05stroker
Never enough power guy!
Sorry, for jumping in here Gerald, but Bruce, what is the highest pressure spring you cant get for a Ford/GT500 pump? And does the spring help at idle or just wot?
2008 Stage 3 ROUSH - Rebirth...
- Thread starter AutoXRacer
- Start date
Sorry, for jumping in here Gerald, but Bruce, what is the highest pressure spring you cant get for a Ford/GT500 pump? And does the spring help at idle or just wot?
BruceH
BBB Big Bore Boss 322
All I did was swap springs from my 3v pump into the gt500 pump. I don't know the ratings.
It's only used during high viscosity situations. Basically if the oil pressure can overcome the spring and open the relief valve then it works. I would hope that idle oil pressure isn't enough to open it.
I was thinking of looking up the psi specs but unless the motor has Ford clearances with the Ford spec oil it's probably going to be different anyway.
It's things like this that keep me using what Ford says to use. It's also why my motors have stock clearances if possible.
It's only used during high viscosity situations. Basically if the oil pressure can overcome the spring and open the relief valve then it works. I would hope that idle oil pressure isn't enough to open it.
I was thinking of looking up the psi specs but unless the motor has Ford clearances with the Ford spec oil it's probably going to be different anyway.
It's things like this that keep me using what Ford says to use. It's also why my motors have stock clearances if possible.
05stroker
Never enough power guy!
I have plenty of PSI once I touch the throttle. It just idles around 25 psi. I know it is from my loose specs I run on the rods. I have never seen any oiling issues but just wanted to check. If there was a way to raise idle psi and not effect wot psi then I would be interested in that.
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Mine did the same with stock (close to stock) clearances from JDM.
My hot idle PSI was in the 20s.
Stock GT 4.6L oil pressure at 2,000 RPM should be no less than 75 PSI according to the service manual. But my high volume/pressure SVT oil pump only made 60 PSI at 2,000 RPM.
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
So last Thursday I finally picked up all my parts!!! When I reviewed the invoice, wow, it was dated 1/24/2014!!!!! It took 6 months!!!!
I have spent the last 3 days working on the motor. I never realized how easy these mod motors are to put together; especially if its bone stock.
Modified motors require a lot more work to check for clearances and such.
I spent 12 hours yesterday learning, trying to degree my cams correctly. After 11 hours and lots of frustration, I think I have figured it out.
I was getting consistent results!!! I made so many rookie mistakes and overlooks. Seems like the timing chains like to skip teeth if they are not tensioned while hand rotating the crank. What an ordeal.
I got both banks spot on at 109.5 ICL (intake center line); target is 108 though. The important thing is that both sides are equal or very close within 1 degree.
I still have a concern though. Comp Cams specs my cams to 102 ICL, when I timed it to R6 (6 degrees retard), I got basically 111.5. Lowered it to R4 and ended with 109.5.
If these are truly 102 ICL, I would have ended up with 106 ICL (102 plus 4 degree retard = 106), where are the extra 3.5 degrees coming from?
Even thought is a lot of tedious work, I may install the stock crank gears and check the baseline, then re-check at R2 and R4.
Doesn't seem like these are at 102 if my degreeing methods are sound.
I will post pics and a short description on how to degree cams. It sounds complicated, but in reality when you spent 12 hours doing it, its really simple. lol
I have spent the last 3 days working on the motor. I never realized how easy these mod motors are to put together; especially if its bone stock.
Modified motors require a lot more work to check for clearances and such.
I spent 12 hours yesterday learning, trying to degree my cams correctly. After 11 hours and lots of frustration, I think I have figured it out.
I was getting consistent results!!! I made so many rookie mistakes and overlooks. Seems like the timing chains like to skip teeth if they are not tensioned while hand rotating the crank. What an ordeal.
I got both banks spot on at 109.5 ICL (intake center line); target is 108 though. The important thing is that both sides are equal or very close within 1 degree.
I still have a concern though. Comp Cams specs my cams to 102 ICL, when I timed it to R6 (6 degrees retard), I got basically 111.5. Lowered it to R4 and ended with 109.5.
If these are truly 102 ICL, I would have ended up with 106 ICL (102 plus 4 degree retard = 106), where are the extra 3.5 degrees coming from?
Even thought is a lot of tedious work, I may install the stock crank gears and check the baseline, then re-check at R2 and R4.
Doesn't seem like these are at 102 if my degreeing methods are sound.
I will post pics and a short description on how to degree cams. It sounds complicated, but in reality when you spent 12 hours doing it, its really simple. lol
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Update:
OK so I just degree-ed the OEM crank gears and the Trick Flow gears (at 0, R2, and R4).
