2008 ROUSH Stage 3 Build...Take III

[blownGTvert]

Add the 13/14 GT500 exchanger to go with the pump! It's a monster at 4" thick!

 

[AutoXRacer]

As for water/meth, I was going to drill and tap the intake itself. I haven't looked lately but it seems to me I could go just under the blower mounting surface, with a pair of nozzles spraying out into the opening over top of the heat exchanger. The spacer plates for carb apps have the meth nozzles flush with the inside of the spacer. This is not a heavily loaded area, I don't think drilling the casting would have any negative effects on its structure, especially a 1/4 hole at worst. There is no water back there, afaik.

What blower setup do you have? With the ROUSH manifold, there is not enough material and space/clearance. Ideally you want the spray to be upstream enough to vaporize and absorb heat. If you inject too close to the heads, you'll be spraying straight liquid possibly pooling in areas and not getting even coverage across the cylinders.

Just some thoughts...

 

[AutoXRacer]

Add the 13/14 GT500 exchanger to go with the pump! It's a monster at 4" thick!

Is it bigger than the dual fan VMP unit?

 

[Pentalab]

Is it bigger than the dual fan VMP unit?

The story I got was it was so thick, at 4", that there is no room for fans. I can't tell from his pix, but perhaps he can tell us what the HWD is..esp the height. Make it high enough, and it gets hit by air from the upper grille. How thick is the VMP unit.... NOT including the fans ? I believe the new 13-14 GT-500 HE was reasonably priced.

One of those 16" diam x 3/4" thick mishimoto fans, that blows 1900 cfm, in some cases will fit behind or in front of a HE. As long as the car is moving, even 20-30 mph, the HE fan(s) is probably not required. For staging lines and red lights on hot days, it's a bonus. You can always turn on the eng rad fan in full bore mode....either with AC on... or defrost mode, with ac blower under dash turned down low, and heat set to coldest. That will force the eng fan to come on full bore. With the 7 bar upper grille, and car parked, and eng fan on full bore, it sucks air through the HE pretty good.

 

[Pentalab]

What blower setup do you have? With the ROUSH manifold, there is not enough material and space/clearance. Ideally you want the spray to be upstream enough to vaporize and absorb heat. If you inject too close to the heads, you'll be spraying straight liquid possibly pooling in areas and not getting even coverage across the cylinders.

Just some thoughts...

Carmen, (redfire 427) went through all of this. He ended up using a pair of 225ml sprayers, located in the blower elbow. Then you cool the elbow, rotors, blower casing, IC, and manifold. He re-used the windshield wiper bottle (which can still be used for the wipers). Enough capacity for a 20-30 min track session at Mosport. He had a green-yellow-red led setup to indicate the water-meth level. Snow also made some optional safety devices to ensure reliability. You can also buy multi colored leds, so only 1 led required, with the same green-yellow-red format.

86GT has the VMP TVS-1900 I sold him... retrofitted on his M90 manifold, with a 2010 M90 /TVS-2300 style large single pass HE, and the 2010 larger capacity de-gas.

 

[eighty6gt]

What blower setup do you have? With the ROUSH manifold, there is not enough material and space/clearance. Ideally you want the spray to be upstream enough to vaporize and absorb heat. If you inject too close to the heads, you'll be spraying straight liquid possibly pooling in areas and not getting even coverage across the cylinders.

Just some thoughts...

People have sprayed meth into the manifold after the intercooler core. It's only a 1/8 npt sized hole at worst. Looking at pictures of the M90 manifold there appears to be space, I'm more concerned about getting the fittings/line on the outside near the fuel rails.

Think of how clean that oily cruddy lower intake will get!! :-s

 

[Pentalab]

People have sprayed meth into the manifold after the intercooler core. It's only a 1/8 npt sized hole at worst. Looking at pictures of the M90 manifold there appears to be space, I'm more concerned about getting the fittings/line on the outside near the fuel rails.

Think of how clean that oily cruddy lower intake will get!! :-s

Tuning for meth may be a trick..esp with email tunes.... but doable. Carmen had his tuned right at steeda in i think toronto.

 

[eighty6gt]

I'm thinking of going with HP Tuners, doing it myself.

 

[Saleen304]

What would you have to do to tune for meth? I would think you would just need to adjust A/F at WOT, right? It won't be distributed to each cylinder equally so you would want to be conservative. Keep timing controlled by knock sensors and IAT.

 

[BMR Tech]

Not sure about this application, BUT I can give some data on my old 2004 Cobra - and current 2015 with TVS.

