DIY caster/camber adjustment and suspension setup

[Mineral_'01]

DIY caster/camber adjustment and suspension setup ?'s

Hi, first post here. I have a few questions for you HPDE/track guys. When you guys make a suspension change track side or in the garage, what are you using to dial in your caster and camber. I.E. digital caster/camber gauge, just eyeballing and evening out your CC plates, etc.

I have a boat load of suspension parts to install on my '14 TP over this winter (leave from deployment) and I want to dial in my own alignment specs, except for toe, in preparation for some HPDE events next year.

My setup will consist of Ground Control coilovers with their street plates and I just don't trust my local alignment to do custom specs. I was thinking of purchasing a digital acculevel caster camber gauge by Longacre and a set of Fastrax no-lip adapters to align it myself during the suspension install.

Last question, what would be a good starting point for stiffness (which hole) with the Strano front and rear bars? Again, the setup will be with GC coilovers set to about ~1.2 drop front and ~1.5 rear. Spring rates are 430lb/in front 225lb/in rear. I will be running the stock P-zeros (255) over this winter until I purchase and install a square set of nitto nt-05's 285mm next year on wider wheels. I was thinking of starting with the middle hole for the front and full soft in the rear. Looking for a pretty neutral balance with maybe a little bias of throttle induced oversteer.

Sorry to sound like a noob, just really getting started with performance suspension setup. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[jayel579]

Alignment settings can vary from person to person and setup to setup so there is no exact science here only theory. Generally you would want as much camber as you can get. Toe and caster will depend on steering feel and type of track. Caster is your general feel through the steering wheel though too much and the car can start to get "darty" especially under braking (these cars stock have plenty from Ford). Toe will give you a feel for turn-in but too much can cause excessive wear on your tires and kill your straight line speed. But remember, all of three of these adjustments have to and do work in concert with each other. In these cars, if you leave your toe static the add camber you will increase toe out.

Are your springs a linear rate or progressive? If linear I would suggest Sam's bars at full soft. I run mine at full soft with high rate springs. If those rates are progressive you can probably get away with setting the front in the middle or full stiff. The rear one you will want at full soft regardless of what the spring rates are.

 

[Mineral_'01]

Thank you for the reply. You give great advice, but maybe I should have clarified a few things above. I realize that toe will change any time the ride height or caster is adjusted. What I meant by not adjusting toe myself, was I am going to leave that angle adjustment done by an alignment tech with a laser. I don't think you can really do this one at home precisely enough without doing a time consuming string and tape method.

In a little more detail to my first post, I think I am going to shoot for about -1.7 camber for street, -3.0 for track, (with ~1.3" drop ride height both street and track) +7.0deg caster or whatever the GC plates give me, and have the toe set at zero on a laser rack. I was wanting to know a little bit more about how guys are setting up their caster/camber at home, especially anyone with Ground Control CC plates.

My springs are linear 430F 225R. I know or have read the best setting for the rear bar to start is definitely full soft. However I don't have that much info on the front settings and where to start with a linear 430lb/in front spring. Guess I will try them both on full soft and tune from there.

Thanks again for the reply and I am wanting to learn as much as I can about the (new to me) S197 chassis.

 

[sheizasosay]

For sake of tuning, start with middle holes on both bars. I'm fighting the urge to tell you to put your rear bar to the softest setting. Middle holes to start and that will allow you to go softer or stiffer for either side of the car you want to adjust.

I don't do my alignments, but MM has tools (also) to do your own alignment.

 

[csamsh]

Look up Whiskey11, he's run almost that identical setup.

Get some toe plates.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Longa...tCIzGSMzxvUDG4Sc5v4ekU_P6eJNFyf_ZMaAt0p8P8HAQ

 

[claudermilk]

I have Vorshlag plates, but I think they all work pretty much similar. After installing them, I took the car to a good alignment shop that knows hot rods and race cars. I had them do two settings: street and track. For street, I had them set to OEM specs with zero toe. For track, get me as much camber as possible. I had them mark the plates, but that didn't matter after the first day; however, I did get a setup sheet with measurements so I can reset the car. Basically measuring from the inside of the tower hole to the strut shaft. I let toe do what it will (slight toe out with increased camber, so what I want anyway).

