Supercharger for Road Racing

Department Of Boost

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I don’t want to be misunderstood here.

If I were doing 3-4 track days a year and driving the car on the street all the time I would not give up my blower for ANYTHING!

Now if I were doing 1+ track day a month and the car was more track focused (bar, big brakes, stripped interior, slicky tires, towing it to track, etc) it would be NA for sure.

As much of a PITA the heat is on the track it doesn’t even get close to outweighing the ability to dip the clutch and smoke the tires at 60mph when cruising around town.:clap:
 

NEMustang

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Funny, I've long looked at your signature and thought, I might want to sell my S/C, get those Comp 127500 Cams and FRPP intake, K member, and call it even with the weight loss and power loss. I guess you've found that even that isn't enough?

Actually, the setup that I have right now has let me win 8 of my last 9 events...only losing (2nd) to a ERA Ford GT at Watkins Glen. I'm putting down 360-370 rwhp with those mods...all motor...not bad for a little 4.6L.

But, I think that I'm near the top going N/A...so, I'm exploring the Procharger as an option...lighter, less boost, probably less heat soak than a TS...looking at options. I guess that I could give it a shot...if it's not for me, pull it off and sell it.

I think I'd really like that extra 80 hp at the top end down the back straight at the Glen!! I'm pulling about 138mph...some others are pulling 150 mph...12 mph is huge.
 

sheizasosay

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Keep the blower in it's range is big. I think with a decent upgraded heat exchanger and the right pulley you will get a lot more consitency out of your car on a road course. I'm not a big fan of the afco dual fan HE, but that puppy would sure as hell shine on your cool down lap and when you have to park while the next group goes out on the track. Pulley swap on a blower is easy for a lot of units. You could always have a street/ 1/4 mile pulley setup and then when you goto the road course have a pulley that isn't so overzealous.

I got heat soaked pretty good, but was still hitting only 5mph less on the straights from my first cold run of the day. That is acceptable to me, but I would prefer zero loss. I'm willing to wager my car did a LOT of cooking when it was parked. Having that dual fan HE would probably be where it's at, unless you wanna get all high tech and get the Killer Chiller or something.

Me personally, I would grab that blower you want and just use the pulleys as "heat tuning". Road courses aren't the only place we enjoy our cars.
 

NEMustang

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If I had to do it again, 5.0 Boss motor on 93 pump gas. The rest is in the shoe.

Why not do a built Coyote swap and stay NA?

If guys are beating you down the straights, then work on keeping your corner speeds up. :)

All that it takes is $$$!

I get a good exit at turn 1 at the Glen, redline 3rd, shift to 4th and I'm WOT throught the esses, back straight until the bus stop...again, I'm between 136-138 top speed...unless I get one of those pesky, slow ass BMWs in my way...
 
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pcdrj

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All that it takes is $$$!

I get a good exit at turn 1 at the Glen, redline 3rd, shift to 4th and I'm WOT throught the esses, back straight until the bus stop...again, I always between 136-138 top speed...unless I get one of those pesky, slow ass BMWs in my way...

What are you times for VIR Full, and WG with the bus stop?
 

NEMustang

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What are you times for VIR Full, and WG with the bus stop?

Never ran VIR...best is 2:11 at the Glen..full course (bus stop/shoe). Ran a 2:13 with a blown right front shock. That was an adventure...Probably could have gotten to 2:10 if I didn't have the shock problem on new stickies...I love that track!
 

Department Of Boost

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Actually, the setup that I have right now has let me win 8 of my last 9 events...only losing (2nd) to a ERA Ford GT at Watkins Glen. I'm putting down 360-370 rwhp with those mods...all motor...not bad for a little 4.6L.

But, I think that I'm near the top going N/A...so, I'm exploring the Procharger as an option...lighter, less boost, probably less heat soak than a TS...looking at options. I guess that I could give it a shot...if it's not for me, pull it off and sell it.

I think I'd really like that extra 80 hp at the top end down the back straight at the Glen!! I'm pulling about 138mph...some others are pulling 150 mph...12 mph is huge.

Don't forget that when it comes to boost and heat as long as the blower is not being over spun 8psi will make "X" heat no matter what blower you are running. A Procharger making 8psi will have the exact same discharge temps that a Whipple running 8psi will. If you are looking for low IAT's it will come down to what you are doing to cool those discharge temps.

Keep in mind if you run a blower with a air-water intercooler you can set it up to run the cooling system between sessions. I run all my pumps and fans between sessions and it helps out TREMEDOUSLY. Can't do that with a air-air setup.

