cortex watts link

[Gray Ghost GT]

Here are the facts:

(1) Which company designed & marketed the first watts link for the S197? Fays2 or Cortex, and for more Mustang platforms?

Answer: Fays2

(2) Which company uses a chassis mounted design, which provides superior performance to the differential mounted design?

Answer: Fays2

(3) Which company sells their watts link for $350 less than their competition while maintaining a proven performance record?

Answer: Fays2

(4) Which company has been involved in road racing longer with their watts link with vintage Mustangs, SN95 and the S197?

Answer: Fays2

(5) Which company provides a watts link solution for S197 Convertibles? The competition often only supports Coupe models.

Answer: Fays2

(6) Which watts link design allows you to race in more series due to strict rules because you're not modifying the differential?

Answer: Fays2

(7) Which company allows you to use OEM or Ford Racing Differential covers? Competition adds more weight to the differential.

Answer: Fays2

(8) Which company copied a design vs. being the first with an original design? Knock-off typically don't understand the science.

Answer: Cortex (Thanks to Griggs)

(9) Which company adds more unsprung weight (20 lbs.) to the live axle; degrading handling performance of the suspension?

Answer: Cortex

You see where this is going? Oh, wait - the most important question for a watts link:

(10) Which company produces a shiny beautiful elegant watts link "super model"?

Answer: Apparently Cortex....

Have you noticed the Fays2 haters can't explain why in technical terms why they think their $$Cortex$$ choice is better for the road courses vs. a photo shoot on jack standards? Every rumor about the Fays2 watts link was squashed, e.g., noise, exhaust, sway bars, racing and the list goes on. Stick to the facts. Yes, it is possible to say the Fays2 works better if you understand suspension dynamics of a chassis vs. differential mounted watts link. It's Physics and Geometry.

The Cortex places the pivot on the differential. Therefore the motion of the axle must move in a straight line relative to the body of the car, e.g., if the car is leaning, so will the direction of bump travel. Also, the relationship between the roll center and the center of gravity changes during bumps. This is also not good.

The Fays2 places the pivot on the chassis, which allows the axle to move straight up and down relative to the surface, no matter how far over the body is leaning in the turns and esses. The cars roll center and center of gravity do not change in relation to each other. This relationship is known as roll couple and has a great effect on handling under cornering, braking and acceleration.

It's obvious that the Cortex fan doesn't understand these suspension dynamic details (except to say something like, "It's race") because he even states in his post:

The Steeda / Fays 2 Truss: Why would you introduce a large steel structure in between your differential and swaybar ......

Which watts link is probably the worst with regards to design...Whiteline, because its a "single sheer" system that's been known to fail as have other products that they eventually Recalled, such as their Rear Upper Control Arm based on poor engineering design & manufacturing in an effort to be the cheapest on the market.

 

[Roadracer350]

You forgot some;
Who has the quietest watts on the market - Whiteline
Who has the easiest install on the market - Whiteline
Who I'd the cheapest of the diff mounted watts - Whiteline
Who is the lightest of the diff mounted watts - Whiteline

 

[Whiskey11]

(2) Which company uses a chassis mounted design, which provides superior performance to the differential mounted design?

Answer: Fays2

(8) Which company copied a design vs. being the first with an original design? Knock-off typically don't understand the science.

Answer: Cortex (Thanks to Griggs)

2.) This is subjective. There are advantages and disadvantages to both designs and frankly, I think it's a wash. They do the same thing at the end of the day. Like the discussion about Torque Arms vs 3-Links, one does a much better job of keeping the roll center stable relative to the CG (vs the IC stable) and the other is more dynamic. Which is preferred depends entirely on the driver and how the car is setup.

I'm sure Norm can elaborate more but at the end of the day I really do think it is a wash and I'm willing to bet Norm will say it is really too damn close to call either way.

8.) I'm not sure what the actual relationship between Cortex and Griggs is. Originally it was believed that Filip was actually a former employee of Griggs and I swear during conversation he alluded to such saying that he left Griggs Racing because they wouldn't allow him the flexibility to change a design to make it better. I don't know and it doesn't matter that much to me. Cortex's first Watts link design certainly looked a lot like Griggs racing did and who knows, maybe Filip rebranded the Griggs unit until he could get his own under the car? I don't know. They certainly are NOT similar now.

