Vorshlag 2011 Mustang 5.0 GT - track/autocross/street Project

Status
Not open for further replies.

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
326
Location
RIP - You will be missed
Not having the rev capability of the Coyote motor and not being restricted by ST rules, I'd like to see a 275/40-18 for use on something like 18 x 10 F14 Forgestars . . .


Norm
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
116
Location
Dallas, TX
Terry, thanks for the in depth write up. Is it cool if I link to it on the pro touring sites?

By the way, it is DSE, Detroit Speed and Engineering. I can see how you got DSI out of it though. Good people and fast cars, if you are ever in NASCAR country check out their shop.......1st class all the way. Here is Stacy Tuckers American Iron car http://detroitspeed.com/projects/FR500S/FR500S-Mustang-pg1.html

By all means, share away: http://www.vorshlag.com/blog/?p=583 :beer:

As for more sizes from BFG in the Rival... this was just the initial launch sizes. They are concentrating on two main series: SCCA Street Touring classes and Optima Challenge/OLOA/ASCS track/autocross muscle car crowd. So that's why you see the smallish 15" sizes all the way to 335mm 18" sizes. They skipped 19" because, well, nobody uses 19" wheels for performance use. Yes, some factory fitments are that size, but these are only for style reasons.

Then they went and made some 20" sizes for the hard parkers. I dunno why, but they had some reasoning for that.

IMG_4160-S.jpg
DSC_6157-S.jpg


I do hope they can come out with some more Mustang-friendly sizes, like 265/40/18 (there are Yokohama AD08s and Hankook R-S3 models in that size for your STX folks) and 275/40/18 is a great street size for 18x10" use... that's the size I run in Bridgestone RE-11 as the daily driver tires on my 2011 GT, and we have even autocrossed and tracked on this set (the new Bridgestone RE-11A comes out in March and will likely have this size, and a little birdie told me it is 200 UTQG now, up from 180). The 295/35/18 Rival is a great size for an 18x10" on an S197, however (that's the size we daily on the 2013 GT), if a tick short for perfect speedometer accuracy. I guess we will have to wait and see what other sizes they come out with in the coming months, but I suspect this is not all of the sizes we will see in the Rival.


Click the chart above to see all of the "launch" sizes

It looks like the 315/30/18 is a bit delayed (June?!) and that's the one I need for the front, with the 335mm likely going on the back, for Optima event use on my 18x11F/18x12R Forgestars.

_DSF8354-M.jpg


Quick project update:
A brand new Torsen T-2R just arrived and is going in the red 2011 GT soon. We're getting that 4-point roll bar as well. We have a new remote ride height adjuster on the car that we're testing (very cool! allows for 5 second corner balance changes), and my winnings from the NASA event will be here any day (new set of Hoosier A6 in 315/30/18). March 16-17th is our next NASA TT event, this time at the MSR-Cresson track here in town. Should be fun.

Stay tuned for a couple of thread updates before that event... :popcorneat:
 

19COBRA93

Ford Racing
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Posts
7,577
Reaction score
22
Location
Clinton, Ut
I'm not sure of their reasoning for 20" sizes, but I'm absolutely thankful. I will be ordering the 285/35/20's for the front, and the 315/35/20's for the rear as soon as they're available. I've been in the market for a 20" performance tire for a while and these will be perfect. Unfortunately I will have to wait a few months, but not a big deal I guess.
 

51ngh

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Posts
179
Reaction score
0
We have a new remote ride height adjuster on the car that we're testing (very cool! allows for 5 second corner balance changes)

More info on the remote ride height adjuster please.
 

zquez

Death Dealer
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Posts
997
Reaction score
2
Location
the sky
Great.... Something else to add to my list. scales first. No way im paying Porsche 800 to balance my ASTs

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Posts
454
Reaction score
0
Location
Beach Park, IL
Not allowed to discuss more than I already have... but when we have completed the street/track testing, I will spill it all. :naughty1:


Is this from AST? There are some circle burner products out there now. The newest Lambo uses a similar system for speed bump clearance at the flick of a switch, hydraulics on a Lambo, who'd a thunk it?
 

Whiskey11

SCCA Autoscrosser #23 STU
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Posts
1,644
Reaction score
4
5th Generation Camaros for two of those sizes.
the 1LE runs 285/35-20 all around, and the ZL1 runs that size up front and 305/35-20 rear.


