2008 Stage 3 ROUSH - Rebirth...

[BMR Tech]

Gotcha!!

Okay, cool.

I just wanted to make sure that he was not going to use external weight, or weight removal, to balance the entire assembly.

Basically, I hope anyways, he is going to balance the rotating assembly - then ensure that the external components are perfectly balanced ("zero" or "neutral") so that there is not an imbalance within the "system"

I'm sure that's probably what he is doing.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Update!!!

If all goes well, I should have my shortblock along with heads, cams, flywheel/clutch, and balancer tomorrow evening!! WAHOO!!

...after 6 months at the machine shop... sigh

 

[AutoXRacer]

Bad news!!!

My custom Manley pistons where manufactured incorrectly. The first ring radial is too shallow; approx 0.145", should be 0.175".

!@#$%^&*()_

 

[BruceH]

I have a couple of blocks that are honed for the matching balanced rotating assembly. I'll let you have the parts for what I have into them so you can get your car going again. All of the machine work is done. Then you would have a backup block always at the ready when yours is finally done.

Send me a pm if you are interested.

Bad news!!!

My custom Manley pistons where manufactured incorrectly. The first ring radial is too shallow; approx 0.145", should be 0.175".

!@#$%^&*()_

 

[05stroker]

Bad news!!!

My custom Manley pistons where manufactured incorrectly. The first ring radial is too shallow; approx 0.145", should be 0.175".

!@#$%^&*()_

This is why I had to learn how to do this shit myself.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I have a couple of blocks that are honed for the matching balanced rotating assembly. I'll let you have the parts for what I have into them so you can get your car going again. All of the machine work is done. Then you would have a backup block always at the ready when yours is finally done.

Send me a pm if you are interested.

Bruce, I am broke... I have reached the bottom of my funds. Scraping pennies from the bottom trying to pay the machine shop. sigh

Thank you!!! I will probably be building my stock motor though. I will definitely be seeking your help on that one.

 

[BMR Tech]

Bad news!!!

My custom Manley pistons where manufactured incorrectly. The first ring radial is too shallow; approx 0.145", should be 0.175".

!@#$%^&*()_

What led to this discovery?

Is Manley making it right?

That's gotta be a super rare issue....

 

[AutoXRacer]

What led to this discovery?

Is Manley making it right?

That's gotta be a super rare issue....

The engine builder was assembling the shortblock and when they went to assemble the rings onto the pistons, the top ring did not fully collapse into the ring gap. The ring protrudes pass the piston side surface.

They tested the 2nd ring gap and the ring fully collapses inside the gap.
They also verified my original pistons and both 1st and 2nd ring gaps allow the rings to fully collapse.

The spec for ring radials is 0.175". My approximate 1st ring radial is 0.145", since a 0.150" wide ring cannot fully collapse inside the gap.

The builder is calling Manley this morning and will speak with their engineer.

The builder spoke with Total Seal (ring manufacturer) and they said they can shave the inner diameter of the ring, thus making it thinner to work with the shallow piston ring radial. Total Seal said the ring would still be within tolerance.

But I would personally prefer to make it right and fix the pistons even though it would take longer.
Not sure what long term effects would be with shortening the width of the top ring.

 

[tigerhonaker]

Bad news!!!

My custom Manley pistons where manufactured incorrectly. The first ring radial is too shallow; approx 0.145", should be 0.175".

!@#$%^&*()_

Gerald,

I have been following your build thread and just saw this latest post.

Sorry about this latest issue.

Terry

 

[AutoXRacer]

I have the midas touch for defective parts... lol

 

[DiMora]

I'd get on the phone with Manley myself and ask them to perform some expedited shipping and repair or replacement.

 

[AutoXRacer]

While my pistons are being worked... I performed my 2nd to last mod on my bucket list:

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2055337#post2055337

Driver's side will be installed after I route my wideband harness...

 

[AutoXRacer]

Latest update on pistons:

Manley called and asked me why I am using 150 rings...
I said thats what is speced.

Manley informed me that the new cars today are using 120-130 rings to reduce friction. That there is no degradation in reliability/performance.

Manley said they have 1,200HP cars all over the US running 120-125 rings with no issues. They said the new Coyote runs 120 rings.

So their suggestion, they are willing to supply a set of top rings to match the pistons; 138-140 ring set as long as my builder sends back the 150 set.

Otherwise, a new set of pistons needs to be made as they can't fix my current set.

Last time it took Manley 2 months to make a set... I'm leaning towards using the smaller radial set if there are no negative aspects. Which means I'd have a 150 bottom set and 140 top set.

 

[retfr8flyr]

This is why I use an engine builder that I really trust and let him get all the needed parts. It may cost me a little more to get the parts through him but I know everything will work correctly together. As busy as engine builders are it can take many extra weeks to get your engine done, when they have a problem with parts you supplied.

