Watts link or struts/springs??

[Sam Strano]

If you guys want less adjustment, that's up to you. I've personally had and used 3 Fays2 units on my own car. I've daily driven them, I've tracked them and autocrossed them all. I managed to install all without guessing. In fact I can't understand why SkyRender would say such a thing. I've sold 42 since 6/11 (and many before that, just don't have those records available). In fact I've only had one return on one, ever. ONE. Whiskey11's findings are exactly what most people find. And I'm not sure how Sky can claim that it was so loud and all that when he never even actually put it on the car, by his own admission.

And the point was made on the weight. Remember, despite what some folks want you to believe, I carry Whiteline so if you want one, that's ok... I just think that for my money I prefer different things with more roll center adjustment, and I like the frame/pivot setup of the Steeda and Fays2 unit better than a bit heavy diff cover that also doesn't help with the cooling of the differential. All kinds of claims are made, but the fact remains the Fays2 has a pretty good and proven track record. You might not like the rules of SCCA autocross, and that's ok, but the point it the top 3 cars @ Nationals in ESP--which is the pony car class-- had a Fays2 installed. two F-bodies and one S197 Mustang. Can't be too bad, and fwiw, the guy who keeps winning ESP every year since I last ran there took a big jump in times vs. F-stock (where I was running) the very year he installed the Fays2 on his Trans Am.

As for the difference in "trust" at 30 mph and 100. What I can I say? There is footage of me driving my old Camaro on a track, on race tires, with a Fays2. No issues. Also an accident on the street at 80 mph would be pretty scary too. And here's the thing, if you are pulling 1g, or 1.4, or whatever, it's 1 or 1.4 regardless of speed. So if you think something will break at a given point, autocross is as likely to fail it as the track is. Probably more so given the much higher transition rates and loads.

It's clear that many folks want to believe what they want to believe. If you want to talk about things and discuss, ok. I think a Griggs Watts (which I don't carry) or a Whiteline (which I do) work fine. I think there are better more adjustable options that are a better value. You can feel free to disagree, and I will with you too if I think you are wrong, or there is a better option. And I'll tell you exactly why I think what I do. Others can then decide on their own.

I compete myself. I like to win as much as anyone. I won't run crap that doesn't work. 3 times in fact I've dumped product lines because they were either crap, or a nightmare to deal with. I'm very independent, and that pisses a lot of folks off in every direction. But there is no pandering, I run what I have found to work best, for me. And I've tried a lot of stuff, on a lot of cars.

 

[sheizasosay]

I I just think that for my money I prefer different things with more roll center adjustment, and I like the frame/pivot setup of the Steeda and Fays2 unit better than a bit heavy diff cover that also doesn't help with the cooling of the differential.

Your preference for the axle clamp style has NOTHING to do with roll couple not changing with axle clamp style? Seems to me, that was really the #1 on the list off of a lot of "axle clamp vs diff mounted watts" type discussions/debates.

 

[Sky Render]

Even an angle finder wouldn't help you when the instructions tell you to clock a clamp "around the 4 or 5 o'clock position." My point is that the instructions are kind of vague on how to install the thing, and there seemed to be a lot of "degrees of freedom" inherent in the design. There was little guidance on where to mount the clamps laterally on the axle tubes and at what angle they were supposed to be. You could argue that there are multiple "right ways to do it," but Sam told me if it isn't installed correctly the linkage will bind and shear the propeller's center bolt clean off.

My biggest concern was the lateral loads that would be placed on those clamps if it wasn't installed 100% perfectly. Would it be possible to weld those clamps onto the axle tubes?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Would it be possible to weld those clamps onto the axle tubes?

Yep. I very well may do that, just for peace of mind, though I know I would be the exception rather than the rule in choosing to do so.

 

[Whiskey11]

Even an angle finder wouldn't help you when the instructions tell you to clock a clamp "around the 4 or 5 o'clock position." My point is that the instructions are kind of vague on how to install the thing, and there seemed to be a lot of "degrees of freedom" inherent in the design. There was little guidance on where to mount the clamps laterally on the axle tubes and at what angle they were supposed to be. You could argue that there are multiple "right ways to do it," but Sam told me if it isn't installed correctly the linkage will bind and shear the propeller's center bolt clean off.

My biggest concern was the lateral loads that would be placed on those clamps if it wasn't installed 100% perfectly. Would it be possible to weld those clamps onto the axle tubes?

Jim says in the instructions something like 4 times that the angles on the arms have to be equal but opposite angles so that the arms are parallel at static ride height. He also states the arms have to be the same length. That will dictate all you need to know on lateral location of the clamps.

 

[Roadracer350]

I like the compactness of the WHITELINE and it simplicity. Very easy to install and easy to set up and adjust. Plus I don't have to weld anything to my rear end. As for cooling just install a diff cooler.

 

[19COBRA93]

I would actually really like to know the unsprung weight of both the Fays2 and the Whiteline components. Does anyone know right off hand, or can someone weigh some parts real quick?

 

[Roadracer350]

I can get you a weight for the Whiteline this afternoon

 

[Whiskey11]

I would actually really like to know the unsprung weight of both the Fays2 and the Whiteline components. Does anyone know right off hand, or can someone weigh some parts real quick?

Fully assembled Fays2 unit: (photo its upside down, it is 29lbs)

If I was smart I would have weighed the arms and clamps with it all assembled to get the best approximation of unsprung weight.

