Gen 3 Coyote in 05-09 GT

[2008_ScarlettGT]

I’ve read the posts I could find about swapping in a Coyote to the 05-09 and I see the vast majority are using a mixture of gen1, gen2 and gen 3 or simply going with a gen 1 engine completely. I understand this is mainly to do with the wiring. My question is, what would I need for a gen 3 swap to make my gages and accessories work like they would if I did a gen 1. I like in Pa where they do emissions testing annually, but since I put less than 5k miles a year on the car it would be exempted from the emissions testing. Thanks for any help you guys can provide!

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

This might be your best option for a Gen 3 swap into an 05-09 S197:

https://lmr.com/item/M6017M50B/mustang-coyote-controls-pack-ford-racing-18-m-6017-50b

 

[Juice]

It is not the wiring, any gen wiring will be about the same difficulty. I went with Gen1 because the 11-14 pcm will work with the existing 05-09 instrument cluster.
As for passing emissions, I have been unable to get 3 monitors to complete. (Cat & O2 mnitors) they just will not run. Do not throw codes, just stay incomplete.
How you will go about your swap is totally up to you. The PBH swap harness seems to be the way most do it. I repinned my body connector.
You can make gen 2 and 3 work, but most of those swaps guys put the entire interior in from a coyote doner. Way too much work IMO.
Where about in PA are you?

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

Thanks for the replies! I did see the control pack but it mentions it doesn’t retain accessories and eliminates emissions completely. I would like to retain the accessories and even though emissions isn’t a deal breaker, I’d prefer to have it working if possible.

I’ve seen Matt James videos on YouTube and I believe he did something similar to what you’re referring to Juice. That looked like a labor of love for certain but he had fantastic results! The wiring I was referring to was that of the speedometer and cluster gages. I believe I read somewhere that the first gen is a 3 connector to the pcm as is mine, but the 3rd gen is only two and incorporated the body harness into them. Please forgive me if that’s wrong, but I’m still early in the process and just trying to figure out which way I should go.

I’ve seen people putting second gen heads on first gen blocks and using the cams and timing components from the first gen as well so they can use the first gen pcm. Is there a benefit of using a second gen head over the first gen?

Im from the York area of PA

 

[Juice]

Thanks for the replies! I did see the control pack but it mentions it doesn’t retain accessories and eliminates emissions completely. I would like to retain the accessories and even though emissions isn’t a deal breaker, I’d prefer to have it working if possible.

I’ve seen Matt James videos on YouTube and I believe he did something similar to what you’re referring to Juice. That looked like a labor of love for certain but he had fantastic results! The wiring I was referring to was that of the speedometer and cluster gages. I believe I read somewhere that the first gen is a 3 connector to the pcm as is mine, but the 3rd gen is only two and incorporated the body harness into them. Please forgive me if that’s wrong, but I’m still early in the process and just trying to figure out which way I should go.

I’ve seen people putting second gen heads on first gen blocks and using the cams and timing components from the first gen as well so they can use the first gen pcm. Is there a benefit of using a second gen head over the first gen?

Im from the York area of PA

The only connection the PCM has to the cluster is through the CAN bus. So the speedo/tach works off the Gen1 pcm over the CAN . Starting with Gen2, atleast the speedometer will not work. Not 100% on what else.

Not sure what accessories you are talking about with the control pack. A/C works just fine. Power steering, I ended up with an EPAS swap. Ran hydraulic steering at first, with a bracket I made to mount the PS pump, but after blowing out the second PS pump on track (HPDE car) in went the EPAS.

I have retained all emissions components as at the time, this was my daily driver. Thanks to COVID, I now work from home. All or our cars are exempt now lol. And passing smog is no longer a priority, but I still am tweaking to get my monitors to complete, just because.... I have 5 monitors complete, 3 incomplete.

The control pack is actually capable of running all the obd tests, the monitors are there, but have to be enabled via tuning. Control pack is also setup for return style fuel system, Im running the stock V6 returnless system. Tuning is a must for this swap, I use SCT ProRacer.

I'm not far from you, in Oxford.

One thing I forgot to mention, ABS. I don't know what it would take to make 05-09 abs work w/coyote. My car does not have ABS.