Good luck.
 

19COBRA93

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Don't forget that when it comes to boost and heat as long as the blower is not being over spun 8psi will make "X" heat no matter what blower you are running. A Procharger making 8psi will have the exact same discharge temps that a Whipple running 8psi will.


This is certainly debatable. Even though the pressure is the same, each one will be at a different place on their compressor maps compared to each other. Temps will not be the same. They'll be close yes, but not the same. One will be more efficient than the other at the same boost level.
 

Thekid760

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All that it takes is $$$!


It seems like a lot, but only because it is all upfront.

Factor in the cost of the sc kit plus tuning, plus the extra cooling crap, plus the forged motor.

It seems to me that a built coyote would be the same or a little cheaper depending on how built it is.
 

NEMustang

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It seems like a lot, but only because it is all upfront.

Factor in the cost of the sc kit plus tuning, plus the extra cooling crap, plus the forged motor.

It seems to me that a built coyote would be the same or a little cheaper depending on how built it is.

...don't forget the GT500 dual fuel pumps at $600+
You have similar numbers to me with, I assume, an N/A motor...what mods do you have?

Yes, I wrestle with this everyday...do I return my GS/CS to stock, sell it, sell most of the mods seperately and buy a coyote or Boss...or do I keep modding this one? That's all whole different discussion...let's keep it that way! :tj: ...I started to jack my own thread!
 

tbrock

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I do a couple of open track days per years with my setup. I have a Saleen SC'r with a 6.5 lid, AFCO non fanned HE, and I have this coolant tank. http://www.lethalperformance.com/05-09-mustang-gt/cooling/intercooler-reservoirs/lethal-performance-05-07-whipple-h-o-intercooler-reservoir.html

I run a 3.0 pulley for the street and drag strip and I use a 3.2 pulley for the road course with race gas or 91 and a can of torco. I also have a functional hood scoop which puts cooler air right on the top of the supercharger lid and motor. With the increased capacity of the HE and the coolant tank my IAT's are much cooler than stock. My next upgrade is going to be a Meizere 30 gpm coolant pump and an AFCO radiator. For my use I love the FI for the street and track. Good luck with your decision.
 

Department Of Boost

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My next upgrade is going to be a Meizere 30 gpm coolant pump.
Meziere doesn't make a 30gpm pump. They do make a 35gpm unit though. But the 35gpm unit takes up as much space and costs nearly the same as the 55gpm pumps do. May as well get one of those, they work great!
 
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Vorshlag-Fair

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+1 for the vote to always stay NA for track cars. :thumb2:

We do a lot of track events, and I've been going to these for 25+ years. The number one type of problem I see at these events is engine failures from boosted cars. It is a combination of heat soak, insufficient cooling capacity, and that dreaded "just a little more boost" bug that bites people when they get greedy. Most of my friends in college and many after were "boost junkies" and would come do track events ... but most of them had serious engine trouble.

Even factory turbocharged cars have problems all the time. At the last NASA event I competed in, two of the Time Trial EVOs scattered motors on track, and those are stout iron-block Mitsubishi motors.

Superchargers are great power adders for drag racing, and even fun for street use, but they just don't have the reliability for sustained Wide Open Throttle, high load, heat soaking, lap-after-lap road course use. Not in HPDE, not in W2W racing. You can just never make boosted engines as reliable as an NA motor, and they will always be fuel/heat/knock sensitive. So VERY few W2W road race builds are boosted, and this is for good reason.

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Sure, some infrequent HPDE events - where you only take a few hot laps at a time - it can work. In events that focus on getting only ONE fast lap time - Global Time Attack - almost ALL of the entries are CRAZY boost buggies. But those guys make 1 or 2 laps in a session and come in... when we ran GTA the only cars that stayed out the entire session, making a LOT more laps, were the NA cars.

I cannot deny that power potential of a supercharger or turbocharger. Or even nitrous. Chemically adding oxygen (N2) or "un"natural aspiration (boost) will always make more ultimate horsepower than NA. This works, just not for a long time under sustained use on track.

Just my two cents.
 

2008 V6

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+1 for the vote to always stay NA for track cars. :thumb2:

We do a lot of track events, and I've been going to these for 25+ years. The number one type of problem I see at these events is engine failures from boosted cars. It is a combination of heat soak, insufficient cooling capacity, and that dreaded "just a little more boost" bug that bites people when they get greedy. Most of my friends in college and many after were "boost junkies" and would come do track events ... but most of them had serious engine trouble.

