Brake Bleed Question

[RolloTomassi]

Hey guys,

I'm curious. When you go to the track (road course), what is your preferred method of bleeding the brakes?

Is there any tips/tricks to doing so quickly and easily?

I often find the task the most burdensome part of tracking the car. Admittedly I typically only do so once for (5) 20min sessions and I know it should be more frequent.

This is of course, on jack stands, with hand tools (no air).

Cheers!

 

[Vapour Trails]

Speed Bleeders make it a quick and easy job, especially if you have an assistant. With a brake pumper in the car I can complete the job in about 20-25 minutes.

They cost about $12 a pair, the same bleeders work for the front and rear.

http://www.russellperformance.com/

 

[pcdrj]

Do you really need to bleed at the track? I've got speed bleeders and a Motive pump but really haven't needed to bleed at the track. What fluid are you running? SS lines?

 

[Sleeper_08]

Do you really need to bleed at the track? I've got speed bleeders and a Motive pump but really haven't needed to bleed at the track. What fluid are you running? SS lines?

You are also running GT500 front brakes which I think make a big difference.

After two full seasons I've never felt the need to bleed my brakes at the track. I am running the GT500 brakes with Quantum brake ducts. My fluid is ATE Super Blue/Amber which I flush completely at the start of each season.

 

[TheKurgan]

IMO speed bleeders are dangerous and I don't think you need to bleed at the track anyway. I have the same setup as Sleeper there. I honestly don't feel like I need any more braking power.

 

[DusterRT]

IMO speed bleeders are dangerous

How's that?

 

[RolloTomassi]

Typically I bleed before going to the track, and after the track as that's when the bubbles seem to emerge.

Do you guys reverse bleed?

I was wondering more what type of bleeder you guys prefer. I know a company called Motive has some good units http://www.motiveproducts.com/ but what else?

I don't have GT500 brakes. I have OEM Calipers with SS lines, Motul 660 fluid, Powerslot rotors and Hawk pads.

I have heard horror stories about speed bleeder valves leaking when unattended.

I run brake ducting which keeps the fronts more or less cool. But just for the sake of efficiency and safety was hoping to come up with an easier way to get the task done.

 

[DusterRT]

I use Earl's bleeders, which seem to have a more robust/simple design versus the kind with the tiny internal check ball and spring. I do nothing special whatsoever..just open the bleeder, top off the fluid, pump the pedal, close the bleeder, repeat.

 

[TheKurgan]

I use Earl's bleeders, which seem to have a more robust/simple design versus the kind with the tiny internal check ball and spring. I do nothing special whatsoever..just open the bleeder, top off the fluid, pump the pedal, close the bleeder, repeat.

Hmm haven't seen those before now. How long have you been using the Earl's ? I might give those a shot, but the normal ones would go out and shoot brake fluid everywhere.

 

[DusterRT]

Hmm haven't seen those before now. How long have you been using the Earl's ? I might give those a shot, but the normal ones would go out and shoot brake fluid everywhere.

Not a terribly long time, but it has been a little over a year now...about 6 track days and daily driving almost entirely in between. I've bled them 6-7 times since installing, so far so good. I don't really see how they could fail, short of a material defect or stripping threads. Even if the spring broke, they would at least still seal when closed.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

+1. I used the Earl's on the OE calipers, and have the Russel design on my Brembos, and I can't see how either would fail in the manner you describe. The only real difference between them is how the spring is applied...

The Earls use a plunger, with a cone seat, tensioned by an external spring. When you tighten the bleeder screw down, the screws force the plunger firmly against the caliper casting, sealing the unit up. With the bleeder loosened, the spring is the only thing holding the plunger/seat against the caliper, which allows the fluid out for bleeding, but the spring seals the seat up on the release stroke of the pedal, preventing air from being sucked back into the caliper.

The Russel design is actually simpler, since the seat is part of the bleeder screw already. Above the tapered seat, there is a hole in the bleeder, that is sealed off by a check-ball, which is held in place by a spring, all inside the screw. If the screw is tight, there's no way for the fluid to reach the hole, so no leak. With the screw loose, pressurized fluid will move the check-valve, and escape (pedal being depressed), but on the return stroke of the pedal, the spring forces the check-ball to close the path, preventing air from getting sucked in.

