New Motor - Piston Ring Break-In/Seating???

[HellsBells]

you could pull a plug and have it wet from the fuel the injector just sprayed that wasnt ignited due to shutting down the car.

those plugs look like shit. lol.

Fuel is atomized into the chamber, not thrown in with a bucket -- Even if this were possible, it would have vaporized by the time he took the coil pack off.

Also, the wetness is brown lol

 

[AutoXRacer]

you could pull a plug and have it wet from the fuel the injector just sprayed that wasnt ignited due to shutting down the car.

those plugs look like shit. lol.

Due to the Torco...red crusty stuff?
Or just in general...?

I am hoping running them will eventually clean them off.

Weird thing is that I was talking to a buddy of mine who was at the track day, and he says on the straight away, where I hit 140MPH he saw no smoke what so ever. None.
The straight away was a low (3K) 3rd to low (3K) 5th gear row...

So if I did have a leaky valve stem seal or leaky rings, wouldn't I have smoke coming out of the tail pipes? Wouldn't there be oil residue in my pipes?

I guess no other choice but to run a compression and leak down.

How do you perform a compression and leak down test at temperature when there is so much crap to remove from the motor to access the spark plugs?

 

[Tron]

didnt know you were running torco, ive only seen pics of it leaving a red dust on plugs.

 

[AutoXRacer]

didnt know you were running torco, ive only seen pics of it leaving a red dust on plugs.

Yeah, I ran it twice, one tank on 7/13 for a drag racing event.
And then two tanks worth at the track event on 7/18.
Parked the car and pulled plugs on 7/22.

 

[HellsBells]

Due to the Torco...red crusty stuff?
Or just in general...?

I am hoping running them will eventually clean them off.

Weird thing is that I was talking to a buddy of mine who was at the track day, and he says on the straight away, where I hit 140MPH he saw no smoke what so ever. None.
The straight away was a low (3K) 3rd to low (3K) 5th gear row...

So if I did have a leaky valve stem seal or leaky rings, wouldn't I have smoke coming out of the tail pipes? Wouldn't there be oil residue in my pipes?

I guess no other choice but to run a compression and leak down.

How do you perform a compression and leak down test at temperature when there is so much crap to remove from the motor to access the spark plugs?

Just drive the car up to operating temp or let it idle. Once it's hot, it'll stay pretty hot. Just pull the coil packs, disconnect fuel injectors. Pull one plug, thread in gauge. Crank. Write down Reading. Take gauge off, put plug back in. Rinse and repeat for all cylinders.

 

[Back@itagain]

Torco uses MMT to to increase its octane. It leaves a rusty red residue on everything in the combustion chamber and even out the exhaust. That is the majority of what you are seeing. Yes fuel atomizes but it is far from perfect. If it was we wouldnt need catalytic converters and it definitely doesnt magically disappear if it is not ignited. Ever conduct a flow test on your injectors? Fuel shots out in more of a stream then any sort of fine mist. Thus the desire to introduce a level of turbulence in the intake charge. If all the valves are closed with fuel in the combustion chamber and no spark hits it then it really has no where to go (at least not very fast).

As I have said to the OP before, if you think you have bad cylinder heads, pull the intake manifold. Oil will be burned and crusted on the back sides of the valves. I have plenty pictures for reference if you need!

Based on what the OP has shown/said and my experience with my motor, I think he just has a lot of blowby entering the crankcase and re-entering the intake tract. Small air/oil separators are rather ineffective especially in boosted applications. Another option is to just pull the blower. I'd bet te intake manifold is full of oil. I've got pictures of that also. I run open breathers now and still have to add oil every so often. Is it ideal...no, but it works for me for now.

 

[BruceH]

Torco uses MMT to to increase its octane. It leaves a rusty red residue on everything in the combustion chamber and even out the exhaust. That is the majority of what you are seeing. Yes fuel atomizes but it is far from perfect. If it was we wouldnt need catalytic converters and it definitely doesnt magically disappear if it is not ignited. Ever conduct a flow test on your injectors? Fuel shots out in more of a stream then any sort of fine mist. Thus the desire to introduce a level of turbulence in the intake charge. If all the valves are closed with fuel in the combustion chamber and no spark hits it then it really has no where to go (at least not very fast).

As I have said to the OP before, if you think you have bad cylinder heads, pull the intake manifold. Oil will be burned and crusted on the back sides of the valves. I have plenty pictures for reference if you need!