 

[Suecra]

The main things to note are that gen 3 is a little more complex, expensive, and time consuming. Theres more to gen 3s than a gen 1/gen 2. Gen 1s tend to be the easiest due to the fact that they did not come with certain things like IMRC(which do not fit in 05-14 body), so tuning is slightly easier for that. Also gen 1 cars were still using some analog signals but 2015 was a completely different ECU and things are different, and for that reason there tends to be more parameters to read on a gen 2/gen3. Gen 3s you can't use anything other than a 10r80 unless your putting in a stick, there is a lack of aftermarket support for it. Personally all in all, your gonna get the best experience with a gen 2 in my opinion, youll still get plenty of power, and you will eliminate some complexity and cost in the swap. The only reason I would bother doing a gen 1 for any reason is if you simply have an entire donor car and you can swap over things like the ecu/bcm/harnesses since they are different from 2015+ setups. Benefits of gen 1 (non control pack swap) is being able to still utilize ABS, air bags in some instances, still being able to pass emissions, etc.

No matter what direction you go, I recommend upgrading to the EPAS steering rack, and having your fuel system situated beforehand because you'll never be able to get it tuned right or have it run right if the fuel system is tweaked out.

 

[Juice]

@Suecra, not sure why you would say Gen2 is the best option. Gen 1 is practically plug&play except for the wiring of the PCM.
Fuel system - mine is untouched as came from Ford. The pcm runs it stock returnless. The V6 and GT use the same pump, and it is plenty for a stock coyote @400 rwhp. The few extra hp of the gen 2 is not worth the extra work needed IMO.

 

[dhrmx5]

Just an FYI for those of you running a swap, the Ford ABS system will run on a stand alone basis without canbus interface. We have done several racecars where we gut the car of wiring and then just run on control pack. We strip the ABS matched pairs out of the main harness and install them on the car. You end up with the 8 sensor wires and 1 ground, 1 battery hot, and 1 that has to come on with key/switch to energize. You will lose the ability to have traction control and diagnostics, but it will work fine.

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

Quick question on the power steering rack. I was just under the car yesterday looking around and everything look mint underneath. Is the electric rack actually better than the hydraulic and is it actually needed for the swap? The car has 60k miles on it and it was taken care of very well before I purchased it.

Also, not really swap related but I took it to the track last night to get a baseline run of what it does before the swap. I did 2 runs and managed a 13.8 @ 103 with a 2.1 60 foot. I didn’t launch it hard (obviously) because my brother was nervous about me breaking an hour away from home, so I basically pulled off the line around 1500 rpm and I ran 3rd out til the end of track (3.55 gear) Here is the slip. I’m car 329. The other car was a 2014ish Camaro SS.

 

[Juice]

Quick question on the power steering rack. I was just under the car yesterday looking around and everything look mint underneath. Is the electric rack actually better than the hydraulic and is it actually needed for the swap? The car has 60k miles on it and it was taken care of very well before I purchased it.

Also, not really swap related but I took it to the track last night to get a baseline run of what it does before the swap. I did 2 runs and managed a 13.8 @ 103 with a 2.1 60 foot. I didn’t launch it hard (obviously) because my brother was nervous about me breaking an hour away from home, so I basically pulled off the line around 1500 rpm and I ran 3rd out til the end of track (3.55 gear) Here is the slip. I’m car 329. The other car was a 2014ish Camaro SS.

View attachment 84230

EPAS needed? No, not needed. But you have to mount your PS pump. Available kits eliminate the AC compressor, from what I remember. That is why I made a bracket for mine, just to find out the pump cannot handle high rpms. Searched online, corvettes use the same saginaw 2 pump, and those guys burn them up on track.

So, your decision:
AC or PS,
OR,
EPAS and AC

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

EPAS needed? No, not needed. But you have to mount your PS pump. Available kits eliminate the AC compressor, from what I remember. That is why I made a bracket for mine, just to find out the pump cannot handle high rpms. Searched online, corvettes use the same saginaw 2 pump, and those guys burn them up on track.

So, your decision:
AC or PS,
OR,
EPAS and AC

Oh ok. I was under the impression that the bracket kits allowed you to maintain ALL accessories, including AC. Air conditioning is non negotiable for me. I’ll have to look into this further. I know you said you had issues on the track with the hydraulic steering and that was one of the main reasons you upgraded to the EPAS. How do you like the EPAS compared to hydraulic?

