Help me choose a suspension setup

Norm Peterson

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Last thing I will say on this is, a matrix brace is only a couple hundred bucks, would be even cheaper for you guys as I'm sure you could/would build your own for much less, weld it in and put it on track. Would probably be about the cheapest test of any equipment you've done on a car, and wouldn't you be surprised if everything I've been saying about them is true (which it is). I'm not loosing anything here by you not trying nor do I have anything to gain if you do, other than maybe "I told you so".
Have a great day!
Price isn't the issue either.

We're going 'round and 'round on the difference between adding stiffness (yes, I agree that any of these braces add some amount of stiffness), vs how effective that stiffness actually is. It's not a matter of the presence or absence of these stiffeners, it's about how much stiffness help they actually provide.

You're trying to read "some" as being the "all" in "all or nothing" when the structural reality is that the "some" is just some small amount.


Norm
 

JJ427R

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I'm not playing a word game with you, I've tapped out on this thread. Goodbye.
 

Norm Peterson

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More for Pentalab's benefit . . .

Actually, I have added supplemental stiffness to a different car, and I've done other modifications that improved that car's existing stiffness without adding any supplemental steel. I've even driven a car before and after repairing a cracked weld that SERIOUSLY COMPROMISED its OE torsional stiffness. So yes, I actually do have some A-B experience with different levels of chassis stiffness in the same car.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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We offered to have a comprehensive test done and pay for it. And it doesn't have to be Vorshlag, I'd just as soon have an independent racer try it and give an unbiased opinion. I'm even up to letting you do it Norm, but I'm not sure at this point you could even do it objectively.
If by 'objectively' you mean that I'd have to forget everything I've ever learned on the engineering side, the answer would be 'no'. You'd be asking for the impossible. Even the 16 year old me wouldn't have jumped straight to a conclusion of reduced roll happening because a small amount of chassis stiffness was added.


You have to realize I have nothing to gain by sharing the info I have. I'm not a business making money on this, nor am I racer trying to get every ounce of time out of my car. I'm only an HPDE guy giving my honest opinion on what I feel these items did for me, same as you giving yours. People can do with it what they want.
There's no money in it for me either. But my honest opinions aren't shot-from-the-hip in nature; they'll have been sanity-checked and sometimes researched first just like engineering problems assigned to me in real day jobs used to be. And you're getting all that background work for free . . .


Norm
 

JJ427R

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Norm you are like a vortex that keeps pulling me in.... since you like stats so much here you go. Happy reading!!! Some reason I have tabs between times and sessions but this page pulls them together sorry....

Here are the stats on my car. Everything on my car was the same until 2018 when I added the Matrix Brace, Jacking Rails, and MMD hood vents.
Below that are my lap times at BIR from 2014-2018.

2010 Roush 427r 2.49 pulley 9lbs boost. JDM Engineering Tune
Tires: Mickey Thompson Street Comp 275/35/20 all 4 corners
Brakes: 4 Piston StopTech on front , stock calipers on rear.
Rotors: Frozen Rotors Cryo Slotted on front, Roush Slotted rear
Pads: Ferodo Racing DS2500 pads on both Front and Rear
Cooling: Kenny Brown/Fluidyne Triple flow triple pass, both Radiator and Heat Exchanger/w dual fans Ford Racing Radiator fan

Each day was a dual track day, 2 sessions in am on 2.5 mile short track, then 4 sessions on 3.1 mile Donneybrooke track I'm only posing short track times for now. My trans also starts to overheat as day goes on so times get slower, so I'll stick to early sessions.
Also notice all days listed are in mid to late September so similar climate/temps. etc....

9/22/2014
Session 1
Lap 1 2:14
Lap 2 2:11
Lap3 2:08
Lap4 2:11
Lap 5 2:08
Lap 6
Lap 7
Lap 8
Lap 9
Lap 10

Session 2
2:04
2:05
2:06
2:03
2:01
2:01
2:04
2:03
2:03
2:02

9/28/2015
Session 1
Lap 1 2:07
Lap 2 2:06
Lap3 2:04
Lap4 2:05
Lap 5 2:04
Lap 6 2:08
Lap 7 2:06
Lap 8 2:05
Lap 9 2:02
Lap 10 2:04

Session 2
2:07
2:06
2:04
2:04
2:05
2:08
2:06
2:05
2:02
2:04

9/27/2016
Session 1
Lap 1 Camera
Lap 2 Issue
Lap3 did not record
Lap4
Lap 5
Lap 6
Lap 7
Lap 8
Lap 9

Session 2
2:06
2:04
2:07
2:05
2:03
2:02
2:27 caution lap
2:07
2:04

9/11/17
Session 1
Lap 1 2:08
Lap 2 2:03
Lap3 2:02
Lap4 2:05
Lap 5 2:04
Lap 6 2:01
Lap 7 2:02
Lap 8 2:04
Lap 9 2:00
Lap 10 2:00

Session 2
2:04
2:02
2:04
2:01
2:00
2:04
2:03

Here is where Matrix Brace and Jacking Rails were added. Note 2 second drop in times compared to the years before.
9/10/18
Session 1 Session 2
Lap 1 2:04
Lap 2 1:59
Lap3 2:00
Lap4 1:59
Lap 5 1:58
Lap 6 2:00
Lap 7 1:59
Lap 8 2:01

Session 2
2:10
2:03
1:59
1:59
1:58
1:59
1:58
1:58
2:00
1:58
1:58
2:03
1:59

I'm not posting my Road America times but the results are very similar, gained 2-3 seconds a lap at RA after the Matrix brace as well.
 