It would cruise at 125 IAT2s....and get to 165-170 on a full 1-4 gear pull, then drop back down to 130ish..... This was on an 85 degree day with 21psi boost.

That was with the stock Bosch IC Pump, and an Afco Dual Pass H/E (for 03/04 Cobra)

I upgraded the lines, fittings, and went with the Jabsco pump pictured above, and a GT500 specific Afco H/E (much larger) and the temps went to 110-115 cruising, and 135-140 after 1-4 pull.

My current TVS Coyote....I have 115 cruising, and 120 WOT after a pull. Also on 85! degree day. This is on 15psi making 800 - and it's an Afco with fans, and 13/14GT500 Pump. Recovery time is also VERY quick.

 

[Pentalab]

What would you have to do to tune for meth? I would think you would just need to adjust A/F at WOT, right? It won't be distributed to each cylinder equally so you would want to be conservative. Keep timing controlled by knock sensors and IAT.

Hey, he has made a good point here....equal distribution..or in your proposed case, probably unequal distribution. I think Carmen also brought up that issue. On Paper, spraying into the manifold might be the most effective, but awkward. Carmens pair of 225 ml sprayers into the blower elbow solves a bunch of potential issues.... + you get equal distribution into each cyl.

The water of course cools everything down, and the meth is just a cheap octane booster. Being able to cool the elbow, blower case, rotor pack, IC, manifold...all in one shot is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[eighty6gt]

The proponents say that spraying before the blower results in even distribution between cylinders. Unless the fuel/water is dropping out I suppose this is necessarily true.

I'm warming up to the idea of spraying into the rotors and monitoring for deterioration of the coatings/bearings. Car doesn't see a lot of miles.

Cooling the blower uses up the heat capacity of the water for that, rather than cooling the charge itself. I don't think a hot blower heats the air up much, it's mostly just the compression of the air, in the rotors, or in the manifold. Can't remember what DOB gained with the insulation, the common thread in every setup test is there are many variables changing at once.

I'm happy with how my system is running, power is great, reliability great, it's only hot enough here to affect power about 2-3 days of the year... I can just put some icing on the cake, esp. w.r.t. the octane, I'm hoping.

 

[Pentalab]

Not sure about this application, BUT I can give some data on my old 2004 Cobra - and current 2015 with TVS.

It would cruise at 125 IAT2s....and get to 165-170 on a full 1-4 gear pull, then drop back down to 130ish..... This was on an 85 degree day with 21psi boost.

That was with the stock Bosch IC Pump, and an Afco Dual Pass H/E (for 03/04 Cobra)

I upgraded the lines, fittings, and went with the Jabsco pump pictured above, and a GT500 specific Afco H/E (much larger) and the temps went to 110-115 cruising, and 135-140 after 1-4 pull.

My current TVS Coyote....I have 115 cruising, and 120 WOT after a pull. Also on 85! degree day. This is on 15psi making 800 - and it's an Afco with fans, and 13/14GT500 Pump. Recovery time is also VERY quick.

165-170 F is nuts, it would have pulled a ton of timing. VMP tells me that the IC used in the cobra was identical to the one use in the Roush M90..and that is a small thing vs the IC in the TVS-2300.
Does your current 2015 with TVS-2300 use all 3/4" lines and fittings ?

Sounds like the 13/14 GT-500 pump is the bomb. I'd love to see what two of em in series would be capable of. 800rwhp, is that using pump gas or E85..or race gas ?

On paper, you could stuff 20 gpm through a keyhole....provided you had
enormous pressure behind it. A lot of these pumps like the 2 x mezziere units, are nothing more than bilge pumps, great for getting water out of a boat..and not much else. No restrictions to speak of in that application.

I run into the same thing with centrifugal air pumps all the time...but at least they come with detailed graphs, depicting CFM vs pressure. At one end of the graph is max CFM and zero pressure. At the other extreme end of the same graph is zero CFM and max pressure. The zero cfm + max pressure end is called...."cutoff". The ones that put out loads of pressure and lots of cfm all have one thing in common, they all use big diam squirell cages but narrow width wheels..and a lot of rpm. The above electric pumps are used to cool large metal transmitter tubes used for broadcast and other applications. Centrifugal blowers used for FI on cars is similar, except the impellor speeds are a lot greater.

Dunno why these water pumps are not graphed out the same way. '29 gpm' is a meaningless spec...and only depicts one end of the non existent graph.