 

[Juice]

EPAS feel takes some getting used to, some road feel is lost IMO.
It simplifies working on the car drastically. No pump or hoses to deal with. Since you need the battery harness for the trans anyway, EPAS is practically plug&play. I only had to splice the two CAN wires.
I got a cross memeber from a junkyard for $45. For the third mounting bolt for the epas. Some say the third bolt isnt needed. But I wanted it, and it was cheap.

 

[whitmanink]

had to chime in,, denver pa here


this is why i went with the "build up the 3v" and turbo it,
pa emissions suck,,,, and as of now i have a " work around" for getting stickers , but that could dry up so i was trying to make it emissions legal just in case ,,
so the 5.0 wasnt an option,, ,, not for the price it would take to get it road legal,,

the cheapest co-part wrecked 5.0 i seen worth bidding on where the motor isnt trashed or cracked was going for around 8k ,, thats not including fees and shipping.. or all the hours of labor swapping and seeing what isnt good and still needs to be bought ..

at this point im ok with making a 550ish rwhp car,, than save up for a better tranny or build mine up , ,,than going for 620+ish.. ,, id be more than happy there.

 

[whitmanink]

i thought the exemption was for newer cars (2020-2022) if u put less than 5,000 miles a yr? same with classic or antique ?

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

i thought the exemption was for newer cars (2020-2022) if u put less than 5,000 miles a yr? same with classic or antique ?

This is my understanding. If I don’t exceed 5k a year then it is emissions exempt. Same as the classic and antique tags. I don’t believe there’s a mileage limit per se on the classic tag, but antique has quite a few limitations. I will probably not exceed the 5k a year, but I would like to keep it emissions compliant if I can.

 

[Suecra]

@Suecra, not sure why you would say Gen2 is the best option. Gen 1 is practically plug&play except for the wiring of the PCM.
Fuel system - mine is untouched as came from Ford. The pcm runs it stock returnless. The V6 and GT use the same pump, and it is plenty for a stock coyote @400 rwhp. The few extra hp of the gen 2 is not worth the extra work needed IMO.

In my opinion your getting a stronger, higher performance motor out of a gen 2 than a gen 1, more capability out of it.

 

[mattjames]

If you want your gages and AC to work seamlessly, use a Gen 1 PCM, easiest to adapt. If you want the strength of a gen 2 or 3, you can do a 3-2-1 setup, or just throw Boss rods in the gen 1

Can also vouche that the ABS system works with no issues or extra work

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

If you want your gages and AC to work seamlessly, use a Gen 1 PCM, easiest to adapt. If you want the strength of a gen 2 or 3, you can do a 3-2-1 setup, or just throw Boss rods in the gen 1

Can also vouche that the ABS system works with no issues or extra work

First off, thank you for an awesome YouTube series on the swap. From the research I have done to this point, I’m thinking that a gen 2 engine with gen 1 timing components is the way I’m leaning. How do you like the 3650 paired with the coyote? My car has 3.55 rear gears and the trans shifts fine so I may not do the mt82. The one in the 2013 I used to have constantly locked me out of 3rd gear and I don’t have any issues with my current 3650.

 

[mattjames]

First off, thank you for an awesome YouTube series on the swap. From the research I have done to this point, I’m thinking that a gen 2 engine with gen 1 timing components is the way I’m leaning. How do you like the 3650 paired with the coyote? My car has 3.55 rear gears and the trans shifts fine so I may not do the mt82. The one in the 2013 I used to have constantly locked me out of 3rd gear and I don’t have any issues with my current 3650.

I put 4.10s in it before ever taking it down the road when the swap was done. It works well with the 3650

 

[2008_ScarlettGT]

I put 4.10s in it before ever taking it down the road when the swap was done. It works well with the 3650

This may be in my future as well due to revving the Coyote higher and the gearing I currently have.

Another question as I think I am going to buy a gen 3 shortblock to go with the gen1 goodies I recently picked up….I noticed the gen 3 block is a larger bore than the previous generations. As long as I run a gen 1 head gasket this will still be ok right?