Norm

This... although they REALLY shot themselves in the foot with the lack of a 265 in 18" wheel diameters in the preliminary runs... Then again, all of the cars that are competitive in STX all run 17"s. Still no 265 in that size either. Who was their test market for the first run of tires? Seriously, three sizes to cover the 3 largest ST classes, 265, 255 and 285 in 17" and 18". Seems strange that the only 265 is in 20" wheel diameter...
 

Jefro

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Posts
282
Reaction score
0
Location
OKC, OK
I think I've decided on the Rival 275-35R18 on 18x10 rims for my track set up. I can't wait to go play!!
 

claudermilk

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Posts
1,840
Reaction score
1
Location
SoCal
They skipped 19" because, well, nobody uses 19" wheels for performance use. Yes, some factory fitments are that size, but these are only for style reasons.

Translation: Get yourself some proper 18" race wheels, fool! ;) It's on my radar, but while I'm still playing in stock class I'm stuck with 19x9. I am better off going with the purple crack there anyway, so I guess in the end it's a moot point for me.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
116
Location
Dallas, TX
This... although they REALLY shot themselves in the foot with the lack of a 265 in 18" wheel diameters in the preliminary runs... Then again, all of the cars that are competitive in STX all run 17"s. Still no 265 in that size either. Who was their test market for the first run of tires? Seriously, three sizes to cover the 3 largest ST classes, 265, 255 and 285 in 17" and 18". Seems strange that the only 265 is in 20" wheel diameter...

Well.... sure, on paper they needed those three sizes. But in practice very few cars can even fit the max width STX and STU tires. Sure, there are lots of STX and STR cars that can fit 255mm tires, but VERY few in STX that can actually fit the class maximum RWD 265mm tires. Some of the E36 guys try to do it but they rub like crazy. An E46 can fit 265s but there are very few of those left in STX...

DSC_7972-S.png
DSC_6113-S.jpg

Left: E46 330 with 265mm - that took a LOT of effort to fit. Right: STX E36 with 255s rubs, and on 265s rubs LIKE MAD

And only a handful of RWD cars even run in STU anymore, and few of those can fit a 285mm tire properly. The only one even remotely capable of trophying in STU that can fit a 285mm tire is an E46 M3, but most of those guys threw in the towel for this class 2+ years ago. STU is all about 245mm AWD boost buggies. :(

DSC_4957-S.jpg
DSC_4552-S.jpg

Left: Few if any E46 M3s exist in STU at the National level. Right: STU is almost 100% AWD cars on 245s

So while there are theoretical cars and potential max limit tires missing, at the National level they pretty much covered the competitive cars in all ST classes in their limited "launch" sizes, as unlikely as it sounds.

Sorry. I know nobody likes to hear their car isn't considered competitive and maybe not covered by a new tire brand they like. But luckily there ARE many other 265mm tires in the 140-200 UTQG range that will fit your S197. Check out Bridgestone RE-11 and RE-11A (March), Kumho XS, Hankook R-S3, Yokohama AD08 and Toyo R1R (but skip the Toyo). All of these brands have at least one 18" 265mm tire offering, and some have two. Still plenty of competitive choices...

Cheers,
 

Whiskey11

SCCA Autoscrosser #23 STU
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Posts
1,644
Reaction score
4
I'm pretty sure the RX8 can fit 265's under the fenders. I saw plenty of them at Nationals and Spring Nationals with 265 RS3's under the fenders. We also have a local 2000 Integra Type R that has 265 RE11's under the fenders as well who runs in STX. These are the other top two cars in STX ATM. I'm also sure the 265's will fit under the fenders of the new FRS/BRZ no? You would have more experience there than I do but I'm sure it will. That's another new STX car which will most likely do very well at (Spring)Nationals this year in STX trim.

I don't know. At this point I'm spit balling. None of the current tire wars effect me in the slightest for this next year. Another year on the ice skate sized 245/45/18 Star Specs. Hopefully by next year these tire wars will have played out just in time for me to replace my wheels AND tires.
 

Roadracer350

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Posts
1,215
Reaction score
0
Location
Tulsa OK
Not allowed to discuss more than I already have... but when we have completed the street/track testing, I will spill it all. :naughty1:


:omfg: They actually had this in MotoGP for a while but they banned it because they felt it was a unfair advantage. Now you can still get rear shocks with remote Hydraulic Preload adjusters that are legal but you cant use the trackside computer to adjust your suspension anymore. It was cool as hell tho!!!
 