IF we knew and could graph the actual flow rate vs pressure for a given IC-HE-degas-pump /fittings /lines.... say 0-20 GPM...then plotted that graph (with the same scale) vs the proposed pump(s) specs (flow vs pressure).... the flow you actually achieve could easily be read... where the two graphs intersect each other. That's how it's done for commercial air pump applications.

With water pumps and HE /IC...we have to know the length + ID of each line, ID of each fitting, and back pressures involved in both the HE + IC etc. It all sounds like voodoo, but it's really not. DOB has determined the IC extracts plenty of heat....enough to boil the coolant. The problem is the coolant resides inside the IC too long. The flow rate needs to be increased. Big diam fittings + lines is one way to reduce the pressure requirements.....resulting in typ pumps flowing more gpm.

 

[eighty6gt]

Blower discharge temps of 220F would be required to boil coolant. Is this reasonable to expect? I like reading about the Terminators and 150F IAT's - people made it work just fine back then. Now we're dealing with some kind of monster if you're over 120.

Wish we had E85 here, even if it does kill the environment. Justin was making super wacky power on Brian's car running Torco. Nobody knows those IAT's.

 

[Pentalab]

Blower discharge temps of 220F would be required to boil coolant. Is this reasonable to expect? I like reading about the Terminators and 150F IAT's - people made it work just fine back then. Now we're dealing with some kind of monster if you're over 120.

Wish we had E85 here, even if it does kill the environment. Justin was making super wacky power on Brian's car running Torco. Nobody knows those IAT's.

A 50-50 water- glycol mix boils at 265 F... but that is partially cuz the system is under pressure. Even a pressure cooker on the stove top will boil a lot higher than 212 F....since it's under a lot of pressure. Justin told me a couple of years ago he wasn't having much success with 100% distilled water + water wetter in one of his high boost configs. I can see why now, the 100% water + water wetter would boil at a far lower temp vs a 50-50 mix. 100% water will extract heat at a greater rate..which just really compounds the problem.... the 100% water not only gets hotter with it's supieor heat extraction, it also boils at a lower temps vs 50-50.

He even tried that Evans waterless cooler junk to no avail. That stuff is basicly 100% gylcol. Sure, the boiling point is sky high, but it does not extract heat very well either. A few folks here in town tried it in the eng rad....with sky high cyl head temps, and ditto with coolant temps. Yes, it won't boil, but it doesn't cool worth a damn either.

If the various fittings and lines can't be sized any bigger than 3/4", the only recourse is to use a pump that will flow more coolant..into a lot higher back pressures. On paper, there should be no more boiling inside the IC, the entire system will have been optimized. If the flow rate is fast enough, then the 100% distilled water may be of a benefit. It might also backfire on you, with the increased flow rate still not high enough, greater heat extraction of 100% water, and it's now lower boiling point.

 

[hamish]

I've got a lower boost setup and Just datalogged 100% distilled water and water wetter.

4* drop in AIT temps compared to yesterdays runs with 50/50 water glycol.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Jimbo, why did you sell your 1.9L VMP TVS!!??

You would have enjoyed cooler IATs...seems like you are very concerned with those temps.

BTW, new LCAs and springs get here tomorrow!!

 

[eighty6gt]

The IAT's are materially the same between the M90 and the TVS 1.9 @ the boost levels Jim was thinking of running.

I was talking about straight water or 20% glycol at best boiling in the heat exchanger. I would like to know something about blower discharge temps, and the only way to find out is probably by installing a probe and measuring myself.

 

[AutoXRacer]

The IAT's are materially the same between the M90 and the TVS 1.9 @ the boost levels Jim was thinking of running.

I was talking about straight water or 20% glycol at best boiling in the heat exchanger. I would like to know something about blower discharge temps, and the only way to find out is probably by installing a probe and measuring myself.

But the 1.9L TVS is a much better blower than the M90.
I would have slapped it on just because it runs better...even at the same boost levels.
I am not sure why Jimbo is so conservative with his boost. Hell, my M90 was boosted to 11 PSI... Never had an issue.

You know the blower IATs never get hot enough to boil the coolant...?

I was at a track day a couple of weeks ago and my IATs climbed up to 175 during decel which is expected (no air flow) since you are reading basically internal manifold temps.

The coolant was warm, but not hot. I was able to stick my finger in it and not get burnt.

I would not worry about boiling the supercharger coolant. You have to be doing something really wrong to make that happen.

 

[eighty6gt]

I would not worry about boiling the supercharger coolant. You have to be doing something really wrong to make that happen.

I agree with you, but do a search for "boil" and "department of boost."