That said, having talked with Filip, I have to admit, Filip knows his shit and can think on his feet. He has the tools in house to test part changes without ever laying a weld or cutting materials and he has the knowledge and expertise to properly employ those tools for the betterment of his product. When I was discussing my torque arm with him he had some concerns about using a different differential cover and he ran a simulation with multiple different cover thicknesses and would not allow me to use the stock differential cover. That's fine, it was a good excuse to upgrade and I'm glad he didn't just say "YEAH! We will do that!" just to make a sale and then let me figure everything out on my own. I know he has spent a lot of time and effort on his product and he has earned my business in that regard.

You forgot some;
Who has the quietest watts on the market - Whiteline
Who has the easiest install on the market - Whiteline

-I'm not sure why noise is coming up again. Once installed correctly, my Fays2 has been silent. If it does squeak I can't hear it from inside the car and if it does clunk and rattle I know it is because the rod ends need replacing. The worst part about the Fays2 unit is the fact that you have consumables that need replacing every year and a half or two years.

-I don't know if I'd consider pulling the differential cover off "easiest to install" considering how BAD rear diff fluid + friction modifier smells. It takes me about 30 minutes to an hour to remove the stock PHB and brace and setup the Fays2 unit and get it adjusted correctly. If the Whiteline is easier to install it is because there is NO adjustment on it at all with exception to a slightly different roll center height. Sure you can change the length of the arms but changing the length of the arms and not having them the same length (as some do to center their cars with the WL unit) will cause the rear suspension to move in an arc and bind. Those bushings probably allow for some of that misalignment but that isn't how it should be setup.

 

[NoTicket]

Hey Whiskey,

Are you being completely honest about the clunking and clacking only happening when the rod ends are worn out? I just want to make sure.

I have ridden in cars with Cortex, Whiteline, and Fays2 watts links. Of the three the loudest by far was the Fays2. I cannot vouch for proper install etc. so obviously this is all non-scientific. The cortex was second loudest, especially after considering the amount of rear axle noise and driveshaft clunking was making it in to the cabin. The Whiteline is pretty much completely silent and their bushings do a good job of isolating the drive train noise from the cabin.

After reading all of this thread I have started being swayed toward the Fays2 dark side. However, before I do something drastic, I wanted to make sure you were being as straight up as possible about the level of noise.

Also, how expensive is it to replace the rod ends? It seems like it would be incredibly easy to do the replacement.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

2.) This is subjective. There are advantages and disadvantages to both designs and frankly, I think it's a wash. They do the same thing at the end of the day.

8.) I'm not sure what the actual relationship between Cortex and Griggs is. Originally it was believed that Filip was actually a former employee of Griggs and I swear during conversation he alluded to such saying that he left Griggs Racing because they wouldn't allow him the flexibility to change a design to make it better. I don't know and it doesn't matter that much to me. Cortex's first Watts link design certainly looked a lot like Griggs racing did and who knows, maybe Filip rebranded the Griggs unit until he could get his own under the car? I don't know. They certainly are NOT similar now.

What are the advantages of a differential mounted watts link over a chassis mounted watts link (if there are any) since I explained the benefits of the Fays2 design over a differential mounted competitor? Fact is they don't do the "same" thing at the end of the day while working to support a similar purpose as a "watts link". Cortex and Griggs are not similar, really? All they've done is modified their differential cover to incorporate the plate (blue) depicted on the Griggs product. I can honestly say after driving my Mustang with the Fays2 for three years now, that there is no NVH based on the rumors provided by non-users or competitors.

 

[sheizasosay]

I would rather have a Fayys and that is coming from someone with a diff mounted watts that is not noisy and WILL hold up to major abuse. Cortex would be my next choice....after the Fayys. The whiteline would not be a choice. The Steeda would not be a choice.

All this talk about weight. The unsprung weight from the diff mounted doesn't equal the body weight of the Fayys. Bad bad comparison for the diff mounted crew.

Choices and options are there for the mustang crowd. We should all look at facts and understand the options. Bunch of bullshit talk going on right now.

Some people need to get their facts straight and make sure that all the "personal experience" with said products knows a few things:
1-was the product installed correctly?
2-were there other mods that could interfere with evaluation?

I'm sure the list could be much longer.