 

[csamsh]

Yeah I just set toe at max camber and don't worry about it for the rest of the time.

 

[Mineral_'01]

For sake of tuning, start with middle holes on both bars. I'm fighting the urge to tell you to put your rear bar to the softest setting. Middle holes to start and that will allow you to go softer or stiffer for either side of the car you want to adjust.

I don't do my alignments, but MM has tools (also) to do your own alignment.

Interesting, this was kind of more of what I was thinking, but read a lot of threads on going full soft first. I guess it makes sense either way, but I believe the middle holes is where I'll start and see how it's balanced.

Look up Whiskey11, he's run almost that identical setup.

Get some toe plates.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Longa...tCIzGSMzxvUDG4Sc5v4ekU_P6eJNFyf_ZMaAt0p8P8HAQ

Hopefully Whisky11 will stop by this thread and provide some insight if he has time.

I will look into theses toe plates. Thanks

I have Vorshlag plates, but I think they all work pretty much similar. After installing them, I took the car to a good alignment shop that knows hot rods and race cars. I had them do two settings: street and track. For street, I had them set to OEM specs with zero toe. For track, get me as much camber as possible. I had them mark the plates, but that didn't matter after the first day; however, I did get a setup sheet with measurements so I can reset the car. Basically measuring from the inside of the tower hole to the strut shaft. I let toe do what it will (slight toe out with increased camber, so what I want anyway).

Thanks for providing some of your experience. I wish I had a local shop near me that specializes in performance alignments, but unfortunately I do not. This was the reason for me trying to do it myself. Curious after you had the shop set your alignment, and you changed it "after the first day" how did you ensure your camber was even on both sides without checking it with a gauge? Did you just use the tape measure method as described above?

Yeah I just set toe at max camber and don't worry about it for the rest of the time.

This a great idea, thank you for that.

 

[Mineral_'01]

Reply post to above awaiting moderator approval

For sake of tuning, start with middle holes on both bars. I'm fighting the urge to tell you to put your rear bar to the softest setting. Middle holes to start and that will allow you to go softer or stiffer for either side of the car you want to adjust.

I don't do my alignments, but MM has tools (also) to do your own alignment.

Interesting, this was kind of more of what I was thinking, but read a lot of threads on going full soft first. I guess it makes sense either way, but I believe the middle holes is where I'll start and see how it's balanced.

Look up Whiskey11, he's run almost that identical setup.

Get some toe plates.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Longacre-79500-Toe-Plates,502.html?utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=CSEGoogle&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&CAWELAID=1268489307&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=530009170000124779&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KEQjw7b-gBRC45uLY_avSrdgBEiQAD3Olx37MC5qN7tCIzGSMzxvUDG4Sc5v4ekU_P6eJNFyf_ZMaAt0p8P8HAQ[/QUOTE]

Hopefully Whisky11 will stop by this thread and provide some insight if he has time.

I will look into theses toe plates. Thanks

I have Vorshlag plates, but I think they all work pretty much similar. After installing them, I took the car to a good alignment shop that knows hot rods and race cars. I had them do two settings: street and track. For street, I had them set to OEM specs with zero toe. For track, get me as much camber as possible. I had them mark the plates, but that didn't matter after the first day; however, I did get a setup sheet with measurements so I can reset the car. Basically measuring from the inside of the tower hole to the strut shaft. I let toe do what it will (slight toe out with increased camber, so what I want anyway).

Thanks for providing some of your experience. I wish I had a local shop near me that specializes in performance alignments, but unfortunately I do not. This was the reason for me trying to do it myself. Curious after you had the shop set your alignment, and you changed it "after the first day" how did you ensure your camber was even on both sides without checking it with a gauge? Did you just use the tape measure method as described above?

Yeah I just set toe at max camber and don't worry about it for the rest of the time.

This a great idea, thank you for that.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

First off, I'd like to thank you for your service!

Do yourself a favor and google "string alignment" and read up on some of the theory and practical applications of aligning the car yourself. Next, save yourself a bunch of money, and get the Maximum Motorsports camber gauge, fab up some turnplates to do caster measurements (two 1/16" steel plates with grease between them work a treat!), and buy a set of Longacre toe plates. That, four jackstands and some light string are all you really need to do just about any alignment work up to and including squaring the chassis up.

