A couple well known vendors not to trust: Kenny Brown and Fluidyne

[JJ427R]

Recently did some cooling upgrades on my 2010 Roush 427r. Was having issues with automatic tranny overheating while doing track days. I contacted Kenny Brown Performance regarding this and also Fluidyne regarding their Kenny Brown Fluidyne Triple Flow Triple Pass Radiator (only available thru KB) as well As Triple Flow Heat Exchanger w/Dual Fans. I wanted to make sure this would all fit in my car without doing major modification and was told by both vendors it would. It also states on the KB website it will fit in Roush SC equipped vehicles.

Got into the project and installed radiator, went to install heat exchanger with dual fans is when we ran into issues. Fans were not even close to clearing, by at least 5 inches. Contacted KB and they seemed surprised and were little help, and Rich Cottrell actually told me I would not have had any issues with it if I'd had their mechanic do the install.

At this point I should have had my mechanic pull it all and send it back to KB we decided to proceed. We ended up having to cut 5 inches out of my front fascia to get it to fit.

Shortly after went to Road America to run with Northwoods Shelby club, in 3 laps I was up to 230 degrees on engine temp and 210 on tranny. So much for the upgrades working.

I then contacted Ryan Williams At Fluidyne and was told I may not have a large enough water pump to push a triple pass system and may need to go back to single pass. WHAT THE F###.

I explained I contacted both them and KB before this to make sire it would work and was never told anything about this. Asked it they would replace the radiator at their cost and received no response....

I highly recommend avoiding both of these vendors.

P.S. the reason I run an automatic on the track is I drive with hand controls.

Forgot to mention also added a Performance Automatic Pan and trans cooler is a Mishimoto with a fan.

 

[ox white]

Engine cooling upgrades aren't going to affect the trans much. You need a big transmission cooler, larger capacity pan, etc.

 

[JJ427R]

Engine cooling upgrades aren't going to affect the trans much. You need a big transmission cooler, larger capacity pan, etc.

Forgot to mention also added a Performance Automatic Pan and trans cooler is a Mishimoto with a fan.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Triple Pass H.E.'s are available through VMP Performance. Bought mine there. It is very possible that an upgrade to a 13/14 GT500 recirc pump for the H.E. would improve efficiency.

With regard to the radiator did you have the tune updated to operate the cooling fan at lower temps after the install? This would benefit the setup if it has not been done. A larger capacity radiator alone doesn't always reap the full result. Upgrading the T-stat to a lower temp unit may also help make better use of the larger radiator.

If these things have not been addressed on the radiator temp then I suggest doing them. Lowering the temp setpoint would involve a change to the custom tune you are running. If you are running the Roush base tune, you will not be able to do this. Roush will not modify their tunes from my personal experience with them.

You may also wish to look into opening up air flow through the grill and/or redirection of air flow. Too often air ends up going around the radiator or H.E. rather than through it even with fans.

You will need to monitor IAT2 temps on a Positive Displacement SC setup to know how well the H.E. is performing. I would do this under the conditions you are running the car before modding that.

 

[Sky Render]

You're trying to road race a forced induction car. Simple bolt-ons are not going to fix your overheating.

There's a reason only the most wild AIX cars are running forced induction.

Remove the blower or stick to autocross.

 

[NickD87]

I also think you may be a little confused with temps
Engine coolant temperature is only effected by the radiator. The fluidyne heat exchanger is a completely separate loop and you do not have a sensor it in, you would be able to judge its effectiveness by your ait2 temps.

I would speak to Jason @ department of boost regarding optimizing your cooling systems for the road course as he has experience road racing PD blower cars.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[JJ427R]

I also think you may be a little confused with temps
Engine coolant temperature is only effected by the radiator. The fluidyne heat exchanger is a completely separate loop and you do not have a sensor it in, you would be able to judge its effectiveness by your ait2 temps.

I would speak to Jason @ department of boost regarding optimizing your cooling systems for the road course as he has experience road racing PD blower cars.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm not confused, maybe I was not specific enough. I am aware they are on separate systems. I already have the GT500 pump on the HE as that is what Roush installs.
The cooling, triple flow, and temps I'm referring to are the engine temps and radiator.