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Racer47

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Just give it up. You seem like a nice guy but this isn't helping. There is no technical reason why jacking rails and a rear brace are going to improve lap times by 2 seconds.

Your Road America times are 3 minutes. That's average at best. You could potentially pick up 15 seconds. So 2 seconds variance is nothing on a 3 minute lap at RA. Your lap times above vary by 5 seconds a session. That's not repeatable data.

No one is going to waste precious track time testing something that isn't technically correct. You can do it yourself if you want. Loosen up all the mounting bolts and see what happens. Or better yet have someone else randomly tighten and loosen the mounts. Then you drive it in a completely blind test.

Or if you want actual data, strain gauge the braces and measure the actual load it is seeing.
 

JJ427R

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Just give it up. You seem like a nice guy but this isn't helping. There is no technical reason why jacking rails and a rear brace are going to improve lap times by 2 seconds.

Your Road America times are 3 minutes. That's average at best. You could potentially pick up 15 seconds. So 2 seconds variance is nothing on a 3 minute lap at RA. Your lap times above vary by 5 seconds a session. That's not repeatable data.

No one is going to waste precious track time testing something that isn't technically correct. You can do it yourself if you want. Loosen up all the mounting bolts and see what happens. Or better yet have someone else randomly tighten and loosen the mounts. Then you drive it in a completely blind test.

Or if you want actual data, strain gauge the braces and measure the actual load it is seeing.
They are welded in not bolted. Appreciate your opinion. 3:00 in a streetcar at RA is not a bad time either. This year I ran 2:57-2:58
Also Matrix brace is not in the rear, it's mounted under the center of the car.
Note Kenny references once welded the car will become very rigid.
 
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Racer47

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2:20s is really fast
2:30s still fast
2:40s respectable
2:50s average
3:00+ kinda slow
IMHO for times at elkhart

Car parts makers will make anything that sells, whether it works or not is irrelevant. For most of these guys, all that matters is profit or no profit.

Strain gauge test is still an option.
 

JJ427R

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2:20s is really fast
2:30s still fast
2:40s respectable
2:50s average
3:00+ kinda slow
IMHO for times at elkhart

Car parts makers will make anything that sells, whether it works or not is irrelevant. For most of these guys, all that matters is profit or no profit.

Strain gauge test is still an option.
Yes those times are fast for a race car, this is a street car that is driven to the track for HPDE days, not a trailered race car. It's on street tires, not slicks. Everyone I speak to at RA says 3:00 is very respectable for a street car. Also remember I'm in wheelchair driving one handed with hand controls, gimme a little break here will ya...
 

Norm Peterson

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Norm you are like a vortex that keeps pulling me in.... since you like stats so much here you go. Happy reading!!! Some reason I have tabs between times and sessions but this page pulls them together sorry....
Thanks for the data. I'm having no problem with the formatting, basically copying it to Word and from there into Excel (text to columns as necessary) for analysis.

The big thing that jumped out at me right away was how much more consistent your lap times were with the bracing - and how much better that consistency got in the second session with the bracing if the 2:03's are dropped. Great sessions, and that's the driver confidence thing talking. And which makes it really hard to say that confidence played no role in getting the lap times to drop. FWIW, I did not include any of the out laps or the caution lap from consideration, and I think that both of the 2:03's in the second session with the bracing are a little suspect as well (traffic?).


I may take this a little further . . .


Norm
 

JJ427R

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Yes I believe the slower laps were generally when I was in traffic. At one point I slowed quite a bit as my feet came unstrapped and left foot slid under my brake pedal. I have to bungie my feet in place just for that reason. Learned that my very first day when I went into a corner and couldn't push on my brake, that was a ah ha moment, pretty much freaked my instructor out too.
 

Norm Peterson

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I know it'd be a lot more work, but it is possible to determine lap times from video to closer than the nearest whole second using a frame by frame approach and knowing the video frame rate. That last session suggests that you can put something like 2/3 of your lap times into about a second and a half (and not shown here, but about half of your times into the same second) . . . absent traffic or similar issue. IOW, you've got the standard deviation approaching the resolution level of your current time reporting. And it's trending downward, where without the bracing the standard deviation was quite a bit bigger and holding much closer to constant (i.e. consistency remained significantly more variable). You should look forward to what the next time out could bring here.

Series 1 is without the bracing. Series 2 is with it.

jj stdev.jpg


Norm
 

Racer47

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gimme a little break here will ya...

