem and replaced my o2 sensors and all was fixed. The passengers side basically clogged up on me meaning failed reading properly through certain rpms at certain throttle pressures. It all started when I put on my frpp manifold as well and the car just freaked out on me i guess and the o2 sensors went out lol. So I just replaced the rear 2 and all was fixed. The front 2 I have off becaue of my long tubes so I didnt worry about them

Could it also be in the tune for the o2 sensors? Meaning like maybe they didn't make the tune aware that the o2 sensors are moved further downstream, thus causing an issue with reading exhaust flow correctly especially at certain rpms?

Shouldn't that be the other way around? The fronts are the ones the ECU uses to adjust A/F. The rears are for emissions. At least that's how it is on the older computers.

 

[702GT]

When I bought my FRPP intake I was skeptical regarding the "flexing" we saw with introduction so I PM'd 19COBRA93, the forum member here that works for FORD, and asked him if there was a revision done. He said:

"They're all the same part number, and actually the same casting (injection molds). The later versions are glued together rather than bolted/gasket. That's the only difference. Technically, they'll all "flex" still. So far the flexing has proven to cause zero problems.

To identify which one is which, the older ones have all the case-half bolts (holding the two halves together) installed in the intake (about 20 of them around the parameter of the intake, and the new glued ones have all the bolts/washers in a bag in addition to the bag for the regular bolts/washers that bolt it to the head."


in of which I replied if FORD was swapping out the initial versions of the FRPP intakes for newer ones for the people that are having trouble with the older version and he said:

There's no difference in integrity, and since there's not an actual "problem" with the older ones, Ford Racing isn't swapping them out. They did send out an email suggesting on high boost applications to separate them and apply a bead of silicone to gasket area and bolt them back together.

I have the older version on my car that is unaltered. I'm currently seeing 19lbs and I haven't had a problem with it. I just had it off 2 nights ago to install and IAT sensor, and I saw no signs of leaking or problems with it.

So try taking it apart and putting a bead of hi-quality silicone between the 2 halves and bolt it back up.

Will I void the warranty on the manifold if I take it apart? Here's the pics, not as bad as when we first found it, but for the drive home and 12 hours later, you can see somethings up with it. Only took a pic of one spot on both passenger and drivers side of the manifold, you get the idea it looks like this most of the way around the seam:

P/S

D/S

 

[702GT]

Pulled the intake manifold apart, gasket wasn't bad but you could see where oil had built up was getting through. Silicone RTV'd it back together and put it all back on, definately no vac leaks. Also inspected the injector O-rings, they are good. Car still stumbles at 3k/rpm, will be going back to Lito's plan and datalogging some events, see what he thinks of it. Will post up a pic of the FRPP's guts, kinda neat to see the inside.

 

[702GT]

Kinda neat

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Man, I wish that would have fixed it for you since you went through all that trouble!!!!!!!!!!!! I certainly hope you get it fixed.