As for setup, it really depends on driving style and intended usage. Mostly highway cruising? Factory spec. "Spirited" (but sane) street driving? Stock toe-in, add 0.5 or 1.0 degrees more negative camber. Track whore? As much negative camber as you can get, and 1/8" toe-OUT.

Swaybars: You've gotten some good advice. I would suggest starting with the middle settings, then drive it and feel it out. Then change one of the bars, either stiffer or softer, and note what the change feels like. Then go the other way. Then change the other bar. Get a feel for what change does what to the car in what way... Then, go full stiff up front, full soft in the back, and use that for a baseline. Alter the rear bar (go stiffer or remove) as necessary to get the behaviour you want.

The "full stiff up front" recommendation is based on your comment about using the street plates, and I'm also assuming street spring rates. Those are soft enough that you'll get into the compromised area of the camber curve with suspension jounce under cornering. Traditionally, the more bar you add, the less grip you have on that end of the car. This is the exception. With a lowered car, as you move into a roll condition, the camber curve goes aggressively positive, which will kill both traction and the outside edges of the tires. The full-stiff bar helps combat that by reducing the amount of jounce under roll. Then adjust the rear to balance the car to taste. It's still a good idea to play around with the bar settings, front AND rear, so that you know empirically what the changes feel like, though.

Have fun, and be safe!!

 

[Racer47]

If you do the strings properly you can set toe with them and skip the toe plates. Whats nice about the strings is that you set them at axle height so you are measuring toe at the full diameter of the wheel. Although I will admit toe plates are faster.

Go here and download the manual. It has a some good info about alignments including castor measurement http://www.smartracingproducts.com/smartcamber.html

You don't even need turn plates. I just use baby powder on the garage floor and that makes it slick enough to turn the wheel without binding the suspension. My floor is painted so it may not work for everyone.

Lastly I just use a good digital level with a piece of square tubing that I cut to fit the wheel diameter. I use this one but there are many that work http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-9-in-Digital-Level-THD9403/100653598

Alignments are not hard to do. The more you mess with your car, the better off you are just doing it yourself. Digital levels have made the job a lot faster and easier. I used to do them with a bubble level and steel ruler.

Forgot one thing. I like low test fishing line instead of string. Its light, stretches nicely and has no fuzz so its a little easier to measure with.

 

[Whiskey11]

Look up Whiskey11, he's run almost that identical setup.

Get some toe plates.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Longa...tCIzGSMzxvUDG4Sc5v4ekU_P6eJNFyf_ZMaAt0p8P8HAQ

I would probably be the wrong person to ask as my alignments are all done professionally. I don't have the time or patience to do them myself other wise I probably would but understand that my alignment also comes with a corner weighting and isn't just a front wheel alignment.

The last time I had mine done, at my ride height (approximately 2.25" in the front drop), full out on the camber plates is about -1.5º of camber, +7.0º caster. I had them check the "toe sweep" between full out and full in and toe goes OUT by 0.10º. My DD settings are -1.5º of camber, +7.0º Caster and 0 total toe. Get to the autocross course, dump the plates in and I get -3.0º of camber, +7.0º of caster and -0.10º of toe (out). Good enough for me and tire wear has been consistently good for daily driving... autocross, even with 550lbs/in front springs and -3.0º of camber I'm still eating the outside shoulder of the tire...

 

[Mineral_'01]

Gentlemen, many thanks to those who replied in this thread. You have been a great help. I had a huge reply written up, multi quoting everyone, and I received a message that it was pending moderator approval?

Anyway, with the details provided by everyone, it sounds like I am good to go. Whiskey if you are still here, what are your thoughts on the Strano bars (I believe you are running these) and where I should start with my setup? My mustang is purely a toy and will be used mainly for sensible but spirited street driving and full course HPDE's. I live 35mins north of Road Atlanta. Might try and find some Autox events in the area as well.

 

[Whiskey11]

Gentlemen, many thanks to those who replied in this thread. You have been a great help. I had a huge reply written up, multi quoting everyone, and I received a message that it was pending moderator approval?

