Massive Speed Panhard Bar

SoundGuyDave

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First off, I wouldn't trust ANY part advertised for "street car kills!" Simple mantra around these parts is: "what ails your car? Identify the deficiency, and then replace parts." Are you finding that you have worse launches in left-hand-turn drag strips?:wtf1: Okay then, you may be a candidate for some hardware.


Seriously, though, a PHB replacement will garner you some benefits, but they are only really going to be noticeable in certain circumstances. ANY manufacturer that claims "geometry corrected" pieces without either offset bushings or relocated suspension mount points is not only full of shit, but also completely untrustworthy. The PHB defines the roll center in the rear, and without knowing the position of the rear axle relative to the chassis, there is ABSOLUTELY no way they can claim correction of the PHB mount.

Long story short: if you've never heard of them in a corner-carver's forum, there's probably a good reason for it... We're a crowd that understands the concept of roll-oversteer, it's causes, and ways to correct, and as a result, just slapping an aggressive name on a piece of sub-mediocre hardware simply won't fly with us. If you can identify axle shift under lateral-load conditions and it's handling artifacts, then it's time to give Maximum Motorsports a call, and order their competition Panhard bar. Until then, carry on...
 

Philostang

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Yeah, but c'mon Dave, I hear if you install the MASSIVE bar your penis will grow an inch or two!

I had the same reaction you did; never heard of them and their advertising simply reeks of bullshit claims meant to impress the super ill-informed.

I did laugh a bit though. "BIG HP cars will tear lesser pieces to shreds." Right, `cause we all know that the panhard takes a direct load from in-line acceleration. Or this one just prior to it "Wont let your factory stamped steel brackets twist or bend." Oh no Dorothy! My factory limp stamped steel brackets are in danger! Don't worry little lady, it's only if you have BIG and MASSIVE power you just have to control.

Then of course, the gauntlet is thrown down (to those ill-equipped to pick it up in the first place), "Dare to compare!" Ok, I'm game, let's do it. In their corner, the MASSIVE bar! (I can smell the testosterone already.) In my corner, I pick the FR500S, a car far more capable than any Mustang they've had their hands on. Apparently the wimpy factory brackets and factory hardware are up to the task in a dedicated race car. Who knew!?!

If this product is in fact any good, it's quality is completely overshadowed by misinformed hype.
 

03fridge

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We all know the advertising hype they're using is horrible and way out in left field...but moving past that.

I was more interested in what your opinions were on the type of rod ends, they're using...6061 aluminum red anodized nylafiber matrix race spherical rod ends – super strength yet metallic contact isolated – NO NOISE! LONG LIFE! NO LUBRICATION NECESSARY!

How would these compare to poly or the UMI roto-joint?
 

SoundGuyDave

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Way OT and I'm sorry but someone wanna explain roll-oversteer to me?

LOL!! Yeah, it's OT, but at least we should be getting SOME hard tech in this thread!

First, another term: Anti-squat. This is a function of the angle of the lower control arms. Put simply, the more angle down from the chassis to the axle, the more anti-squat the car has, which translates to resistance to the rear end dropping under acceleration. Sounds like an awesome thing to have, right? Too much, however, and you get a by-product, roll-oversteer. Picture the rear suspension in your head, viewed from the driver's side. At the bottom of the axle tubes, you have the lower control arms, in this case angled upwards to the left, and at the top of the center section, you have the upper control arm, acting as the third link in the suspension of the car. Under straight-line acceleration, we all know that we get weight transfer to the rear. With the angle on the control arms, this uses that weight transfer to further plant the rear tires. Still awesome, right? Here's where it all goes wrong, though: turns. Keep the same suspension picture in your head, but now instead of applying weight to both the left and right ends of the axle due to chassis weight transfer, we're going to move it FROM the left to the right (left turn)... Relative to the body, the driver's side of the axle will droop, and the passenger's side will rise. Now, due to the angle of the arms, the distance between the front and rear mounting points on the lower control arms will be drastically different from side to side. Under that condition, viewed from above, the axle will be cocked relative to the chassis centerline, causing the rear end to actually steer towards the outside of the corner. In other words, you turn the steering wheel to the left, the front tires turn to the left, and the rear suspension rolls over and turns to the RIGHT. Instant oversteer. Since this oversteer is dependent on a roll condition, however, it gets the moniker "roll-oversteer." This is yet another example of why the drag guys just can't turn a corner to save their lives, but they can hook up a bajillion horsepower. We can't hook up 300 measly horses, but man, can we TURN!!!! Two different setups for two different purposes.

Please note, that EVERY 3-link car exhibits a roll-steer tendency, but proper geometry in the angles of the control arms goes a long way towards minimizing the effect. Too much anti-squat (control arm relocation brackets) will cause roll-oversteer. Too low of a static ride height (super-slam bling springs) will cause roll-understeer, because the axle will pivot the other way, due to the arms being angled BADLY uphill to the axle. Ford got the rear geometry right in stock trim, and it's fine up to around a 1" to 1-1/4" drop, but anything past that will start producing noticable roll-steer effects.