Last edited:

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
116
Location
Dallas, TX
Project Update for February 21, 2013: I've been dreading this update for more than two months, but I have to write it one last time here and then we can move on. I'm only putting this in the thread to explain why we are leaving SCCA competition for 2013, since that has been a part of this build since 2010 (and has been a part of my life since 1987). Once this is posted I am not going to "re-argue" this whole mess again - since I have already done that in other threads/forums. Please don't crap up the thread with more questions about why we are leaving the SCCA, or suggestions how we can get around the new, borked rule re-write that has now banned 80% of the Watts Links on the market for SCCA use. You can send me PMs or emails, but I won't likely get into it further. We've already been over this dozens of times with other folks inside and outside of the SCCA, and have wasted enough time trying to find a work-around. It doesn't exist - there is simply no way for us to race any of our S197s in SCCA Solo for 2013. Their ruling is final and nothing is going to change the SCCA's ways, other than continued membership attrition.

That first half of my thread update is pretty negative, but there's no way to dress it up nicely. Luckily the second half of this thread update is a bit more positive - we cover the current and future status of our 2013 Mustang GT, touch on a new letter we have written to the SEB about moving the S197 to STU class for Street Touring use, introduce some potentially big news for Mustangs and hopefully Vorshlag for 2014, and briefly discuss the next few mods we have in store for our 2011 GT in the coming weeks.

Let's get this first half over with. If you already know this story, feel free to skip to the second half. :)


SCCA SPAC/SEB Bans Alternate Differential Covers (and most Watts Link Kits) in Solo

As many of you reading this know, Vorshlag was one of Whiteline's first testers for their S197 Watts Link kit. We talked about their products in this build thread, installed and tested their Watts Link in August 2012, and then used it at the 2012 Solo Nationals and all competition events and street driving since. We have had excellent results with this kit and have been selling many of them since it went into production. Rock solid unit. One of the only units on the market that doesn't have metal rod ends, which gives this the Whiteline Watts kit a silent, street friendly function - but it still works extremely well in autocross and track competition with big 315mm R compounds and aero.

So after the 2012 Solo Nationals, someone with some pull in the SCCA piped up online and said "that Watts Link is illegal because it changes the differential cover!". Ludicrous, I said. The mounting is unrestricted and the most common mounting for any Watts Link propeller is to the differential cover. This is the way most factory units are installed and the vast majority of aftermarket units as well. It is the most logical way to mount the point on the axle that attaches to the lateral links and chassis for the Watts Link.

dsc_0270-L.jpg

We didn't hear a single ESP competitor complain about any potential Watts Link illegalities at the 2012 Solo Nationals.

To clear this up before we spent upwards of $50K building our 2013 GT for ESP class and getting a silly protest at a National event in 2013, we asked the Solo Events Board (SEB) for a clarification. Big, big mistake. You see I felt like this was just a formality, because this style of Watts Link mounting is by far the most prevalent and has been in use for decades in SCCA Street Prepared. Logic would prevail, the clarification would be simple, and the obvious answer would remove any doubt about the legality of the Whiteline Watts link and the other seven brands for the S197 (Cortex, Griggs, etc) that also relied on an alternate differential cover for their kits. These units had many years of precedent in ESP class without issue.

But this is the SCCA, and logic often has nothing to do with their decisions.

This is the same group that argued about removing 0.5 ounce badges from cars, for two years. So I should probably not have been surprised when a 8+ week discussion took place within the Street Prepared Advisory Committee (SPAC) and then the SEB. And they finally ruled, "you know, we don't think the original rule writers meant that..." and they changed the rule, banned our preferred Watts Link kits (plus many other brands), and our next S197 ESP project was doomed.

To get a clear sense of the history of this rule and how this re-write went down, let's look at the original Street Prepared "solid axle" extra rule set that we felt clearly showed this and many other a Watts Link kits were legal:

2013 SCCA Solo Rules said:
15.I Solid axle suspension allowances:
1. Addition or replacement of suspension stabilizers (linkage connecting
the axle housing or De Dion to the chassis, which controls
lateral suspension location) is permitted.
2. Traction bars or torque arms may be added or replaced.
3. A panhard rod may be added or replaced.
4. The upper arm(s) may be removed, replaced, or modified and the
upper pickup points on the rear axle housing may be relocated.
5. The lower arms may not be altered, except as permitted under
Section 15.8.C, or relocated.
Methods of attachment and attachment points are unrestricted, but
may serve no other purpose (e.g., chassis stiffening). This does not
authorize removal of a welded-on part of a subframe or bodywork to
accommodate the installation.