Let me just start by saying if my technique is correct, then the Comp Cams cam cards intake center line are incorrect; intake center line 102.
Ford OEM crank gear:
RH - 106
LH - 105.5
Trick Flow crank gear:
0 adv/rtd
LH - 105.5
RH - 105.5
R2
RH - 107.5
LH - 107.25
R4
LH - 109.25
RH - 109.5
So since Lito wants to target 108, guess I'll be retarding the cams 2 degrees to get 107.5.
My question is, on my cam card, it stated the intake center line to be 102. Where are the 3.5 extra degrees coming from?
OK so I just degree-ed the OEM crank gears and the Trick Flow gears (at 0, R2, and R4).
Let me just start by saying if my technique is correct, then the Comp Cams cam cards intake center line are incorrect; intake center line 102.
Ford OEM crank gear:
RH - 106
LH - 105.5
Trick Flow crank gear:
0 adv/rtd
LH - 105.5
RH - 105.5
R2
RH - 107.5
LH - 107.25
R4
LH - 109.25
RH - 109.5
So since Lito wants to target 108, guess I'll be retarding the cams 2 degrees to get 107.5.
My question is, on my cam card, it stated the intake center line to be 102. Where are the 3.5 extra degrees coming from?
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Here is the shortblock fresh from the machine shop:
Double keyed crank!!
Test fitting the new 2013 GT500 oil pan with 8.5 qt capacity.
Trick Flow adjustable gears vs OEM Ford:
I found TDC (top dead center) with a dial indicator and get my degree wheel to perfectly read 0 degrees (TDC).
Double keyed crank!!
Test fitting the new 2013 GT500 oil pan with 8.5 qt capacity.
Trick Flow adjustable gears vs OEM Ford:
I found TDC (top dead center) with a dial indicator and get my degree wheel to perfectly read 0 degrees (TDC).
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Since I am locking out my cam phasers, I decided to install Ford V10 VCT block off plates:
RH side:
LH side head installed:
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Installing cam phaser locks:
Phaser on LH head
Both heads installed with cams and phasers...ready for cam degreeing!!!
Trick Flow adjustable gear set at R6
Verifying timing chains
Set on dark chain link on the L for the LH side
R6 for the keyway and R6 for the 2nd dark chain link
Same procedure for the RH side
I measured the stock hydraulic lash adjuster and set the solid adjustable one slightly longer:
More pictures to come!!
Phaser on LH head
Both heads installed with cams and phasers...ready for cam degreeing!!!
Trick Flow adjustable gear set at R6
Verifying timing chains
Set on dark chain link on the L for the LH side
R6 for the keyway and R6 for the 2nd dark chain link
Same procedure for the RH side
I measured the stock hydraulic lash adjuster and set the solid adjustable one slightly longer:
More pictures to come!!
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Quick update on the 3.5 degree difference.
Speaking with Lito and forum members, the difference may be (most certainly) due to the stack up of parts-tolerances (phaser, chains, cams, etc).
I'll be doing my final cam degree tonight and locking the timing to 109.5 per my tuners recommendation.
I will try to document my procedure for future reference.
Speaking with Lito and forum members, the difference may be (most certainly) due to the stack up of parts-tolerances (phaser, chains, cams, etc).
I'll be doing my final cam degree tonight and locking the timing to 109.5 per my tuners recommendation.
I will try to document my procedure for future reference.
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Taking a break from working on the car... My feet ache from standing all day. lol
OK, so here is the 101 on degreeing cams. Its sounds more intimidating than it actually is. So here goes:
First step is to find your TDC (top dead center) of piston #1; its also going to be TDC of piston number 6.
There are two ways you can do this; I describe the way I did it. as you can see in the pic below, I used a dial indicator to find TDC perfectly and then set the degree wheel and pointer perfectly at 0. I also made sure both pointer and degree wheel were on tight so it would not loosen and lose its setting later on when the wheel comes on and off.
Once I found and setup me degree wheel I moved onto putting the heads together.
BTW, the tools I used was a Comp Cams crankshaft socket 4793 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4793), Comp Cams 9" degree wheel 4790 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4790), and Crane Cams 12mm piston stop 99410-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99410-1) along with the Trick Flow cam degree kit with the supplemental 4.6L kit (http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS-90000 and http://www.trickflow.com/search.asp?N=400098++4294952312+115+339309&autoview=sku); I suggest to get two adjustable solid lifters to make the job 100 time easier.
I had to modify the Crane Cams piston stop by grinding off some of the threads so that the stop would actually reach the piston.