Spoke with JDM Engineering, my tuner, and they said my radiator fan is set to come on at about 200* stock temp to come on is about 212*. They also recommend not going below 180* on thermostat as these engines need the heat.

Also JDM just installed a similar triple flow HE as mine in another similar Roush car and had to cut the front fascia the same as I did, they have done several and were quite aware of this. For the Kenny Brown people to say I would not have to do this is and acted like they were unaware, especially when they claim to have worked on many Roush's, and also have the misleading info on their website is the B.S I'm calling out.

 

[Pentalab]

You're trying to road race a forced induction car. Simple bolt-ons are not going to fix your overheating.

There's a reason only the most wild AIX cars are running forced induction.

Remove the blower or stick to autocross.

Nothing wrong with a blower on a road course. The problems start when trying to run drag strip boost levels. The little M90 (1.48 L) is not an efficient blower. The 2010 M90 has the cai on the driver's side, it's short..and straight. The 2010 M90 doesn't have the classic 05-09 M90 whine either. It's fine with the oem 73mm pulley (2.875") and 5-6 psi. Drop down to the smaller 2.49" pulley (63mm) and another 3 psi of boost, and then it becomes the infamous...'heaton'. The IAT's are then way up there. My IAT's sit at aprx 122 F when cruising in OD. The air is going through so slow at 1500 rpm @ 50 mph, it picks up a ton of heat from the already hot Roush aluminum manifold (Roush aluminum manifold also has a built in integral hot water crossover..along the leading edge). Mash the gas, blower on, and IAT's drop like a rock. The air is screaming through there so fast, it doesn't get a chance to pick up heat from the hot manifold. ( 5-6 psi). Coolant, cyl head temps rise very little. Auto tranny temps barely move (with a correct 2nd tranny cooler used). Eng oil temps may well be an issue though. They could easily hit 300 F on a road course.

Use the smaller pulley, and another 3 psi boost, and blower discharge temps skyrocket, everything goes to hell..and fast. VMP + JDM etc are drag strip focused. Loads of folks would not only use the 2.57" pulley, then swap to the smaller 2.49" pulley, then also use a 12% bigger crank pulley..and really cook everything. Fine for a 12 sec blast down the strip. Just come back and add more Ice.

Carmen over on the Roush forum was getting more rwhp than anybody with his M90 + 2.57" pulley setup. (488 rwhp) He road coursed at Mosport in Ontario on a regular basis. He used water/meth injection though.....with a pair of 225 ml sprayers mounted into the M90 blower elbow. That kept it all in check. He had just enough water /meth to complete the 20 min track sessions. Killer chiller won't work since the AC is off at WOT, so useless on a road course.

IF the OP has the oem 2010 upper grille, he needs to replace it with the 7 bar grille. No point in having a new triple flow, triple pass eng rad..and a new triple pass HE + dual fans.... then have a massive oem upper grille restriction.

 

[Juice]

While I know this is apples to oranges, I could not keep my AOD in the fox cool enough at Watkins Glen. I had installed a separate largest trans cooler from B&M, and at the time, the trans stayed in 3rd (direct drive) around the track. It never shifted. Still I had trans fluid boiling/puking out of the dipstick.

Most of the heat in an auto tranny is generated in the torque converter. A custom tune forcing (if possible) "lock up" may help a great deal. This was definitely NOT possible with the AOD being a fully hydraulic controlled trans.

I usually bypass the radiator's built-in trans cooler when upgrading trans cooling. This is advised against in the installation of the trans coolers, stating it will run the transmission "TOO COLD". No such thing as "too cold" transmission IMO. I believe the real reason is emissions related.

If not bypass the built-in cooler, have the added cooler AFTER the radiator, before the fluid goes back to the transmission. The radiator can only cool the trans fluid to coolant temp~ish. That is why placing the cooler AFTER the radiator will cool trans fluid closer to ambient temps.

Ps: turning on fans at a lower temp will not do a whole lot when the car is moving. Fans are designed to cool the engine under 25mph. Forward motion of the vehicle forces way more air through the radiator above that speed.