That bit there about unrestricted mounting for lateral locating devices, to me and many others we have spoken with, meant unrestricted. You can weld, fabricate, unbolt and do pretty much anything necessary to make the Watts Link fit a solid axle car. UNRESTRICTED is a pretty damned forgiving term, and that wording has been in place for many years. Since the rule, as written, called out that you couldn't remove welded on part of the subframe or bodywork, then a bolt-on differential cover seemed like fair game. Remember - we had unrestricted mounting boundaries. And we had spoken with several competitors in ESP class at Nationals that themselves had alternate diff covers, simply because this rule so clearly allowed it. This has been the working interpretation by competitors for this class for ages. It wasn't like we were trying to sneak a Corvette in under this solid axle allowance, just use the most common sense, most prevalent mounting method for aftermarket Watts Link kits. Nobody actually running in ESP class has ever said a thing to me about our Watts Link mounting. It has, as far as we can find, NEVER been an issue of protest in this class at any level. And of course, it offers no competitive advantage over other methods of attachment.

Until a certain someone, who sells a competing Watts Link brand and therefore has a business reason to block the Whiteline unit, made a public prolongation that "that brand isn't legal!". And this someone is on an SCCA Solo rules advisory committee.

So here was the long awaited, much debated re-write of the rule (linked here.)

SCCA FasTrack said:
#9767 Watts Link Clarification
There is no allowance to replace the differential cover. Modifications to the original differential cover are permitted, but replacing the entire differential cover would be outside the scope of the current allowance, which is intended to permit any method of attachment, not wholesale replacement of parts to which the attachment is made.

Wow, that is some tortured logic. They just redefined what unrestricted means. Somebody call Merriam Webster and tell them their definition is all wrong.

But then, immediately after making this ruling, the SEB/SPAC proposed a "fix", an all new rule proposal to allow these alternate differential covers and then make these common Watts Link mounting styles legal once again. This was printed in the very same FasTrack publication:

Feb 2013 FasTrack said:
#9961 Differential Allowance
The SPAC and SEB would like member feedback as regards allowing alternate differential covers, either (1) for all cars via adding a new 15.10.CC: “Differential covers and attaching hardware may be replaced.” or (2) only for solid axle cars via adding a new 15.8.I.6: “Differential covers and attaching hardware may be replaced.”

That's great, and I agree heartily with this change... but due to the obtuse and excruciatingly slow way the SCCA works most times, this new rule will take A MINIMUM OF ONE YEAR to undo the damage their clarification has done. That is what I have a big problem with: they chose to do this the SLOW way. These committees could have fixed this in one single technical bulletin clarification, with no year long sentence of "illegality" for eight brands of Watts Links.

_DSC0981-S.jpg
DSC_1989%20copy-S.jpg

Left: The now-illegal differential cover. Right: The complete Whiteline S197 Watts Link kit.

There were many reasons to be disappointed by the SEB ruling on the Watts Link allowances. Some are selfish - as Vorshlag recommends and sells the Whiteline Watts Link that is directly affected by this ruling (which should be once again legal by 2014). Others are a general disappointment that our friends in the SCCA rules making hierarchy can re-interpret the rules the way they did. It makes us feel that either logic has failed, or there are other, commercial considerations that have swayed their decision. This move just makes no sense. This is a problem they created 100% in committee, by using tortured logic and nit-picky interpretations of previously "unrestricted" boundaries.

jpf_DSC9316%20copy-2%20copy-M.jpg


After this ruling was made, an argument was put forth by SEB members on public forums that the alternate cover was banned because it provided "unintended advantages", such as longer bearing life, additional oil capacity or increased differential cooling ability. We argued then that this simply wasn't the case.

track-pack-diff-cover-S.jpg
2013-ford-shelby-gt500-08-1-md-S.jpg


What they ignored, of course, is that for the S197 chassis in question, there are multiple factory equipped differential covers that we can legally use from update/backdate allowances, including the cast aluminum covers shown above, and even one with a factory equipped differential cooling system. Which would, logically, allow for even cooler rear differential fluid than the Whiteline cover theoretically/supposedly could. Not that any of this amounts to any performance advantage when driving around in a parking lot for 60 seconds, though.

An internal argument was supposedly made during the early stages of the lengthy SPAC/SEB deliberations on this issue that allowing differential cover swaps would provide "unintended consequences" to other IRS cars in Street Prepared. It appears the committees were debating the issue before even familiarizing themselves with the rules, and apparently whoever made this argument was not aware that stick-axle cars in Street Prepared had a set of additional allowances over the IRS cars with regard to the rear suspension and lateral locating devices.