Based on what the OP has shown/said and my experience with my motor, I think he just has a lot of blowby entering the crankcase and re-entering the intake tract. Small air/oil separators are rather ineffective especially in boosted applications. Another option is to just pull the blower. I'd bet te intake manifold is full of oil. I've got pictures of that also. I run open breathers now and still have to add oil every so often. Is it ideal...no, but it works for me for now.

Just to add to this a little. Fuel should start spraying on a closed valve so there is a puddle ready to absorb heat when the valve opens. With that said I've never pulled wet plugs before.

Gerald, there is a good machine shop in Everett with a Rottler diamond hone. You could always tear the motor down for a hone and new rings if that turns out to be the problem. The cost wouldn't be too much. Probably under $500 with all the parts needed to reassemble the motor.

It sounds like you are pretty convinced that there is a lot of blow by coming from the piston walls. It could be leaking in through the valve guides too. I'm wondering if a borescope would reveal anything? Are you going to replace the plugs?

 

[HellsBells]

TYes fuel atomizes but it is far from perfect. If it was we wouldnt need catalytic converters and it definitely doesnt magically disappear if it is not ignited. Ever conduct a flow test on your injectors? Fuel shots out in more of a stream then any sort of fine mist. Thus the desire to introduce a level of turbulence in the intake charge. If all the valves are closed with fuel in the combustion chamber and no spark hits it then it really has no where to go (at least not very fast).

I have never ever ever pulled a wet plug that was wet from fuel. If what you're saying is true, then fuel is sprayed in (yes, as a stream, I didn't mean to imply it was a fine mist) -- then, it has nowhere to go....so it magically decides to go on the sparkplug and just one one side?

Not sure if serious....

 

[BruceH]

There could be a few simple and separate issues going on here. The plugs could be shot and the pcv might be stuck. It's worth looking into.

Gerald, I have a set of NGK Iridium cold plugs that I just pulled out yesterday. You are welcome to use them for testing if you want. I'd really like to look at your pcv setup too. Do you work dayshift? I'm home right now and have the evening free.

 

[Back@itagain]

A bore scope is a pretty good suggestion. I've used them in the past. If you have to go buy one, remember you are limited to the size of the lense to the plug hole diameter. I'm pretty sure they have some very high resolution scopes available now a days but be ready to spend a nice bit of coin. Your piston crowns will look absolutely horrible if excessive amounts of oil are entering the combustion chamber but may also be difficult to see due to limited light and any possible color confusion if you have a coated piston crown...definitely worth a shot though.

 

[one eyed willy]

FYI...I run a oil ring gap half of what you do.... .015 is what I run on stainless rings.

 

[05moneypit]

What plugs are those? They look to cold, shouldn't be black on the bottom. The Torco makes reading them difficult. #3 and #1 are without a doubt a problem but you can't tell for sure from just the plugs if it is rings or valve seals.....hell it could be like others have said and may just be sucking oil into the intake but I would expect to see both banks of plugs looking like that.

Compression test would help point you in the right direction without pulling the intake to check for oil in the intake or from the valve seals.

Proper way to do a compression test is to pull all the plugs. Unplug the injectors or pull the fuel pump fuse. Hold the throttle wide open and crank the engine and get 3 hits on the compression stroke, you can do more than three hits but just do all eight cylinders the same. If all eight are with 10-15% then pull the SC and look for oil.

I will be happy to send you my leak down gauge but I think you will be able to find the issue without it.

Here is a link on doing a leak down http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html

Also some videos on youtube.

Goodluck!

Lee

 

[Back@itagain]

I have never ever ever pulled a wet plug that was wet from fuel. If what you're saying is true, then fuel is sprayed in (yes, as a stream, I didn't mean to imply it was a fine mist) -- then, it has nowhere to go....so it magically decides to go on the sparkplug and just one one side?

Not sure if serious....

And if it is oil it is only on one side also?

To answer both of those suggested scenarios (fuel/oil) you just have to look at the cylinder head. Not the entire spark plug is exposed to the incoming charge as the valves open. Fuel and/or oil both can be deposited on the side of the plug. If the piston ends up down around BDC when shut off and doesn't come up to push the cylinders contents around then wouldn't you end up with fuel and/or oil only on a portion of the plug?

 

[hamish]

I've pulled many plugs that were wet on strong running engines.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Are you going to replace the plugs?