 

[Pentalab]

The OP has a 2010 automatic Roush 427R..with the M90 blower. I have a 2010 GT auto..with the same M90 blower + roush suspension etc, etc. I just don't have the Roush bling, so other than that the 2 x cars are essentially the same. On the 2010 Auto, the oem auto tranny cooler is not like the tranny cooler tied into the oem eng rad from years gone by. On the 2010 oem tranny cooler, it's completely separate..and sandwiched in between the oem eng rad....and the oem AC rad. I added a B+M auto tranny cooler, model 70268, which is only 11.25" wide x 8.5" tall x 3/4" thick. 13,000 BTU rated. http://www.bmracing.com/products/70...13000-btu-rating-black/?mk=&yr=&md=&smd=&eng= You can buy the same cooler anywhere, jegs etc. My local dyno place had loads of em in stock, so bought local.

I looked at a LOT of tranny coolers, including the mishimoto fan cooled unit, but the mishimoto is a tube + fin design..and way too thick with it's fan. The B+M super coolers are a bar + plate design, way more efficient, very rugged. The bigger B+M coolers , like their model 70264, which is 14,400 BTU rated, are TOO thick, at 1.5" thick.

Before the install of my B+M 70268, (which is mounted directly below,and plumbed in series with the oem tranny cooler), my auto tranny temps would sit at 170 F, while cruising on the hwy. Mash the gas, blower on, and tranny temps would soar to 200 F in just 6-8 secs ! After the addition of the B+M 70268, tranny temps would only increase from 170F up to a max of 172 F...with blower on, and wound up to 130 mph. It just won't heat up, so far so good.

Previous to all of this, I too added the (almost 5/8" thick aluminum) performance automatic deeper pan. It's triple the weight of the oem steel pan, 10.2 lbs vs 3.3 lbs. PA pan is exactly 2.1" deeper ( top to bottom) vs oem steel pan. Holds an extra 4 qts. To get ALL the old ATF out, including tq converter etc, the local ford dealer applied some suction on one side of oem tranny cooler...and some air pressure on other side of oem tranny cooler. Refilled with RP 'Max ATF' which is 100% synthetic. The PA pan has a locking style dipstick that comes up on the firewall on pass side. Dipstick opening is large enough to add ATF if required. Beware, with tranny /eng cold, the ATF level will be high on the stick....and drops down quite a bit, once eng up to temp, and tranny up to temp. Tweak ATF levels when tranny is at least 170F. Although the PA deeper pan has a drain plug on the bottom, if used, you won't get all the ATF outa there, it has to be suctioned out at the tranny cooler.

Problems still not solved. The poor 5r55s auto tranny used in the 05-09 cars has this tendency to puke ATF all over the ground, when heated up. JDM engineering found the same problem. They came up with a catch can for the 5R55S. They want you to mount it on firewall on pass side. Can't, the PA locking dipstick HAS to go there. Instead, we mounted the JDM catch can on driver's side, in the corner, on wheel well, just a few inches from firewall. OK, now there is NO way you can puke ATF all over the ground. http://www.teamjdm.com/2010-mustang-trans-fluid-overflow-catch-can/ Note we had to extend the provided 30" hose, to reach to drivers side.

With the previous goofy ford oem tranny pan, you don't have a dipstick at all, and no easy way to tell how much ATF has puked out.
(PA does not make the deeper pan for the 05-10 cars anymore, too bad, they still make the deeper version for the 11+ cars....and it holds an extra 3 qts).

Years ago, I did buy a Mishimoto top rad cover, made from aluminum, it had a 90 deg offset in it, and ducted more air into the upper portion of the various rads. It was lower than oem, and came with 2 x slots in it, to handle the 12 o'clock position of each oem upper foglamp. After I replaced oem useless upper grille with the 7 bar grille, the foglamp slots were simply covered up with some black gorilla tape. The concept works.

Between the extra 4 qts of ATF, use of synthetic ATF, 7 bar grille, deeper pan, catch can, lower ducted rad cover, the tranny temp issue has been finally resolved. I tried everything to cook it, and can't.... including a 1.5 hr flat out run from my daughters place, at 100+ mph the entire way, with blower on at least 50-60 times..on a hot day. The only thing I can't measure is eng oil temps + pressure. Eng coolant temps were fine, ditto with CHT, and IAT. ATF temps were a non issue, never exceeded 175F on that trip..and I beat on it really good.