And just for a similar example, when similar clarifications in the past were brought up for the Miata chassis, they ruled to allow the broadest possible reading of the given allowances. Specifically the reading of the Stock Class swaybar allowance, which uses wording that is not as open as the SP wording, allowing competitors with Miatas to cut off welded chassis brackets in order to install alternate swaybars. In a Stock class. But we cannot unbolt a part in SP? That seems backwards.

In the case of the SP solid axle lateral locating devices, the SEB used the tightest possible reading of the rule to disallow multiple brands of Watts Link kits that require alternate differential covers, but in the same instance used the widest possible reading of the rule to allow the alternate style that uses a giant girder bolted across the rear frame member - which is a violation of a Street Prepared wording that forbids "chassis stiffening" from these lateral locating parts. They over-analyzed this rule, glossed over the actual specifics, ignored the common aftermarket solutions, inflated the "What ifs?" to ludicrous proportions, and kicked out the most logical methods of attachment for Watts Link kits.

This is particularly galling because even a casual read of the section of the rulebook that gives additional allowances to stick-axle cars in Street Prepared leads the reader to believe that the original rules makers who came up with them (a completely different set of volunteers than those serving now) thought the stick-axle cars were at such huge deficit compared to other suspension types in Street Prepared that they gave these cars many extra allowances for rear suspension correction devices, and wrote them as to be unrestrained by minute restrictions.

34_MG_5182-S.jpg
DSC_2027-S.jpg


Someone from the SEB even suggested on a forum after the ruling came out that there was an "easy fix" we could do and make this system legal. If we would just fabricate a huge plate steel structure to bolt on around the factory differential cover, to take the place of the compact cast diff cover that Whiteline spent a good deal of engineering time and money producing, then the rest of the Whiteline Watts Link kit could be used. Never mind the fact that bolting on a giant plate steel welded structure would likely end up inside the trunk, as the space between the rear axle and the spare tire well was very tight. There are also many hundreds of pounds of suspension loads passing through this diff cover, and it is beefed up to handle those loads. Could a bolt-on ding-dong work as well, without having to gain a lot of weight or space? No. There were even spit-balled CAD prints posted and everything. Was an enormous contraption that Rube Goldberg himself would be proud of. I dubbed this monstrosity the "SCCA Clusterf**k Cover 9000", which made even the SEB member who posted it laugh.

In the end, we would have to chuck the entire Whiteline kit and start from scratch, burn dozens of hours fabricating, machining, measuring, and testing an all new system - or buy one of the two competing brands that was now the only legal option. This isn't uncommon - the SCCA often completely ignores common, bolt-on, aftermarket solutions available for most cars and just expects autocrossers to have to make custom-fabricated-anything to work around the tortured rulings (and clarifications) that they come up with. This is a fundamental problem with the rule making process within this club - they are either ignorant of or willfully ignore "what is out there" for their members to buy and use for autocrossing.

The SCCA Solo's often stated motto of "Make it Easy, Make it Fun" was trashed by reading this rule in the tightest possible way, then turning around in the same breath and suggesting the rule was too restrictive and then offered up additional allowances should be written into the rulebook to correct this issue for next year. But this could have all been fixed in one fell swoop - the SEB has shown in the past that it has the ability and the will to correct minor issues like this by issuing a "Technical Bulletin" when the rules have some leeway, like the rules did here. This allows the SEB to either tighten up the allowances, or relax the restrictions because the rules don't say exactly what they thought they should say. But they failed to do this, threw out eight brands of off the shelf Watts Link options for the 2013 race season, and lost at least two competitors and a regular SCCA sponsor in the process (and a new manufacturer).

If reading this text above makes me seem bitter and angry, then it isn't half as angry and let down as I feel. But it goes back for decades - it is just one more botched SCCA ruling among hundreds of such mishaps over the past 25 years that I have witnessed. Jason M here at Vorshlag is just as disappointed about this, and has also been let down as often as me over the same time period of his racing in SCCA Solo. This "banned year" for a product and company we had worked hard with in 2012 was just the last straw, for us. We are done for 2013.

(continued below)
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
116
Location
Dallas, TX
(continued from above)

Vorshlag Leaving SCCA Solo for 2013

More bad news, but then it gets better below, I promise. Since we've got no place to race our S197 Mustangs in SCCA Solo for 2013, we're going to run our 2011 GT elsewhere and scuttle the 2013 GT project entirely. Yep, as in "sell the 2013". I will post a link to the ad for it in this thread soon (with the 18x10" wheels/tires, AST 4200RRs, and 2500 miles). While this seems drastic - "Why not just sit and wait for a year?" some have asked - we don't have time to wait for the painfully slow process, the glacial-like pace that SCCA rules changes always seem to take. It took them eight years to limit class jumping in ST, so of course it takes one year to properly clarify a single word within an existing rule. A solid year long wait to use the parts we have already used in Solo, openly and without protest, and that we feel have always been legal.