Fridge: Take a look at Maximum Motorsports for a quality, rod-end adjustable PHB. I believe they use Aurora rod ends, which are some of the finest, and they are also maintenance free. Periodically, I use WD40 to just flush all the rod ends on my car, primarily to get rid of any grit that may be in there. That's it. The Max Motorsports bar is (relatively) inexpensive, well made, and RACE PROVEN. There aren't many Mustangs competing in American Iron, Camaro-Mustang Challenge, or SCCA's AS series that don't have Maximum Motorsports parts on them, from Fox bodies, through SN95's and onto our S197. The MASSIVE marketing diatribe looks to me like a bunch of buzz-words strung together...

RED ANODIZED: Yeah, so what? It's dyed metal kids...
Nylafiber Matrix Race: The whole point of a rod end is ZERO deflection, so now you're sandwiching nylon in between the cage and the ball. This is supposed to help how? The rod ends that I use on my car are metal to metal fit, with a VERY thin coating of Teflon (think microns, or millionths of an inch thick) to minimize stiction in the joint. Nylon can and will deform, and is nowhere near as slippery as Teflon.

Compared to poly, it's a world of difference. Please note that when you have the suspension cycle through a turn, you need ARTICULATION, which poly doesn't do so well...

026.jpg


Those are my old ones, and they lasted a bit under a season on track. Note the bushings have spit out the steel sleeves, and the one at the top of the pic has completely shattered.

I have no direct experience with the UMI rod ends, but I would think they would have the same issue with the poly surround. Again, no direct experience. Strictly my opinion, but if you are thinking about different lower control arms, either get rubber bushings (deflection allows compliance with pitch, roll and yaw), or true rod ends.
 

03fridge

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SoundguyDave...I apprecitate your responses. Poly was never an option...I had been looking at and reading quite a few posts about the UMI roto-joints, but after reading about them I'm a tad skeptical. I keep reading if they start making noise just tighten them up or if necessary you can rebuild them. Its nice that they are rebuildable, but makes me wonder how often they need to be rebuilt and how often do I need to tighten them to keep them quiet.

I'm very interested in the rod end bars like you mention but how much nvh am I going to experience. This car is my daily driver. The big reason I'm looking at panhard bars is that I just put 315's on the back and want to center the rear for some additional clearance. With that being said I would love to put a watts link, but just not in the budget at the moment. The car does see spirited driving on the back roads in the Texas Hill Country. I'm also looking to try some "sanctioned" events this year as well.

Again, thanks for your responses and appreciate any advice you might be inclined to share.
 

irishpwr46

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i put this panhard bar on my car. i went out that night and had sex with four different chicks. i owe it all to my massive speed bar
 

Philostang

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I have no direct experience with a panhard with rod ends on both ends. Maybe others can chime in.

However, for about two years of daily driver service (mostly highway) I had one of the early Kenny Brown panhard bars on my car. That bar had a rod end on one end (axle end) and a urethane bushing on the other. I had little to no noticeable increase in NVH, but it made a huge improvement in ride quality (esp. over expansion joints, etc.).

Dave and I have different experiences with our urethane joints. My old J&M lower arms were in pretty good shape at the end of 2 track seasons. Then again, they never had to subdue R-comps, and Dave drives a bit more aggressive than I ever did with these arms on the car.

One thing I've found is that with these sort of split treatments (rod end on one end/bushed other) the rod end side survives for a long time. They just don't take nearly the beating they would if both ends were as unforgiving as rod ends. My KB panhard is off the car now, but the rod end is still very tight. Something to consider.

Best,
-j
 

Grip

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FWIW, I actually have one of these MASSIVE panhards. Can't say I have any issues with it. I suppose it may have made the car a bit more "tossable" but...meh. It's actually a decently built piece. (but how can you really screw up a panhard rod?) Having said that, I wouldn't have bothered with it if I didn't get it for the price I did. I figured it was worth the experiment.

Not so sure I'd judge their products negatively just because they obviously have a crappy marketing guy...(hmm...I should give them a call)
 

jayman33

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I just heard all these comments and had to get one for myself. Before girls used to look at me and laugh, now when I walk in the room I have them all over me. Its almost like sex panther but better, now 75% of the time it works all the time and I saved 15% by switching to geico!!!
Seriously though, stick with a brand that is trustworthy, they've made a name for themselves for a reason. Its like this company is trying to sell you a sex enhancer. "no lubrication", "massive speed", side effects includes: "your car falling apart".
 

california gt

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:wtf1: check out those wild colors

Too bad you have be on your hands and knees to see.
 

Norm Peterson

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↑↑↑ Maybe that's the whole point ???



Grip - screw up a PHB? I can think of at least one way, and if I posted it as a joke somebody reading this thread would probably miss the sarcasm and run with the idea for real.

That piece itself is probably fine. But when the "tech" that ends up in the advertising copy gets that distorted you have to wonder just who it is that they're pitching it to. The people who have a grasp of the tech involved will know it's bogus, and the people who don't know anything at all about it won't understand it anyway no matter what they write.


Norm
 
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Bizzyb0nes

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+1 for UMI making absolutely great products. They have a bushing/spherical combination to fit any persons application, and the stuff held up great.
 

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