I'm impressed with what you are doing. Take credit for your lap time improvements as a better driver not because of some unneeded brace.

Plus, my point may have not been clear. You are not overly stressing the car, stockish overall car, stockish spring rates, ave grip tires, ave lap times, etc. Many cars are going much faster without a matrix brace. If I thought I would be faster with it, I'd have it.

If you went to cruise for a cause, you would have seen that I was the fastest car at the high speed autox, fastest overall out of 45 cars, not some class of 3 cars. I was also the fastest by a ton at Dells Raceway Park. This didn't come easy. I've been working on that car for years and have been steadily gaining speed. I still drive it everywhere, never been on a trailer, full interior, AC, etc.....but no matrix brace.

I do have steeda jacking rails because they are convenient not because they stiffen the car. I also added the lower A-arm brace and I'm not sure that even does anything. But it is at the highest loading point of the front suspension. So imho if anything were to help, it would be that.

And it's trending downward.....

To me this says that the lower std deviation is due to better driving and that is also where any lap time improvements would have come from. I still see no reason to attribute anything to any bracing.
 

Norm Peterson

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There is a correlation between a car's subjective "feel" and the driver's confidence in it, and that's at least part of where the better driving is coming from. jj's confidence took a significant jump after the braces were added, even comparing the first session from the first day with the brace against the later session from the previous day without it (which de-emphasizes the improvement).


Norm
 
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JJ427R

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That is some good info there Norm and thanks for that. Interesting to see and I do know that I'm getting faster as I get more confident every time on the track.

I have to say that I'm still amazed by how many people are just dismissing how much difference this Matrix brace made in the feel of my car. Everyone says it's stiff enough already, well I am saying the car gets much stiffer with one of these, and Pentalab stated the same thing after he installed his, so we are not just blowing smoke up peoples asses so to speak.

I do believe that Norm's graph very much shows that as well, coincidently that is a pretty large change all at once in my driving from the previous 5 years. Did my driving really change that much that one track day, or was it really contributed to this Matrix brace?? Really wish there was some way we could determine that. My own personal opinion from day one has been the brace, but I'm glad everyone just thinks it's me getting better.

As Racer47 stated "If I though I would be faster I'd have it" I cannot count the number of people that have said that now, and most of them have never even tried it and never will, they are just assuming it does nothing, including you Norm as you have only done the number crunching on it. I'm not able to express enough how wrong you all are, and as I said earlier I'll go to my grave with that opinion, that is how strongly I feel about it.

Last thing, I just remembered my mechanic is into drifting and now entering those events in the upper Midwest. When he installed this in my car, he had driven it before and after, and he also could not believe how much of a difference it made in the feel of the car, so he has now built and added similar bracing in his drift car.

You all have a great day!
 

Racer47

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As Racer47 stated "If I though I would be faster I'd have it" I cannot count the number of people that have said that now......

I cannot count the number of amateur racers who think they know how to go fast based on some crap theory. Those guys never win. They never get fast. They never move up the ranks. All because they don't understand what is important and what is not.

I've set track records, won races, won championships in SCCA GT1, IMSA GTO and Super Late Models. I know what I'm doing. Vorshlag has built dozens of fast cars, set track records, has won and is still winning. Including building and racing S197 cars. They know what they are doing and are kind enough to tell us how they did it.

You act as if we are the closed minded people here. You just can't see, or admit to, the truth. When you start running 2:15 laps at Elkhart or at least understand how it feels to really run a car consistently at its limits, maybe I'll take your opinions more seriously. But so far you have proven nothing.
 

Pentalab

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The KB matrix brace added to the KB jacking rail is one thing, but the BMR version is even stronger...(+ a lot heavier). The BMR version is all one unit, and terminates at the back end..at the rear lower control arm mount.

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=191&superpro=0 I'll see if I can find out the weight of each of the 2 x SFC assy's. I'd like to know.... for my own curiosity.
 

Norm Peterson

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... I cannot count the number of people that have said that now, and most of them have never even tried it and never will, they are just assuming it does nothing, including you Norm as you have only done the number crunching on it.
I've never said they do nothing. Only that the vast majority of what they do do is on the driver confidence side. That still leaves a finite (if tiny) amount as basic chassis improvement.

Try to keep in mind that I actually do have some experience concerning the effects of additional or different stiffnesses on the same car. That it wasn't on my '08 GT is mostly irrelevant because the structural principles involved remain the same. Plus there's those S197 measurements that I did make.

If I was ever going to add any supplemental bracing - which I will repeat once more is something that I've done before - it's going to only happen after I feel that I'll be able to benefit from it, and only after I've done at least a review of load paths to get an idea of how much help it's going to be worth.

What I wouldn't do is throw some bracing at my car just hoping for the best. I didn't choose the wheels, tires, and suspension mods to date that way, and this wouldn't be any different.

Right now, I think the bracing I'd be most likely to add would be a home-grown version of the Boss 302/Laguna Seca X-brace (behind the rear seat). But even that's only a remote possibility at this stage even though I could probably weld something together and fit it up in an afternoon.


Norm
 
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