But as a manufacturer of suspension products, we have many other chassis that we need to work with, and "waiting a year" to work on an outgoing chassis that has seen many years in production already (2005-2014), that is about to be replaced with a new version, just doesn't make business sense for us.

_DSF8650-S.jpg
_DSF8645-S.jpg

SCCA class decals coming off 2013 Mustang GT - which we bought solely to prepare and race in ESP class.

Leaving the SCCA for 2013 sucks and we're NOT happy about it, but it is a decision we've been discussing since this rule re-write was dumped on us from these committees. Now that the only "legal" Watts Link options we have are to use only a Fays2 or Steeda Watts Link, neither of which I sell (or care to), I opted for Option 2 - leave the class, and leave the sport. By the time this mess is undone, we will have an all new chassis to play with in mid-2014 (see my last section in this post).

_DSC0581-S.jpg
_DSC0602-S.jpg


Remember, I'm losing a lot in this ruling and decision to leave the sport for 2013: in late 2012 I bought a brand new car just to build for SCCA ESP class. Onto this new 2013 GT we have already dumped many thousands of dollars in parts and labor. We have installed high end monotube double adjustable coilovers with remotes (AST 4200RR), an adjustable front sway bar, our camber plates, built custom remote reservoir brackets, cut the trunk for reservoir routing, yanked the rear seats (in preparation for 2012 Leguna Seca seat delete), and already started testing. There was still a LOT of work left to do: we were about to cut and flare the fenders to fit the monstrously large wheels and tires we were going to run (335F/345R), yank the radio and A/C, swap in a Boss302 motor, build the custom exhaust, test several intake manifolds and throttle bodies, and make this into a real, dedicated, no-holds-barred ESP autocross Mustang. But now... there's just no point to all of this extensive, expensive work we have left - especially considering what is coming in mid-2014.

To some folks, our "I'm going elsewhere" statement sounds petty or petulant, but in the end it is just business. We've been running SCCA Solo for more than 25 years, but for the past 7+ years it was no longer "just for fun" or just for "competition reasons", but to test and showcase parts we make and/or sell. Since I can no longer race in a class where the rules makers choose to completely ignore the common aftermarket solutions and have decided to ban some brands of parts that had previously been legal for decades, but allow others which have no real functional differences, we need to step away.

_DSC0251%20copy%203-S.jpg
DSC_2022-S.jpg

Other Sports Beckon!

We have too many other motorsports series out there for us to test our cars and parts in - from NASA to Optima and GTA to Goodguys. We don't need to race in SCCA Solo to showcase or sell plenty of Whiteline Watts Links... the S197 Mustang owners just don't seem to care what the SCCA autocross rule makers say or do. Because, well, SCCA Solo is such a tiny draw to the typical S197 chassis owner right now (but it could be - more on that below).

So we're out of ESP class for 2013 and I won't give any more money to the SCCA National office (no more entry fees, no more sponsorship), but we will still support SCCA racers, our local SCCA Region (Texas Region), and will even compete in a few of our regional SCCA events in 2013 - just not in either of our Mustangs (I don't even think our 2011 GT is legal for Street Modified anymore). We are hosting the Annual Tech day at Vorshlag this Saturday (Feb 23, 2013 - see the FB invite) for our SCCA region and have even agreed to once again sponsor the welcome party at the Texas ProSolo in 2013. So we're not cutting all ties to this club, its members, or the regions. We just don't agree with some decisions made at the top levels within the SCCA of late, and have decided to step away for a bit to see if or how we can return to this sport at the National level.


Click above to learn about the Texas Region SCCA Solo School, March 9th, 2013.

Amy and I will also be instructing at the March 9th "beginners autocross school" hosted by the Texas Region SCCA, like we do every year. Come out to drive and learn with experienced autocrossers in the right seat with you all day. This isn't a sport or skill set you can teach yourself, you need both seat time and first-hand instruction to get better. Entry into the Solo School gets you a free entry into the autocross on March 10th. You can read more about it and register here. We may or may not have something to race in Solo by the March 10th event, depends on some outside factors, but we will be there March 9th.


My Open Letter to the SEB: Move the S197 to STU + Tire Size Bump?