 

[Pentalab]

Agreed, fans are good for staging lines at the strip, and around town at red lights in hot summer WX, that's it. I seriously thought of installing a mishimoto 18" diam fan ( 1980 cfm) right behind my oem roush 18" tall x 21" wide x 1" thick HE. I carefully calculated the actual velocity..and it was nothing to write home about, worked out to just 17 mph ! ( measure it urself, simple to do with those handheld wind speed indicators, or HVAC test gear). At speed, say 60-100 mph, the added HE fan either speeds way up...or doesn't quite speed up, and impedes airflow. I say they impede airflow. I dumped the idea. Skwerl replaced the 2010 oem HE with a VMP triple pass + fans..and other than the staging lines, and red lights around town, stop and go traffic, etc, it doesn't buy you anything. For a road course, they are pointless. You already have the eng fan running at high speed all the time anyway. With the 7 bar grille installed, and high speed fan on, you can feel the air being sucked through the upper grille, with car idling in the driveway. Lower T stat + lower fan settings won't work on the road course, the resulting eng temps are way past that point, ditto with oil temps etc. It's all going up > 200 F anyway.

One thing I was going to try, and that was to add a 2nd roush 18" tall x 21" wide HE right behind the 1st one, then use the bigger 8 gpm 13/14 GT-500 larger IC / HE pump. Split the coolant flow into 2 x paths, one per HE input, then recombine em at the pair of HE's output. Then you end up with aprx 4 gpm per HE. Ideally you want a slow rate through the HE to dump the heat..and a fast rate through the IC, to extract heat. But it's ALL one big loop, so you are screwed.... unless the HE can dump heat..and 2 x identical HE's can do that. Or a 13/14 GT-500 style HE, which is massive, not quite as tall as the Roush, but wider...and a whopping 3 1/8" thick core.

OP indicated he was using the GT-500 pump. All roush cars came with the SAME Bosch pump, aprx 4.2 gpm, under load. That same Bosch pump is used in a LOT of cars. With his new triple core HE, to take advantage of it, the oem Bosch pump needs to be swapped out with the 8 gpm 13/14 GT-500 bigger pump. The IC in the M90 is puny as is ( same IC as used on the M112 blower used on the 02/03 cobra). The IC extracts heat....and the HE dumps the heat. If the HE is not big enough, there is little point to a bigger HE / IC pump. You just end up circulating hot water. With his new triple pass HE, he can dump heat faster, and then can take advantage of the bigger IC / HE pump.

 

[eighty6gt]

sell this thing and buy a Carrera 2s pdk, problem solved.

 

[JJ427R]

Good info here ^^ My factory trans cooler and all the ducting around the factory radiator had to be removed to get the Fluidyne to fit (so much for bolt in replacement)

I have the JDM Catch can as well, I put that in a year before I changed my pan. I had tranny fluid blow out and cover almost the entire bottom of my car before that.

We mounted the Mishimoto cooler centered in front of the radiator, which I was leery of doing, but that is where they are designed to go, it was also about the only location in the front of my car we could find room. I have found out the fan on that may actually be causing negative back pressure on the radiator and not allowing proper cooling, so I need to relocate that, or switch to the B&M if it will fit.

I still have the stock upper grill, which also was not an issue previously, so need to change that as well as installing hood vents to get more air moving.

Oddly enough the only cooling issues I initially had were the tranny, engine cooling issues never started until I upgraded to the Fluidyne stuff last year. factory stuff I never had an issue....

sell this thing and buy a Carrera 2s pdk, problem solved.

No imports allowed in my garage.... Only American Muscle....

And I could not fit my wheelchair in a Porsche...

You're trying to road race a forced induction car. Simple bolt-ons are not going to fix your overheating.

There's a reason only the most wild AIX cars are running forced induction.

Remove the blower or stick to autocross.

Don't you know "Between a Road Car and a Race Car is a Roush Car" quote from Jack Roush

 

[eighty6gt]

boss 302 with a 6R80 would probably be pretty whack out on the road course.

 

[JJ427R]

boss 302 with a 6R80 would probably be pretty whack out on the road course.

I'd love to have one, GT500 or 350, but unfortunately not made with auto's, I drive with hand controls so need an auto, unless I get some racing pneumatic system.... way out of my price range.... I am however considering something newer with paddle shifters...