Both designs are simple, easy to use, and essentially foolproof, with no complicated sealing mechanism to fail and allow the fluid to gush out as you describe. The only way for that to happen is to leave the bleeder loose. With a stock bleeder, if it's loose, it'll leak as well.

With stock calipers I had to bleed once or twice a day, depending on the amount of track time I was running, as well as the amount of abuse I put the brakes through. With the Brembos, though, I'm not having to bleed all that often. Before each track day, sure, of course, but very rarely around the lunchtime break, like I used to.

Rollo: I use the speed bleeders and a simple catch-can for the fluid. Crack the bleeder open, attach the hose, give the pedal 4-5 full strokes, close the bleeder, top off the fluid, then repeat at each corner. Done. It takes longer to type it than it does to bleed one caliper.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

+1 for speed bleeders. I use them on both my Mustang and C5. Never had a leaking issue with them. Great quality product! You can simply pump the brake pedal yourself or you can purchase a product like this if you want to be at the caliper when you do each brake to see the fluid, etc. Just make sure your check your brake fluid reservoir as you bleed your brakes and add fluid as needed.

 

[TheKurgan]

+1. I used the Earl's on the OE calipers, and have the Russel design on my Brembos, and I can't see how either would fail in the manner you describe. The only real difference between them is how the spring is applied...

The Earls use a plunger, with a cone seat, tensioned by an external spring. When you tighten the bleeder screw down, the screws force the plunger firmly against the caliper casting, sealing the unit up. With the bleeder loosened, the spring is the only thing holding the plunger/seat against the caliper, which allows the fluid out for bleeding, but the spring seals the seat up on the release stroke of the pedal, preventing air from being sucked back into the caliper.

The Russel design is actually simpler, since the seat is part of the bleeder screw already. Above the tapered seat, there is a hole in the bleeder, that is sealed off by a check-ball, which is held in place by a spring, all inside the screw. If the screw is tight, there's no way for the fluid to reach the hole, so no leak. With the screw loose, pressurized fluid will move the check-valve, and escape (pedal being depressed), but on the return stroke of the pedal, the spring forces the check-ball to close the path, preventing air from getting sucked in.

Both designs are simple, easy to use, and essentially foolproof, with no complicated sealing mechanism to fail and allow the fluid to gush out as you describe. The only way for that to happen is to leave the bleeder loose. With a stock bleeder, if it's loose, it'll leak as well.

With stock calipers I had to bleed once or twice a day, depending on the amount of track time I was running, as well as the amount of abuse I put the brakes through. With the Brembos, though, I'm not having to bleed all that often. Before each track day, sure, of course, but very rarely around the lunchtime break, like I used to.

Rollo: I use the speed bleeders and a simple catch-can for the fluid. Crack the bleeder open, attach the hose, give the pedal 4-5 full strokes, close the bleeder, top off the fluid, then repeat at each corner. Done. It takes longer to type it than it does to bleed one caliper.

I can promise you that 2 failed on me and shot fluid out without them being loose or anything. There's no debating that for me. If you like, I can send one of them to you for inspection.

+1 for speed bleeders. I use them on both my Mustang and C5. Never had a leaking issue with them. Great quality product! You can simply pump the brake pedal yourself or you can purchase a product like this if you want to be at the caliper when you do each brake to see the fluid, etc. Just make sure your check your brake fluid reservoir as you bleed your brakes and add fluid as needed.

I like the vacuum pump at the caliper idea. The brakes have always felt better to me when I have someone sitting in the seat pumping and me tightening the valve. This approach seems to be the closest method to that if no one is available to help bleed.

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

Suction pump sucks! I did that, bought it for that sole purpose. Found out that it's easier to suck air than fluid. Let me explain.

To bleed, you need to crack open the valves. This also means that you have loose threads. So, what I found was that when using this pump it was sucking air around/thru the threads and then going into the valve and up the pump, without getting much if any fluid. To fix this, I had to pull out each of my valves and teflon tape them to seal the threads enough for the pump to work. I vowed to never try it again.

And on top of it, since I was still getting a little air in the line even with the tape, I didn't drive the car until I could get a buddy to help me do at least one pedal pump per corner just to make sure I didn't have a little air in the system.