Nothing wrong with boost. For low end torque, a screw or roots style is hard to beat. Its mass is also centrally located - HIGH - but central. Don’t have to spin to 7000+ RPM if your torque starts low. Remember HP is the math equation of torque. Torque gets you out of the corner - Besides most sanctioning bodies run by HP per weight Ratio - only until recently have they begun to factor torque into that equation. The problem is, as you stated Terry, GREED. Most people always want more. More boost = MORE HEAT & HP which requires more cooling - water as well as oil.
Running the proper compressor size for the application is critical for efficiency.
For boosted applications, more is not always good.
Massive heat exchanges with their own fresh air supply are mandatory. Air to air or water to air. Most people place the heat exchanger in front of the radiator. BIG NO-no.
What I was going to do and am stile considering is to run 2 separate water to water heat exchangers. One double pass in front with its own fresh air supply & a second single pass in the spare tire well - behind my soon to be made fuel surge tank. Aluminum under body square or rectangle tubing passenger side routing for weight where needed & cooling. You would be surprised on how much heat is dissipated though the corners of tubing when air blows over it. Realize, I’m trying to keep my car as a DD also - so the space above the spare tire well is necessary. This will also add about 25 - 30 lbs of weight to an already heavy car.
For now, if my driver gets her SHT together most things are on hold. If the tide turns -
First, I will control heat with water injection. ((1) non changing constant) If I need more boost, I’ll make heat exchangers as stated above - easy just a time factor.
A - 5.0 Modular NA would be easier and about the same overall money but, for my application, would bump my car into a different category - TOO fast at this time for my drivers development. I can adjust HP & most importantly torque with boost. I stile might get bumped out of where I want to be.
The rules for several sanctioning bodies are changing rapidly because of selective interpretation by participants so creative thinking will be cut to a minimal in the near future.
I'm out - too much time invested durring work to give opinions.
 

pcdrj

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Meziere doesn't make a 30gpm pump. They do make a 35gpm unit though. But the 35gpm unit takes up as much space and costs nearly the same as the 55gpm pumps do. May as well get one of those, they work great!


We spent some time at L&M going over high flow coolant pumps. On a road course you quickly reach the maximum cooling capacity of the entire system. Increasing flow means coolant is also spending less time in the heat exchange system as well. At that point increasing flow will not really help. The two options are increasing cooling efficiency and decreasing heat production. Eliminating boost is an easy way to do the later.

Disclaimer - I'm not a thermal engineer but this is how it was explained to me.
 

19COBRA93

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Coolant flow through an air/water system is tough to manage because you want extreme flow through the intercooler to obsorb as much heat as possible, but you want to slow the flow down through the heat exchanger to allow as much heat removal as possible. And you want as much airflow through the heat exchanger as you can get to aid in removing that heat.
 

05yellowgt

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Feel free to kick this non RRer out of the conversation, but if the OP is convinced that he wants to go with a FI setup, I would think that an getting the most efficient A/A intercooler setup is going to be the best setup for a RR car. an A/W system is great for a drag car because you can cool the coolant in between rounds, use ice, ect. In a RR setup you are out there for much longer and the coolant is going to reach its maximum capacity to absorb the heat and the heat exchanger then becomes the major limiting factor. I would think than a large and efficient A/A cooler would be able to maintain a lower overall AIT during a session. The major limit there of course is the ambient temperature during the event.

A D1SC with an upgraded intercooler shouldn't be that bad on heat, provided you have decent airflow through your engine bay. Sitting still the AIT's would go up really fast on a hot day, but as soon as you get moving they would go back down to ambient cruising at even 35mph on my car. That was with a functioning cowl hood. I can imagine a cowl not being the ideal setup for a car you need to see out of though!

I've seen others reroute the intake on a Procharger to pull air from the bottom of the engine bay, that might be an option. I'm not a big fan of the way that Vortech does their routing because of the big pinch in the intake track. Either way I would vote for a Centri with the best, most efficient A/A intercooler you can fit on the car.
 

19COBRA93

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The IAT's with my Procharger were completely out of control. I'd pick an overspun eaton over that any day. Okay maybe not, but they were crazy high. Especially compared with my twin turbo '03 Cobra I used to have. IAT's with that setup weren't an issue ever. Engine bay heat...That's another story.
 

sheizasosay

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Increasing flow means coolant is also spending less time in the heat exchange system as well. At that point increasing flow will not really help.

Doesn't pressurized liquid carry more heat than unpressurized liquid?
 

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