Even as displeased as I am personally with the SCCA rules makers right now, I still regularly send in letters to ask for new parts, rules and classing changes that I see that are ineffective or potentially chasing away competitors to the sport. I can't say much good ever comes of it, but I still send in my suggestions or reply when they ask for "member comment" on a suggested rules change. I've talked about our trials and tribulations in STX class with our 2011 Mustang in this very thread, if you go back to the 2010-2011 posts. We were even racing in STX class in this big boat as late as April 2012. I suspect we probably had the most serious, most tested, most documented STX entry with a 2011-2013 Mustang GT to date?

Read Our SEB Letter Here: http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8215

This 5.0L Mustang was a total mess in STX class, frankly, and I feel it was mostly down to the maximum 9" wide wheel and 265mm tire that this class requires for 2WD cars (4WD cars are limited to an 8" wheel and 245mm tire). The main problem we noted in this class was that the "maximum tire width" doesn't "scale up" in any ST* class with increasing chassis weight. I feel that the "curb weight per mm of tire width" is a key factor in handling performance, especially on street tires. And especially when you can make well over 400 whp in STX legal trim, like we did. Until January 1st 2012, we had the option to run this car in either STX or STU, and we did run in STU a bit and the car was MUCH better on wider wheels and tires. But to prevent the Civics from class jumping the lightest ST* car into "faster classes" like STX and STU (which they handily won, quite often), they locked down all eligible cars into a single ST* class.

This was one of the few things I agreed with when it comes to SEB changes lately. It was about four years too late, but it needed to happen. The unforeseen problem we noted was that this now locked the heavy, powerful Mustang into STX class but most other heavy V8 RWD cars (above 5.0L) went into STU class, which has unlimited wheel width and a 285mm max tire for 2WD cars. As we saw first hand, this car was much better suited with STU width wheels and tires (if not much more competitive in class), and that maybe it could even do better with a +10 to +30 mm bump over the max STU tire width, due to the much higher curb weight of these and similar RWD solid axle cars already classed in STU.

Anyway - read my "S197 to STU" proposal in this forum post. If you agree with it and are an SCCA member, please take a moment and write a letter to the SEB/STAC at this link and ask for these changes. My single voice doesn't carry far at all with this group, but if more people join in the conversation, we can make positive changes to the various SCCA classes and finally find a home in Street Touring for heavier, RWD cars like the S197 Mustang. Thanks.


Possible Return to SCCA for 2014?

The good news is Vorshlag plans on coming back to SCCA Solo competition in 2014, if everything gets unscrewed and they don't botch any other major rules. If so, it could be in a car that looks like this and hopefully classed in ESP...

NoWing-L.jpg


As many of you know, there is a new Mustang coming in the 2015 model year (or 2014.5). This car is being "designed for a world market" and will be lighter and might have a proper Independent Rear Suspension (IRS), maybe from the Australian Ford Falcon chassis. Engine lineup is rumored to include a turbo 4 cylinder, an ecoboost V6 and the 5.0L V8, maybe with direct injection. In order to be a better European export, it is supposed to be "200-300 pounds lighter", which will be a welcome improvement. Very soon we will start seeing more and more renderings and spy shots that look closer to the actual production cars. These could arrive as early as a "2014-1/2" model, to mark the 50th anniversary for the Mustang, so this is going to be interesting.

Read here to learn more about the 2015 Mustang: http://jalopnik.com/5949026/the-20145-ford-mustang-everything-we-know

2015mustang-rendering1-S.jpg
2015mustang-rendering2-S.jpg

More 2015 Mustang renderings - no idea how accurate these are.

This upcoming new Mustang is why Vorshlag isn't going to "sit and wait a year" for the SCCA to get their rules fixed for ESP class or the outgoing S197 model, because by this time next year we will have likely sold our 2011 Mustang GT and will have a new chassis 2015 Mustang on order. Or maybe a 2015 Camaro. Or a 2015 Baracuda. You see, all three of the Domestic Automakers have brand new Pony Cars coming in 2014-15, and all of them are rumored to be "smaller, lighter, and IRS". Something might go wrong with one or two of these new designs - delays, extra weight, poor powertrain choices - who knows? But at least one of these won't suck, and will be all new and lighter - maybe even the already best-of-the-three Mustang? We will get our hands on the "best new pony car" as quickly as we can, then start developing suspension products both in-house with Vorshlag products as well as with our manufacturing partners.


What's Next on our 2011 GT?