 

[sheizasosay]

What are the advantages of a differential mounted watts link over a chassis mounted watts link (if there are any) since I explained the benefits of the Fays2 design over a differential mounted competitor?

The benefit of the diff mounted watts is that it is less of an obstruction.

 

[NoTicket]

What are the advantages of a differential mounted watts link over a chassis mounted watts link (if there are any) since I explained the benefits of the Fays2 design over a differential mounted competitor? Fact is they don't do the "same" thing at the end of the day while working to support a similar purpose as a "watts link". Cortex and Griggs are not similar, really? All they've done is modified their differential cover to incorporate the plate (blue) depicted on the Griggs product. I can honestly say after driving my Mustang with the Fays2 for three years now, that there is no NVH based on the rumors provided by non-users or competitors.

First off you didn't explain it. You repeated what you read in a link posted earlier in the thread. Frankly, I have not taken the necessary time to do the geometry work to verify the claims made in that thread. It seems like it is based on some assumptions about how the arms rotate around the center pivot that I am not sold on just yet.

I think it merits further discussion.

Let's not just make this dissolve in to a brand pissing contest.

In regards to the cortex design vs griggs. Obviously they are similar but the Cortex is arguably now superior. Notice the diff cover has the propeller mounting holes machined directly and no extra metal is needed. The brace is also different than the griggs and I believe it provides more rear clearance for sway bars and the like. There is no doubt the Cortex design was inspired by Griggs, and it still resembles it very much. But that does not mean much considering that is pretty much how the aftermarket evolves.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

The benefit of the diff mounted watts is that it is less of an obstruction.

I can agree with that, but we should also acknowledge that the Fays2 does not obstruct OEM or aftermarket exhaust systems, sway bars, shocks and other suspension components based on my personal experience and others that are using this watts link. It essentially adds a truss to support the chassis mount.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

First off you didn't explain it. You repeated what you read in a link posted earlier in the thread. Frankly, I have not taken the necessary time to do the geometry work to verify the claims made in that thread. It seems like it is based on some assumptions about how the arms rotate around the center pivot that I am not sold on just yet.

The differences between the two designs (I'm assuming you mean: differential vs. chassis mount) is more than "How the arms rotate around the center pivot". If you're referring to the Cortex vs. Griggs, then yes, I would verify the length, position and geometry of the arms connected to the center point to see how similar or different these two options are.

 

[NoTicket]

The differences between the designs (I'm assuming you mean: differential vs. chassis mount) is more than "How the arms rotate around the center pivot". However, if you're referring to the Cortex vs. Griggs, then yes, I would verify the length, position and geometry of the arms connected to the center point to see how similar or different these two options are.

I'm talking about the claim that a chassis mounted propeller allows for the axle to freely move vertically and the diff mounted does not. On the surface this seems true, but only if the arms do not articulate. I have been working on the details, working up diagrams of the full 3 link suspension and both watts links and working on motion simulations with a tilted chassis on both. But its Christmas so I won't have time to finish these till this weekend.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I'm talking about the claim that a chassis mounted propeller allows for the axle to freely move vertically and the diff mounted does not. On the surface this seems true, but only if the arms do not articulate. I have been working on the details, working up diagrams of the full 3 link suspension and both watts links and working on motion simulations with a tilted chassis on both. But its Christmas so I won't have time to finish these till this weekend.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Ah, you're referring to my earlier post, "placing the pivot on the chassis (with articulating arms) allows the axle to move straight up and down relative to the road surface, no matter how far over the body is leaning in the turns and esses. The cars roll center and center of gravity do not change in relation to each other. This relationship is known as roll couple and has a great effect on handling under cornering, braking and acceleration." Good to model/sim. Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[NoTicket]

Merry Christmas all you Watts Link maniacs!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[sheizasosay]

First off you didn't explain it. You repeated what you read in a link posted earlier in the thread. Frankly, I have not taken the necessary time to do the geometry work to verify the claims made in that thread. It seems like it is based on some assumptions about how the arms rotate around the center pivot that I am not sold on just yet.

I think it merits further discussion.

Did you see Norm's post #71? August 2002. This stuff has been covered long ago and by people at the top of the food chain of suspension knowledge.