No, I have a set of Brisks that look pretty good. A hell of a lot better than these. lol But since I was not experiencing any kind of misfire. I figured they are fine and will run them hoping they will eventually clean them selves out. I'll stop running Torco at the racing events. I should be OK to run 91 without issues.

During the spark plug inspection, I also replaced my FRPP coils (stock brown boot coils) to these:

I know, I know...nothing beats stock. But I just wanted to try them out.
Here is some info on them: http://www.performancedistributors.com/soscoils.htm

For Ford 4.6 and 5.4 V8 owners, the distress calls for the COP (Coil On Plug) Ignition Systems have finally been answered! Performance Distributors is now offering the SOS (Sultans Of Spark) high performance coils for the Ford modular V8 engines. Advanced technology has allowed us to pack more electrifying voltage into these small coils for tire roasting performance out of your late model Ford V8. The SOS Coils are designed with increased windings to boost spark output up to 40,000 volts! That is a 60% increase in spark energy over the 25,000 volts produced by the stock coils. The higher voltage along with increased spark duration will allow plug gaps to be opened up to .065". This larger gap exposes a hotter spark in the combustion chamber for an increased burn of the fuel mixture, resulting in more horsepower and better fuel economy. Additional benefits include quicker starting, smoother idle and greater throttle response. The SOS Coils are designed utilizing proven technology, the same quality that has gone into our DUI and Screamin' Demon Coils. No gimmicks are used for our coils such as "zero resistance" or tricked out "rings", just pure hardcore ignition performance from the leader in high performance ignition systems. Recent testing
on a 1997 F-150 with the 5.4 concluded that the SOS Coils reduced 0-60 times by an average of .84 seconds compared to the stock coils. That's performance you can feel! The SOS coils are a direct replacement for the factory coils and do not require any special modifications. Also available for the V10 engines. SOS Coils are covered by a one year warranty.

At startup, I noticed the car required less turns to start and the idle feels a lot smoother/stronger. Throttle response is crisp; but in all honestly, not sure if its any better than stock. Or is all this a result of eliminating the PCV system... lol


Here are pictures of the Bank 2 plugs:

Plug #5

I noticed this on all the threads:

Seems to me that the shop that last messed with the plugs put some type of anti-seize or something. Weird. My understanding is that you're not supposed to!!!

Plug #6

Plug #7

Plug #8

Inside plug #8

So these look a little better I guess.
When I smelled the plugs, they smell exactly the same as the fluid/oil that comes out of the catch can/oil separator. Unless that's how a combustion chamber is supposed to smell.

Also, after replacing all the plugs and installing the new coils, I cranked up the car with the PCV system removed, meaning the supercharger elbow is plugged along with the intake tube.

While idling, I noticed the passenger side is blowing air...a lot more than the driver's side. The driver's side has a faint blow. If I plug the passenger side hose, then the driver's side increases in flow. PCV valve in the driver's side works. No air in, but all of it comes out.

Let's see what eliminating the PCV system does. I am hoping the plugs will clean themselves somewhat...enough to see if there is a difference.

In the meantime, I will source a compression and leak down testing tools.

Thanks for all your help guys...not sure what I would do without you guys.

Gerald, I have a set of NGK Iridium cold plugs that I just pulled out yesterday. You are welcome to use them for testing if you want. I'd really like to look at your pcv setup too. Do you work dayshift? I'm home right now and have the evening free.

Thanks Bruce, I have a set of spare plugs that are much cleaner than these; they're Brisks though.
I took the day off today to tinker with the car some more and finish the breather catch can install. I'll be home all day... lol

FYI...I run a oil ring gap half of what you do.... .015 is what I run on stainless rings.

And no oil issues? Hmm, I'm still hoping its either the rings that have not seated yet or it is indeed the PCV system causing me grief. I also hope its not a head issue.
I am planning on my next oil change, to just dump some cheap auto parts oil in there in hopes of sealing the rings once and for all.

What plugs are those? They look to cold, shouldn't be black on the bottom. The Torco makes reading them difficult. #3 and #1 are without a doubt a problem but you can't tell for sure from just the plugs if it is rings or valve seals.....hell it could be like others have said and may just be sucking oil into the intake but I would expect to see both banks of plugs looking like that.

Compression test would help point you in the right direction without pulling the intake to check for oil in the intake or from the valve seals.