We aren't scuttling both of our S197 cars, as our red 2011 GT will continue to be raced and developed until the next round of Pony Cars arrives, so for at least another year. We have a gaggle of new parts here, ready to install and test before our March 16-17th NASA Time Trial event at MSR-Cresson. Whiteline sent us updated parts for the rear sway bar, the prototype transmission mount bushings showed up today, and we're working on more endlink options from them.

jpg_DSC8383%20copy-S.jpg
_DSF8354-S.jpg


We made about a dozen of the black T-shirts above, showing a Mustang on the bottom and a Vorshlag logo up top. We can make these to order, next day turn-around, in a variety of sizes. You can find these shirts for sale on our merchandise page located here. We also picked up two Torsen T-2 differentials for 31-spline Ford 8.8" axles, including a T-2R (4:1 ratio) for the 2011 Mustang, shown above. I can't wait to get that in the car before the next track event! And the winnings from the January NASA TT event arrived - one brand new set of 315/30/18 Hoosier A6 tires. Finally - my first ever track event on a fresh set of A6s! No more old tire excuses for a NASA event (the last two NASA events were run on a sets of tires with over 13 months of autocross and track abuse - excuses, I has 'em!).

_DSF8426-S.jpg
2_DSF8451-S.jpg


There are also several shifter bushings/housings we have accumulated and have now durometer tested (including the squishy soft stock rubber unit) and we will be putting one or more in the 2011 GT before the next track event. And if the Maximum 4-point roll bar arrives in time it will go in as well. There is also a new set of S197 monotubes/springs/Vorshlag plates we've been torture testing on a local guy's 2012 GT for a couple of months that will finally be going on our website to sell, along with several new monotube coilover brands that we will soon be selling.

Let's Wrap This Up

I'm sorry that I had to write such a nasty diatribe about this situation and the SCCA rules making committees, but I feel strongly that they got this clarification wrong, and it directly affects me both as a business owner and as a competitor. And it is one of hundreds in a long line of similar rulings, showing how out of touch some of the rules makers are, in my opinion. Waiting a year for the "rules fix" to trickle down isn't an option for us, as we have other chassis that we need to work with each year and by 2014-ish we will likely be in the new Mustang chassis (or Camaro or Barracuda). Stepping away from SCCA Solo for a year will probably do me a lot of good - by 2014 I will have forgotten how screwed up most of it is. ;)

But it wasn't all venom and poison in this post, as we've put forth a good faith proposal to ask that the S197 be moved from STX to STU, after our two years of dismal results showed it was badly outclassed on the skinny STX tire and wheel widths. We even asked for a bit of extra tire for the big Pony Cars in that class, too. And we are still working with our SCCA region in many ways, including sponsoring the welcome dinner at a ProSolo in our backyard. And while we are selling our 2013 GT and killing the planned ESP project it was purchased for, we still have some tricks in store for our 2011 GT and at least another full year of racing it in NASA TT and with other groups.

Thanks for reading,
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Posts
454
Reaction score
0
Location
Beach Park, IL
Terry, what's it take to make that 18x11" wheel work in the front? Bunch of camber and the right offset? Would it work at -2.5 camber or does it need more to clear the outside fender?

It looks like the 295/35 BFG will be a better match to your existing hoosier 315/30....unless you have some room to spare yet.



*edit* Had time to read read your letter to the seb. Thanks! Do you think this allowance could possibly happen......really? It seems feasible that more tire could equalize the competition in STU and it sure would be a lot more fun to run with more tire. Go to the wheel and tire section of this forum, most people go to 275s as a standard upgrade which immediately puts them out of any ST class.
 
Last edited:

DTL

Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Posts
295
Reaction score
0
Location
SoCal
Bummer that you guys have to abandon the plan for the 2013, but I can completely see why. Looking forward to more products and updates from the red car!

Are you guys running coil over springs or big springs on the rear of the red car? I've got the threaded-body Penskes here for my '13, but I'm afraid that, even with 2.25" ID springs, it's going to take up a TON of wheel well room.
 

Whiskey11

SCCA Autoscrosser #23 STU
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Posts
1,644
Reaction score
4
Bummer that you guys have to abandon the plan for the 2013, but I can completely see why. Looking forward to more products and updates from the red car!

Are you guys running coil over springs or big springs on the rear of the red car? I've got the threaded-body Penskes here for my '13, but I'm afraid that, even with 2.25" ID springs, it's going to take up a TON of wheel well room.

They are using adjustable spring perches with probably 2.5" springs. I'm not sure of the rates, probably 600F/225R was the last I heard. The rear springs are NOT spring over shock though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Back
Top