Hey Whiskey,

Are you being completely honest about the clunking and clacking only happening when the rod ends are worn out? I just want to make sure.
Whiskey probably should answer for himself, but Whiskey isn't gonna bullshit to push a product. This I know. If he gets out of line, we will police him .
I have ridden in cars with Cortex, Whiteline, and Fays2 watts links. Of the three the loudest by far was the Fays2. I cannot vouch for proper install etc. so obviously this is all non-scientific.

Not only is the install important, but the other mods are REALLY important. Was there an aftermarket UCA or LCAs on the car? Did they have rod ends? Yeah....it matters huge. How do you know what is making the noise with all that other shit on there? Word of the day "Baseline".

The cortex was second loudest, especially after considering the amount of rear axle noise and driveshaft clunking was making it in to the cabin. The Whiteline is pretty much completely silent and their bushings do a good job of isolating the drive train noise from the cabin.
Bushings on joints that don't articulate can induce bind. Welcome to the world of performance.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Norm Peterson]

I was going to let your 10:35 PM post go until I'd caught up with the rest of what came in. Then you had to go and spoil it with the next one. Merry Christmas.

Norm if something looks like shit . . . it looks like shit and that is reason in and of itself to question it's design. Because the reason it looks like shit is that it has extraneous hardware not needed to perform the task. Mainly a big ass truss/ jungle gym.

In order to question the design of something that has a specific function you first have to understand exactly what that function is. I'll get to that (probably again) eventually. Probably not in this post.

Even a lowly layman can look at it and say: "there has got to be a better way". And there is.

And that's why some folks are laymen and others are engineers.

As to whether looks make a difference to a performance addict, who does not look at a piece first off to admire or criticize it's design?

I can only speak for myself.

For anything that's supposed to have a performance function, the first "look" I give it will be to evaluate how well it is likely to perform that function. Next will be for its workmanship, assuming that it passes a functional and engineering sanity check. Aesthetics is rarely if ever any higher than 3rd, and in the case of undercar components not even that high. Trust me on this.

Right off the top of my head there is at least one thing automotive in nature that I have and always will prefer to do one way that many (probably most) people actively dislike the appearance of. This one is a lot more visible than the Watts links under discussion here, so that's as far as I'm going to go with this train of thought.

Ask yourself how would Porshe, Ferrari, Pagani solve this engineering / design issue? Do you think it would be closer to the Fays II or Griggs/ Cortex?

Depends on what they might be trying to achieve. There's more to this than you are aware of, so their choice might not agree with your appearance-based opinion.

You have to go back 11 years to fish out a failure story.

Odd, I don't recall doing any such thing. But maybe I'm having a senior moment and will be lucky enough that you will point out where I did. I'll wait.

So you can't say the Fays II functions better.

There is more to "functioning better" than the mere absence of documented failure(s). So yes, I can . . . depending on what it is you're trying to do with a Watts link.

As Italians would say the Fays II / Steeda Truss "Non e Simpatico".

That sounded just a bit too presumptuous, so I fixed it for you.

So Looks may not make a difference to a performance addict but they don't make a difference to a sex addict either . . . . sometimes addictions can lead you to erroneous decisions.

I guess the bottom of the ammunition box just got bare.


Norm

 

[Swine]

Here are the facts:

(1) Which company designed & marketed the first watts link for the S197? Fays2 or Cortex, and for more Mustang platforms?

Answer: Fays2

(2) Which company uses a chassis mounted design, which provides superior performance to the differential mounted design?

Answer: Fays2

(3) Which company sells their watts link for $350 less than their competition while maintaining a proven performance record?

Answer: Fays2

(4) Which company has been involved in road racing longer with their watts link with vintage Mustangs, SN95 and the S197?

Answer: Fays2

(5) Which company provides a watts link solution for S197 Convertibles? The competition often only supports Coupe models.

Answer: Fays2

(6) Which watts link design allows you to race in more series due to strict rules because you're not modifying the differential?

Answer: Fays2

(7) Which company allows you to use OEM or Ford Racing Differential covers? Competition adds more weight to the differential.

Answer: Fays2

(8) Which company copied a design vs. being the first with an original design? Knock-off typically don't understand the science.

Answer: Cortex (Thanks to Griggs)

(9) Which company adds more unsprung weight (20 lbs.) to the live axle; degrading handling performance of the suspension?

Answer: Cortex

You see where this is going? Oh, wait - the most important question for a watts link:

(10) Which company produces a shiny beautiful elegant watts link "super model"?