 

[Sky Render]

Packaged weight of the Whiteline unit is 15.5 kg, or approximately 34.1 lbs. That includes packaging (obviously) and also includes a differential cover that replaces the factory one.

I think you're right; they weigh about the same. I'm surprised how light the Fays2 unit really is; I thought it was heavier.

 

[a50cobra]

OP: If you are currently running a stock set up and the choices are a set of $1k coil overs or a watts link, spend your hard earned $ on some struts/shocks and springs. My guess is that the $1k coil overs will be of inferior quality and you will ultimately be unhappy with them and spending more money (again) in the future replacing them. And a watts link without proper suspension will only give you limited benefit.

You know it's funny, the Fays2 weighs exactly the same as the Whiteline Watts link, 29lbs, but the difference is that the 29lbs in the Fays2 is mostly sprung weight vs mostly unsprung weight on the Whiteline.

I've had my Fays2 on for 8000 miles and 8 months on the surfaces pretending to be roads in Nebraska. No additional noise. There are plenty of ways to install it exactly. It's called an angle finder. How do you know what exactly it sounds like if you never installed yours? Mine is DEAD silent, no rod end noise and YES I do know what rod end noise is, I had the Strano/UMI Competition Endlinks which have some pretty lack luster QA1 Chinese rod ends on them and mine are looser than a whore in the red light district.

I'll keep my kludge of a system as it flat out works and works damn well.

I am with Whiskey on this one. I have a Fays and I DD/AutoX/HPDE. I've had ZERO additional noise. I will also comment that I don't think a watts link is the Holy Grail of suspension components as others hold it out to be. Does it help? Sure. But not as much as other suspension bits. They all have to play nice together.

Installation was not as difficult as Sky makes it seem. I found the directions were a good starting point ("between 4 and 5 o'clock..."), then you make sure you have the same angles on both arms. Move the arms until you find your angles then tighten. I came back after about 100 miles and rechecked to make sure nothing came loose. Done.

I have not driven nor installed a WL unit, so I can't comment on ease of installation vs. a Fays, or if it handles any better (which I doubt - they both do the same thing). But SoundGuyDave said it right, you only need ONE adjustment - the right one. I guess I am still searching for MY "right one" and having more than two adjustment points is fine by me. YMMV, etc., etc.

 

[Whiskey11]

Packaged weight of the Whiteline unit is 15.5 kg, or approximately 34.1 lbs. That includes packaging (obviously) and also includes a differential cover that replaces the factory one.

I think you're right; they weigh about the same. I'm surprised how light the Fays2 unit really is; I thought it was heavier.

Jared (from Whiteline) weighed the unit right at 29 lbs so they weigh the same give or take a few tenths of a pound. The new diff cover should be included in the weight just like the frame on the Fays2 should be since it is required for the install.

If it isn't too frigid tonight I will drag that scale down stairs to the garage and weigh the arms to "determine" the unsprung weight change from a pan hard bar although I'm sure it won't be much.

 

[Sharad]

So only have little over a 1K budget and am looking at either Steeda Watts Link or Coilover Kit. Curious which setup will be more progressive towards slicing through the corners?

On a $1000 budget with stock suspension, I'd buy Koni Yellows, lowering springs, and LCAs. Those mods will make a substantial improvement in handling for a relatively small amount of money.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

If it isn't too frigid tonight I will drag that scale down stairs to the garage and weigh the arms to "determine" the unsprung weight change from a pan hard bar although I'm sure it won't be much.

Both clamp on axle brackets and hardware and one arm and hardware equal unsprung weight. Do we win a prize for guessing? 8.67 pounds

 

[Roadracer350]

I just weighed each individual part and added them up and I got 27.750lbs for the Whiteline watts.

 

[19COBRA93]

I just weighed each individual part and added them up and I got 27.750lbs for the Whiteline watts.

What about unsprung parts? Diff cover with hardware, propeller with attaching parts, and one arm. Then I guess we can subtract whatever the stock diff cover weighs for a final number. I would imagine the Griggs, and Cortex would both weigh in at similar numbers to the Whiteline stuff.

Anyone with Fays2 stuff laying around care to weigh the unsprung parts?

 

[Whiskey11]

Both clamp on axle brackets and hardware and one arm and hardware equal unsprung weight. Do we win a prize for guessing? 8.67 pounds

Well... I don't know what to say, my bathroom scale that I used for the picture above would not hold the weight on the indicator long enough to get a photo taken. One side was 5.5lbs with me holding on to the frame of the Watts link and the other arm. The arm going to the clamp being weighed was oriented so it was horizontal but was otherwise NOT supported. The other arm/clamp combo weighed in at 7lbs. Sorry, nothing more accurate than that because my Bathroom scale only goes in half pound increments and due to the cold weather and the low weights there is no way to know how accurate that number is. I tried though!

 

[Roadracer350]

I used a shipping scale. Now when I weighed I put the diff cover on and weighed, all bolts and hard wear, arms everything. All the bolts and stuff are still I the bag.

 

[Sky Render]

How much does the stock diff cover weigh? If you're including the weight of the Whiteline differential cover, you should include the weight of the OEM one with the Fays2 unit.

 

[Roadracer350]

Oh I have no clue. I'm assuming (we all know what assume means) that it will be pretty light due to it being stamped steel. I don't have a stock one to weigh.