 

[AutoXRacer]

This is why I use an engine builder that I really trust and let him get all the needed parts. It may cost me a little more to get the parts through him but I know everything will work correctly together. As busy as engine builders are it can take many extra weeks to get your engine done, when they have a problem with parts you supplied.

Yup, unfortunately the original pistons in the motor are proprietary design/spec. So he could not get them from his suppliers; they don't exist off the shelf. Thus they had to be custom made.

 

[BruceH]

If I understand correctly the shop want's to use (had already purchased or had on hand) different rings than are normally used. Different than what Manley normally sells and different than what is used by the entire mod motor community.

Is that correct?

Latest update on pistons:

Manley called and asked me why I am using 150 rings...
I said thats what is speced.

Manley informed me that the new cars today are using 120-130 rings to reduce friction. That there is no degradation in reliability/performance.

Manley said they have 1,200HP cars all over the US running 120-125 rings with no issues. They said the new Coyote runs 120 rings.

So their suggestion, they are willing to supply a set of top rings to match the pistons; 138-140 ring set as long as my builder sends back the 150 set.

Otherwise, a new set of pistons needs to be made as they can't fix my current set.

Last time it took Manley 2 months to make a set... I'm leaning towards using the smaller radial set if there are no negative aspects. Which means I'd have a 150 bottom set and 140 top set.

 

[AutoXRacer]

If I understand correctly the shop want's to use (had already purchased or had on hand) different rings than are normally used. Different than what Manley normally sells and different than what is used by the entire mod motor community.

Is that correct?

No, the shop ordered the correct rings; 150. But Manley mistakenly manufactured the pistons to use 140 rings.

So the options currently are, have the existing top rings (150) exchanged for 140 rings. Or make a new set of pistons.

The shop is willing to go either way as long as the material is the same to match the already honed cylinders.

The 1500HP Cobra Jet uses 140 rings. So I do not think there will be any issues with using a 140 ring vs a 150 ring at the top. The new Coyote motors use 120 rings!!

Just was looking to see if anyone had any experience or comments.
Also wanted to document just in case anyone goes through this.

Why do we use 150 rings anyway when all the new stuff uses smaller radial rings?

 

[BruceH]

The shop speced the pistons to run the rings they ordered? What is the 150 measurement? Do you mean 1.5mm thickness or is it a depth measurement or something else?


I'd think that all you would of needed was overbore pistons with a compression height of 1.050" to go with the 3.8" stroke crank. It shouldn't of been complicated at all. Basically take a shelf piston and change the compression height. I've only ordered semi custom pistons once but it just wasn't a big deal.

What ring pack are your pistons supposed to use?

No, the shop ordered the correct rings; 150. But Manley mistakenly manufactured the pistons to use 140 rings.

So the options currently are, have the existing top rings (150) exchanged for 140 rings. Or make a new set of pistons.

The shop is willing to go either way as long as the material is the same to match the already honed cylinders.

The 1500HP Cobra Jet uses 140 rings. So I do not think there will be any issues with using a 140 ring vs a 150 ring at the top. The new Coyote motors use 120 rings!!

Just was looking to see if anyone had any experience or comments.
Also wanted to document just in case anyone goes through this.

Why do we use 150 rings anyway when all the new stuff uses smaller radial rings?

 

[AutoXRacer]

The shop speced the pistons to run the rings they ordered? What is the 150 measurement? Do you mean 1.5mm thickness or is it a depth measurement or something else?


I'd think that all you would of needed was overbore pistons with a compression height of 1.050" to go with the 3.8" stroke crank. It shouldn't of been complicated at all. Basically take a shelf piston and change the compression height. I've only ordered semi custom pistons once but it just wasn't a big deal.

What ring pack are your pistons supposed to use?

On my build sheet is says Total Seal 46605-8. But I am not sure what that number refers to; can't find it on Total Seals website. All I know is that they were 0.150" (width) rings; which I understand used to be the standard for rings. The original pistons have 0.168" radial grooves (depth) for the rings.

The builder did not want to disturb the stroker setup. He tried to source pistons on his own, but his suppliers could not get 10 over pistons in the size needed for the stoker kit; none were available off the shelf. So instead of creating a new piston, we decided to just order up the same exact pistons that was originally used but with 10 overbore.

Manley did not manufacture the pistons according to JDM's specs. Which leads us to this conundrum. lol

 

[BruceH]

I found a set of Wiseco new pistons in my garage. Measured the rings and sure enough the top ring has a depth of .140". That is the ring goes .140" into the cylinder.

I feel for you. Like Earl said this is one reason to keep as much as possible in one shop. It's far too easy for miscommunication to happen.

IMO it sounds like the shop you are using isn't real familiar with modern motors. I'm fairly certain that Manley knows how to manufacture pistons. They offered to send the correct rings (that weren't supplied by Manley, the shop ordered Total Seal) which says a lot about them imo.

Good luck. I have two shortblocks over here if you get frustrated with the other build. Both should be able to hold whatever you can throw at them. I'm not too concerned about money right now. I would like to see you get your car back on the road.