Proper way to do a compression test is to pull all the plugs. Unplug the injectors or pull the fuel pump fuse. Hold the throttle wide open and crank the engine and get 3 hits on the compression stroke, you can do more than three hits but just do all eight cylinders the same. If all eight are with 10-15% then pull the SC and look for oil.

I will be happy to send you my leak down gauge but I think you will be able to find the issue without it.

Here is a link on doing a leak down http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html

Also some videos on youtube.

Goodluck!

Lee

They are the NGK Iridiums...stock 12mm plugs for the 08-10 heads.

 

[TheKurgan]

1) I wouldn't use torco. I had bad experience with that also.
2) Use stock COPs
3)You might want to datalog or better yet just go ahead and get a dyno tune. I don't see any sense in spending all that money on a new engine and then getting an email tune. Not knocking Lito, but imo there is no substitute when you have a combination such as yours.
4) Use 1 degree colder plugs.

Good on ya getting rid of the PCV system.

 

[BruceH]

I also noticed a lot of air and oil vapor coming out of the passenger side when I tried breathers. Not having a draw on the motor really changes the dynamics of how the crankcase vents.

I still don't know why you go out of your way to get 91 when 92 is everywhere, lol. Whenever I've compared tunes with someone who is using 93 my spark advance is the same or more.

I'd agree with the cops statement by Kurgan but I'd disagree about your tuner and his method, you have one of the best and you know how thourogh he is with all the data. IMO a street pull is more valuable than a dyno pull.

What's the plan if you are still consuming oil after the pcv delete?

 

[AutoXRacer]

I also noticed a lot of air and oil vapor coming out of the passenger side when I tried breathers. Not having a draw on the motor really changes the dynamics of how the crankcase vents.

I still don't know why you go out of your way to get 91 when 92 is everywhere, lol. Whenever I've compared tunes with someone who is using 93 my spark advance is the same or more.

I'd agree with the cops statement by Kurgan but I'd disagree about your tuner and his method, you have one of the best and you know how thourogh he is with all the data. IMO a street pull is more valuable than a dyno pull.

What's the plan if you are still consuming oil after the pcv delete?

LOL
No, I don't go out of my way to get 91... I always get 92 or more if I can. Its just when I go to racing events, seems like there is only 91 available. Plus these events are in the middle of nowhere, so I don't trust the fuel.

So I put Torco in it as a safety measure to increase octane to 95 or so.

Reason I went with a remote tune is that there is no one out here that's trustworthy... Definitely not better than a remote tune. If I still lived in FL, I would have gone with VMP Tuning. But out here in WA, you are limited and I did not want to go with just anyone.

Got the car back together...so I will drive it for the next few days and see what happens...finger's crossed. LOL


BTW, so far I really like the new COPs...really smooth starts and idle. The motor just feels stronger especially when coming down from high revs, it doesn't dip anymore.

 

[HellsBells]

Who would've thought something made by the "Sultans of Spark" would work well lol. Glad they're working out. I am contemplating MSD COPs but everyone says to stay stock.

Also, why the Torco over say, a couple gallons of race gas?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Who would've thought something made by the "Sultans of Spark" would work well lol. Glad they're working out. I am contemplating MSD COPs but everyone says to stay stock.

Also, why the Torco over say, a couple gallons of race gas?

These COPs are made by Performance Distributors that are known for some pretty stout distributor ignition systems. I figured I'd give the less marketed ones a try. I have used their products a long long time about on an older Ford and they were great. Plus, they are the only ones to give specs. MSD, Accel, and others don't give specs. I love MSD, but no specs...so I didn't want to guess on what I bought. Plus there are a lot of people that have used them with no major recommendations.

I drove to work with the new COPs today. I did not go WOT or anything, just regular commuting and I definitely feel a difference in driveability. Letting the clutch out without throttle input, the motor is definitely stronger...RPMs to not dip as soon as the clutch engages....as it did with OEM COPs. Motor feels smoother too.

Not sure how to evaluate these COPs other than dynoing with OEM, then these. But that would be for HP/TQ evaluations.

I wish there was a way to test them by looking at the actual spark energy jumping the gap.

I use Torco because the racing events I go to are in remote areas. No race fuel. In these remote areas the octane is also lower than in the city. So Torco is handy to have in your trunk if you get stuck with lower octane fuel or even questionable fuel quality.