Anyway, with the details provided by everyone, it sounds like I am good to go. Whiskey if you are still here, what are your thoughts on the Strano bars (I believe you are running these) and where I should start with my setup? My mustang is purely a toy and will be used mainly for sensible but spirited street driving and full course HPDE's. I live 35mins north of Road Atlanta. Might try and find some Autox events in the area as well.

Well, I have both his 35mm front bar and the 25mm rear bar. My setup is a bit different than most folks are running but my front bar is at the full stiff position, the rear bar is at... well, it is sitting in a box and isn't being used. I have my stock rear swaybar on because I just don't need that much rear bar. I'm actually actively looking to eliminate the rear bar entirely from the equation as I want less weight transferred to the outside rear tire and more to stay on the inside rear tire since I'm changing differentials over to the T2R which goes open when unloaded sufficiently.

When I was using the rear bar I ran it in the middle position with the front bar full stiff. You will definitely need to tweak on your own though as I've tried just about every position on the rear bar at least once and the middle and full stiff position on the front bar and kept it at the full stiff position even with 550lbs/in front springs.

 

[Racer47]

Well, I have both his 35mm front bar and the 25mm rear bar. My setup is a bit different than most folks are running but my front bar is at the full stiff position, the rear bar is at... well, it is sitting in a box and isn't being used.

Do you have stock front a-arms?

 

[Whiskey11]

Do you have stock front a-arms?

Yup... ironically enough, the only stock parts left in the suspension of my car are:

Front LCA's, ball joints and bushings
Front swaybar endlinks (upgraded to the 2011+ but still Ford OEM)
Rear swaybar

Everything else has been replaced.

Note: I do not consider the K-member and radiator support as part of the suspension, those are stock on my car but I'd call them part of the chassis anyway.

EDIT: I guess technically the rear axle is stock too with exception of the diff cover.

 

[Racer47]

The reason I ask is because of your wheel rate ratio (from the strano bar thread). You probably know all of this already but here goes... With the stock a-arms and a 2.25" front drop, your front roll center is probably at ground level or maybe even lower. So you need a lot of front wheel rate to counteract the large roll moment.

Plus the roll axis ends up at a very high angle with front super low and the back high (I thought I read that your watts was at the top hole). That makes the car roll like a table with short leg. In a left hander, the RF goes down, the LR goes up and the other two corners don't move much.

I think you may be trying to fine tune a set up that may need some re-thinking.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that. But sometimes a different perspective can help.

 

[csamsh]

The reason I ask is because of your wheel rate ratio (from the strano bar thread). You probably know all of this already but here goes... With the stock a-arms and a 2.25" front drop, your front roll center is probably at ground level or maybe even lower. So you need a lot of front wheel rate to counteract the large roll moment.

Plus the roll axis ends up at a very high angle with front super low and the back high (I thought I read that your watts was at the top hole). That makes the car roll like a table with short leg. In a left hander, the RF goes down, the LR goes up and the other two corners don't move much.

I think you may be trying to fine tune a set up that may need some re-thinking.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that. But sometimes a different perspective can help.

 

[Whiskey11]

The reason I ask is because of your wheel rate ratio (from the strano bar thread). You probably know all of this already but here goes... With the stock a-arms and a 2.25" front drop, your front roll center is probably at ground level or maybe even lower. So you need a lot of front wheel rate to counteract the large roll moment.

Plus the roll axis ends up at a very high angle with front super low and the back high (I thought I read that your watts was at the top hole). That makes the car roll like a table with short leg. In a left hander, the RF goes down, the LR goes up and the other two corners don't move much.

I think you may be trying to fine tune a set up that may need some re-thinking.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that. But sometimes a different perspective can help.

I never turn down feedback but a I will say that with the RC where it is at, the car exhibits none of the things you describe. The car is balanced and excessively easy to drive fast. This may not be an engineer's ideal setup but it is by far the fastest setup for me and my driving. I have tried other positions with much more push than I like.

 

[Mineral_'01]

Thanks again for the replies guys. While planning out my suspension and purchasing parts, I too was worried about the front RC when lowering and decided to purchase extended ball joints and a bump steer kit. After much more research, I believe correcting front RC is WAY overkill for the occasional track toy. I even bought new revision "D" front control arms to press the extended ball joints into so it would be a bolt and go type swap. Oh well, live and learn.