So once the heads are bolted and torqued onto the shortblock, lifters installed leaving out one of the intake lifters for piston 1 and 6, you are ready to degree. Definitely buy two solid lifters from Trick Flow (you get one in the supplemental kit) or you could weld two stock lifters.
The way I adjusted my solid lifter was I measured the length of a stock used lifter and slightly made it longer to make sure it has a solid contact with the rocker.
When you install your lifter, don't forget to install your rocker too. Again, its easier to have two rockers and two solid lifters as you will save yourself of constant disassembly going side to side.
So once your lifter and rocker are installed in cylinder 1 and/or 6, set your dial indicator to read off the intake valve retainer. Make sure your dial indicator shaft is as close to parallel to the valve stem.
This is how I set mine up:
Make sure when you set it up, you set it up at max lift so that your dial indicator does not bottom out.
On my current setup, I went with the Trick Flow adjustable crank gears:
Notice the numbers on the teeth and keyway slots?
What you are going to do is align the keyway slot to the setting you want advanced or retard X degrees. I went to 4 degree retard; R4.
R4 on the keyway:
Then R4 on the chain:
You do this on both LH and RH side, the phasers are just like stock, align the dark chain link with L for the LH side and R for the RH side.
Once the chains are aligned, its time to install the chain guides and tensioners.
Make sure to use old tensioners as you will be removing and reinstalling them and you don't want to damage the new ones as the seal is very fragile.
Once everything is set, oh I almost forgot, now you can set your TDC the most common way. With the degree wheel installed, by the way, you should be close to TDC, but rotate the crank 15-20 degree from O (TDC). Insert the piston stop and verify reading on the degree. When you install the piston stop, the piston stop may slightly push the piston down one or two degrees. Now, rotate the crank in the opposite direction and hopefully you get the same reading, if not you have to take the difference of both readings, take half and readjust the degree wheel until both rotations indicate the same values.
Once you have found TDC, rotate the crank clockwise, only rotate it clockwise for degreeing cams. Rotate until you read maximum lift on the valve, the needle on the dial indicator will move and at maximum lift it will stop for a few degrees. Once you reach this, set the dial indicator to 0.
Now rotate the crank clockwise and stop as soon as the needle indicates 50. Now see what your degree wheel is indicating. In my case it was 143 degrees at 0.050 lift after max lift.
Once you've written down this reading, continue rotating clockwise until you read 50 before max lift, this will happen after one full rotation, 50 before max lift will happen around 60-80 degrees. Mine fell on 75.
Now write down your result... Mine were 143 and 75... Add these numbers and divide by 2, I got 10Continue rotating the crank clockwise and repeat 3 times to make sure you get consistent results. Repeat on the other head. You should get the same ICL.
If not you will have to adjust the timing on one side so that both sides are within 1 degree.
So if you get 109 on the right hand side and 111 on the left, retard the LH by two degrees if your target is 109.
Once you have found your target ICL, you will have to redo your timing, remove the solid lifters and replace with new lifters and rocker, reset your timing making sure you set it at true TDC, set your chains according to your findings where both sides are equal and at your target ICL.
I hope this helps!!!
OK, so here is the 101 on degreeing cams. Its sounds more intimidating than it actually is. So here goes:
First step is to find your TDC (top dead center) of piston #1; its also going to be TDC of piston number 6.
There are two ways you can do this; I describe the way I did it. as you can see in the pic below, I used a dial indicator to find TDC perfectly and then set the degree wheel and pointer perfectly at 0. I also made sure both pointer and degree wheel were on tight so it would not loosen and lose its setting later on when the wheel comes on and off.
Once I found and setup me degree wheel I moved onto putting the heads together.
BTW, the tools I used was a Comp Cams crankshaft socket 4793 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4793), Comp Cams 9" degree wheel 4790 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4790), and Crane Cams 12mm piston stop 99410-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99410-1) along with the Trick Flow cam degree kit with the supplemental 4.6L kit (http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS-90000 and http://www.trickflow.com/search.asp?N=400098++4294952312+115+339309&autoview=sku); I suggest to get two adjustable solid lifters to make the job 100 time easier.
I had to modify the Crane Cams piston stop by grinding off some of the threads so that the stop would actually reach the piston.
So once the heads are bolted and torqued onto the shortblock, lifters installed leaving out one of the intake lifters for piston 1 and 6, you are ready to degree. Definitely buy two solid lifters from Trick Flow (you get one in the supplemental kit) or you could weld two stock lifters.
The way I adjusted my solid lifter was I measured the length of a stock used lifter and slightly made it longer to make sure it has a solid contact with the rocker.
When you install your lifter, don't forget to install your rocker too. Again, its easier to have two rockers and two solid lifters as you will save yourself of constant disassembly going side to side.