I really hope they build the new GT500 with a paddle shift option....

 

[eighty6gt]

swapping an auto into a gt350 or boss 302 would be no problem.

Power by the hour is putting the A6's into the GT500's. Converting them into 4 speeds so they are indestructible.

 

[Sky Render]

Power by the hour is putting the A6's into the GT500's. Converting them into 4 speeds so they are indestructible.

They're converting the A6 into a 4-speed? I thought the A6 was plenty stout enough as it was?

 

[Pentalab]

Good info here ^^ My factory trans cooler and all the ducting around the factory radiator had to be removed to get the Fluidyne to fit (so much for bolt in replacement)

I have the JDM Catch can as well, I put that in a year before I changed my pan. I had tranny fluid blow out and cover almost the entire bottom of my car before that.

We mounted the Mishimoto cooler centered in front of the radiator, which I was leery of doing, but that is where they are designed to go, it was also about the only location in the front of my car we could find room. I have found out the fan on that may actually be causing negative back pressure on the radiator and not allowing proper cooling, so I need to relocate that, or switch to the B&M if it will fit.

I still have the stock upper grill, which also was not an issue previously, so need to change that as well as installing hood vents to get more air moving.

Oddly enough the only cooling issues I initially had were the tranny, engine cooling issues never started until I upgraded to the Fluidyne stuff last year. factory stuff I never had an issue....

You started off with a simple auto tranny cooling problem, that then morphed into a gong show. With the thicker Fluidyne eng rad in there, you now don't have room to sandwich the oem tranny rad in front of it. The mishimoto cooler by itself doesn't have enough capacity to cool the auto tranny. The oem eng rad ducting, aka shrouding / cowling /flaring...that goes around the perimeter of the oem eng fan...( and back end of eng rad)...is the key to airflow. Remove the cowling, and the airflow through the oen eng fan is screwed up. Fan will then have this tendency to draw air in... between the back end of Fluidyne rad perimeter... and front end of fan blades. ( air comes in through the sides, which is the path of least resistance). You end up losing all your back pressure capabilities of the oem eng fan. Resulting airflow drops like a rock. That's why ford used the cowling /shroud in the 1st place.

It's then all made worse by the increased thickness of the Fluidyne eng rad core.... and also the increased thickness of the Fluidyne thicker HE core. All that extra core thickness impedes airflow, increases back pressure, causing the oem eng fan to compensate by sucking air in around the edges of the front end of fan blades. The fan on the Mishimoto tranny rad cooler will also impede airflow. Then toss in the restrictive oem upper grille, and that's the sum total root cause of your heating issues.

If you do add heat extractors on the hood, I dunno if the GT-500 ones would even fit, since the 2010 GT uses the raised..."domed hood". The ideal place for hood extractors is where Ford put em on the GT-500, which is just aft of the eng rad. That's a lower pressure point on the top side of the hood. The roush types that are inline with the hood, and oriented front to back, on either side will fit on the 2010 domed hood, and may be your only other practical option. (AM sells that type).

Unfortunately you have boxed yourself into a corner, and made everything worse. If you had started from scratch, the only item really needed is the 3/4" thick B+M tranny cooler, simply installed below the oem tranny cooler..and plumbed in series with the oem tranny rad.

The other issue on the 2010 is the oem power steering cooler 'rad'. It uses round fins, and is sandwiched tight, between front of oem AC rad... and behind the HE. Power steering rad is located at the bottom. It's all a tight squeeze in oem format. After looking at it from every possible angle, taking rad top cover off, measuring clearances etc, I dumped the idea of a thicker eng rad, and also a thicker HE, or a 2nd roush HE..or adding a 18" fan behind the OEM roush HE, etc. That power steering cooler mucks things up, as does any thicker eng rad.

 

[Gabe]

They're converting the A6 into a 4-speed? I thought the A6 was plenty stout enough as it was?

They have a new 4R200 gearset that's a 4-speed, fits inside the 6R80's case, and it takes over 1,000 hp with easy drivability

 

[JJ427R]

I do have the Ford Racing Radiator Fan, but you as well as a couple others have made me aware of the backpressure thing and I have to get some shrouding back around the radiator.

This all comes back to my original start of this thread not trusting these vendors telling you this will bolt right in and improve things greatly.