Grab a friend, bribe your neighbor, heck train your dog to do it, but get someone to pump the pedal for you. Or get one of those systems that screws to the master cylinder and pumps fluid. My opinion on this would be to crack your valve, attach a hose that you run above the caliper and then loop back down into a catch can. Now you can push through fluid and on the pedal retract it will suck fluid back down the hose which is above the caliper (gravity works).

 

[TheKurgan]

Suction pump sucks! I did that, bought it for that sole purpose. Found out that it's easier to suck air than fluid. Let me explain.

To bleed, you need to crack open the valves. This also means that you have loose threads. So, what I found was that when using this pump it was sucking air around/thru the threads and then going into the valve and up the pump, without getting much if any fluid. To fix this, I had to pull out each of my valves and teflon tape them to seal the threads enough for the pump to work. I vowed to never try it again.

And on top of it, since I was still getting a little air in the line even with the tape, I didn't drive the car until I could get a buddy to help me do at least one pedal pump per corner just to make sure I didn't have a little air in the system.

Grab a friend, bribe your neighbor, heck train your dog to do it, but get someone to pump the pedal for you. Or get one of those systems that screws to the master cylinder and pumps fluid. My opinion on this would be to crack your valve, attach a hose that you run above the caliper and then loop back down into a catch can. Now you can push through fluid and on the pedal retract it will suck fluid back down the hose which is above the caliper (gravity works).

What tip were you using to connect to the bleed valve with ? A rubber one that goes over the whole valve or were you using one of the plastic tapered ones that sticks into the end of the valve ?

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

What tip were you using to connect to the bleed valve with ? A rubber one that goes over the whole valve or were you using one of the plastic tapered ones that sticks into the end of the valve ?

I used the hoses that it came with and it fit over the nipple end on the bleed valve.

 

[RolloTomassi]

Rollo: I use the speed bleeders and a simple catch-can for the fluid. Crack the bleeder open, attach the hose, give the pedal 4-5 full strokes, close the bleeder, top off the fluid, then repeat at each corner. Done. It takes longer to type it than it does to bleed one caliper.

Sounds like speed bleeders turn it into an easy one man job.

So just order 4 of these I'm assuming?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RUS-639560/

-Rollo

 

[Sleeper_08]

With the Brembos, though, I'm not having to bleed all that often. Before each track day, sure, of course, but very rarely around the lunchtime break, like I used to.

When you bleed the Brembos at the track do you bleed both the inner and outer screw and if so in what sequence?

 

[Kaldar142]

Sleeper,
To the best of my understanding you do want to bleed both and you will want to start with the most outer one.


Its nice having a BBK with the right setup at the track... makes all the difference IMO.

In my Z06 i was having CONSTANT brake issues, the car is too fast (or maybe i'm too fast) for the stock rotors / calipers IMO. Not only was i blowing through pads and rotors, but i was bleeding my brakes every time i changed my pads, which was as much as twice a weekend..... I've boiled ATE super blue and motul RBF600... Now i run Castrol SRF with no issues, but at $80 it better be the shit. LOL

Now I run SS lines, carbotech XP12/10, 2 piece rotors, SRF & stock calipers.

This combo worked great but the pads only last me 3 days until they are down to the backing plates. Not to mention i've completely melted the dust boots, destroyed the caliper pistons and the paint has bubbled off the calipers in quite a few areas. O_O

On the mustang i run Stoptech ST40 with DTC 70 / 60, 2 piece rotors, SS lines, castrol SRF and have no issues with it, granted its not as fast as the Z06 though. Neither cars have brake cooling ducts, i KNOW for a fact i would greatly benefit from the use of ducts, i'm so tired of destroying brakes lol

I have no personal experience with speed bleeders, but i've been steered away from them by quite a few reputable sources. I always have a few people with me anyways, so no need for them.

 

[Captain_Stangin']

I've been warned about Speed Bleeders before, but I still use them. Detractors claim that there's a higher chance of air being introduced into the system with the speed bleeders, so I try to minimize that chance by keeping the bleed hose and bottle higher than the caliper. This ensures that there's always some brake fluid in the hose covering the bleed screw, and greatly reduces the chance of any air entering, IMHO.