So once your lifter and rocker are installed in cylinder 1 and/or 6, set your dial indicator to read off the intake valve retainer. Make sure your dial indicator shaft is as close to parallel to the valve stem.
This is how I set mine up:
Make sure when you set it up, you set it up at max lift so that your dial indicator does not bottom out.
On my current setup, I went with the Trick Flow adjustable crank gears:
Notice the numbers on the teeth and keyway slots?
What you are going to do is align the keyway slot to the setting you want advanced or retard X degrees. I went to 4 degree retard; R4.
R4 on the keyway:
Then R4 on the chain:
You do this on both LH and RH side, the phasers are just like stock, align the dark chain link with L for the LH side and R for the RH side.
Once the chains are aligned, its time to install the chain guides and tensioners.
Make sure to use old tensioners as you will be removing and reinstalling them and you don't want to damage the new ones as the seal is very fragile.
Once everything is set, oh I almost forgot, now you can set your TDC the most common way. With the degree wheel installed, by the way, you should be close to TDC, but rotate the crank 15-20 degree from O (TDC). Insert the piston stop and verify reading on the degree. When you install the piston stop, the piston stop may slightly push the piston down one or two degrees. Now, rotate the crank in the opposite direction and hopefully you get the same reading, if not you have to take the difference of both readings, take half and readjust the degree wheel until both rotations indicate the same values.
Once you have found TDC, rotate the crank clockwise, only rotate it clockwise for degreeing cams. Rotate until you read maximum lift on the valve, the needle on the dial indicator will move and at maximum lift it will stop for a few degrees. Once you reach this, set the dial indicator to 0.
Now rotate the crank clockwise and stop as soon as the needle indicates 50. Now see what your degree wheel is indicating. In my case it was 143 degrees at 0.050 lift after max lift.
Once you've written down this reading, continue rotating clockwise until you read 50 before max lift, this will happen after one full rotation, 50 before max lift will happen around 60-80 degrees. Mine fell on 75.
Now write down your result... Mine were 143 and 75... Add these numbers and divide by 2, I got 10Continue rotating the crank clockwise and repeat 3 times to make sure you get consistent results. Repeat on the other head. You should get the same ICL.
If not you will have to adjust the timing on one side so that both sides are within 1 degree.
So if you get 109 on the right hand side and 111 on the left, retard the LH by two degrees if your target is 109.
Once you have found your target ICL, you will have to redo your timing, remove the solid lifters and replace with new lifters and rocker, reset your timing making sure you set it at true TDC, set your chains according to your findings where both sides are equal and at your target ICL.
I hope this helps!!!
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
what are the expected gains?
thanx for the write up, if i ever pull my front cover off i plan to do this.
thanx for the write up, if i ever pull my front cover off i plan to do this.
swflastang05
Back for More
If all goes well I'll be doing this to my new motor this weekend, I'll definitely reference this thread during the process!
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Are you asking gains from degreeing the cams? Not sure...
Basically you are just ensuring the motor is clocked properly and not off by 1-4 degrees from bank to bank. Having the motor properly degree-ed will ensure max horsepower and efficiency.
I am sure there is lost HP in a motor with 2-4 degrees off each bank.
Also, there is the opportunity to retard the cams, this is dependent on the type of cam (grind) you have and what your tuner has experience with.
In my case, since I have a blower and crazy amount of torque down low, I was told to retard the cams 4 degrees to shift the power band to the mid-to-top end. Lito and others find that the 127450 cams perform really well with a 109-110 intake center line.
Question for you guys that have built your motors...
When you install brand new lifters, do you prime them before installing them in the motor? I read a thread where it describes to do this, but the Ford Service Manual does not even mention it.
Thus I installed my lifters out of the box. sigh
Wondering if I will be OK...
Last edited:
swflastang05
Back for More
I'll be installing mine this weekend but I have them soaking in oil now. I would think yours would be fine without soaking, probably just be noisy at start up a little longer than those that are pre-soaked.
AutoXRacer
Senior Member
Man I wish I knew this before installing them. I would so have done this!!
Lets hope I will be OK.
swflastang05
Back for More
I'm sure they'll be fine, if it was that critical it would have included that step in the directions IMO. I completely understand how your feeling now though about this issue, I have the same OCD when it comes to my motor 
lito
Senior Member
Just precharge it with oil.
BruceH
BBB Big Bore Boss 322
They can be filled by pumping them under the oil surface until no air bubbles come out.
Gerald, I doubt they are pre filled at the factory. Like lito said just prime the motor prior to first start. It will be fine.
05stroker
Never enough power guy!
This, I use the garden sprayer method and put all 7 QTS ( what mine holds) in every new motor this way.
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