Answer: Apparently Cortex....

Have you noticed the Fays2 haters can't explain why in technical terms why they think their $$Cortex$$ choice is better for the road courses vs. a photo shoot on jack standards? Every rumor about the Fays2 watts link was squashed, e.g., noise, exhaust, sway bars, racing and the list goes on. Stick to the facts. Yes, it is possible to say the Fays2 works better if you understand suspension dynamics of a chassis vs. differential mounted watts link. It's Physics and Geometry.

The Cortex places the pivot on the differential. Therefore the motion of the axle must move in a straight line relative to the body of the car, e.g., if the car is leaning, so will the direction of bump travel. Also, the relationship between the roll center and the center of gravity changes during bumps. This is also not good.

The Fays2 places the pivot on the chassis, which allows the axle to move straight up and down relative to the surface, no matter how far over the body is leaning in the turns and esses. The cars roll center and center of gravity do not change in relation to each other. This relationship is known as roll couple and has a great effect on handling under cornering, braking and acceleration.

It's obvious that the Cortex fan doesn't understand these suspension dynamic details (except to say something like, "It's race") because he even states in his post:



Which watts link is probably the worst with regards to design...Whiteline, because its a "single sheer" system that's been known to fail as have other products that they eventually Recalled, such as their Rear Upper Control Arm based on poor engineering design & manufacturing in an effort to be the cheapest on the market.

Well, everyone may hate the steeda bc of price and looks, but if they copied the fays atleast they copied a solid design.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's been over a decade since a very similar chassis-mount Watts link was given not one but two engineering stress analyses in addition to some of the same stuff we've seen here. I did one computerized analysis for estimating the stiffness of the frame against lateral loads, and Jon Aadland (a Boeing stress engineer) ran a finite analysis for element stresses and displacement profile. This Watts link was by Evolution Motorsports, and obviously preceded the S197. But since the methods of stress analysis haven't changed in the meantime it's plenty good for illustration and proof that this whole Watts link topic is kind of old hat to some of us.


Barbaro - I hope Jon doesn't mind me copying and pasting a picture that's been in the public domain for just over 11 years this month (the post I pulled it from is date-stamped mid-December of 2002), but you can see that while this isn't a Fays2 it is very similar. The whole thread ran over 240 posts, not too many of which were distracting noise. What other forum? Let's just say I hope you don't think that patience is in short supply here and leave it at that.


All - enjoy what only took me a few minutes to dig up.

Norm

 

[sheizasosay]

Well, everyone may hate the steeda bc of price and looks, but if they copied the fays atleast they copied a solid design.

"hate" is not the right word. A copy for more money is just dumb.

 

[Whiskey11]

Hey Whiskey,

Are you being completely honest about the clunking and clacking only happening when the rod ends are worn out? I just want to make sure.

I have ridden in cars with Cortex, Whiteline, and Fays2 watts links. Of the three the loudest by far was the Fays2. I cannot vouch for proper install etc. so obviously this is all non-scientific. The cortex was second loudest, especially after considering the amount of rear axle noise and driveshaft clunking was making it in to the cabin. The Whiteline is pretty much completely silent and their bushings do a good job of isolating the drive train noise from the cabin.

After reading all of this thread I have started being swayed toward the Fays2 dark side. However, before I do something drastic, I wanted to make sure you were being as straight up as possible about the level of noise.

Also, how expensive is it to replace the rod ends? It seems like it would be incredibly easy to do the replacement.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

What reason do I have to push a product or lie? I am not sponsored by anyone but myself (Cone 502 Racing being my own "Race Team" and is mostly a joke) nor do I sell product. My Fays2, once setup correctly, was noise free up until the rod ends wore out. The rest of the rear suspension has gone through parts that cause noise like my Strano rear bar, my Cortex Racing Torque Arm, my modified rear LCAs, and my coilover spring perches to be specific. The watts might be responsible for some added impact harshness but it pales in comparison to the rest of the rear suspension.

The cost of replacement rod ends was basically $90 with shipping.

I will do my best to respond about chassis vs diff mounted when I actually get on my computer. Too much to type on the cell phone. That is unless Norm dives into it first.

 

[ArizonaGT]

The cost of replacement rod ends was basically $90 with shipping.

Do you order those directly from Fays or generic/Summit etc?