Best cams

[DzH5tang]

Hey all, sorry if this is in the wrong place or already discussed but I haven’t found anything answering my specific question.

I have a 2005 GT 5 speed with a cold air intake, long tube headers, cat back exhaust. Intake manifold is stock. Looking to get cams and want to know the best choice and if it’s worth doing anything else before I even do the cams like upgrading the manifold or throttle body. Looking for good lope more than performance gains. Car is mostly a weekend cruiser. So far Detroit rockers or ford performance are looking like the best choice for me. I’d probably prefer to keep stock springs and such but we will see. Any thoughts would be appreciated thanks.

 

[MrBhp]

If I was doing cams purely for lope, I would probably go with Mutha Thumpr's. They have a killer lope. They are also expensive. Personally, I feel that a rear gear is a necessity before cams.

 

[MrBhp]

 

[Midlife Crises]

I ran Detroit Rockers for a while. Their not as bumpy as the Mothers but do offer a nice lope. I had them with and without cats and they had very good drivability with a manual and 3.73 gears. The tune was from Brenspeed and I was very happy with the performance. Somewhere between 20 and 30 HP gain with throttle body, cold air intake and Kooks long tubes all tuned together. The VVT remained active as well as the intake port plates and no spring change is required.

 

[whitmanink]

i have mutha thumpers
you must get a tune and charge motion delete and phaser loc out. but the result?
everyone with any sense of taste will be giving you a thumbs up at every stop light ,
and look at your s197 and wonder what beast is under the hood..
car is rocking at idle ,, chop \chop\chop\chop..

the mutha thumpers will yeild about 27-30 hp
the fords about 21hp and the Detroit about 22-23hp

but you want pretty much just sound , go with ford hot rod or detrot rockers ..
they add some nice sound,, **pre school if next to a mutha thumper cam **

and the ford hot rod doesn't require phaser loc outs , or cmdp, heck i dont even think a tune is required ?

so for the path of least resistance id go with the Detroit or ford hotrod,,
they are pretty much the same specs so whichever is cheapest

 

[GlassTop09]

I ran Detroit Rockers for a while. Their not as bumpy as the Mothers but do offer a nice lope. I had them with and without cats and they had very good drivability with a manual and 3.73 gears. The tune was from Brenspeed and I was very happy with the performance. Somewhere between 20 and 30 HP gain with throttle body, cold air intake and Kooks long tubes all tuned together. The VVT remained active as well as the intake port plates and no spring change is required.

My 2 cents...............+1 for the Brenspeed Detroit Rockers (made by Comp Cams for Brent White according to his requirements).....easiest to install (NSR & full VCT-compliant range thus no phaser limiters\lockouts needed), easiest of the lopey cams to tune for good drivability (a big deal if only looking for sound\chop over performance.........have modeled these cams using DynoSim 6 software & NA vers cam card data.......the results are pretty cut & dried when compared to other NSR\full VCT-compliant lopey cams....) & can make good power across the full RPM range for what they are as Midlife has pointed out.

If I hadn't run into a smoking deal on a NIB set of Ford Performance Hot Rod cams on EBay, these Detroit Rockers were the cams I was targeting to put in my Stang (Hot Rods came in second behind the Detroit Rockers thru modeling.........slightly more tricky to tune good drivability than Detroit Rockers but very easy to set up for WOT since Ford provides the recommended WOT VCT cam timing settings to use....).

If I was doing cams purely for lope, I would probably go with Mutha Thumpr's. They have a killer lope. They are also expensive. Personally, I feel that a rear gear is a necessity before cams.

The Comp Cams Mother Thumpers will certainly make more power overall, but the advent of having to use phaser limiters (limits VCT operating range to 20* retard max due to the very large overlap duration reducing exhaust valve piston-to-valve clearance) will make them harder to tune for good drivability (not impossible to achieve but will take more time to dial in......), but they will most certainly sound off w\ the chop.

Drivability is IMHO the main price paid to run 3V lopey cams that limit the full range of VCT w\o an increase in lift > .500" (between .450" to .500" lift, stock 3V cyl head's intake port CFM flow stalls at 280 CFM w\ C of D (coeff of discharge--measurement of port energy or velocity) dropping from .50 to .45.......verifying the stalled port velocity flow.........wonder why so many aftermarket NSR\full VCT-compliant 3V cams keep lift at .450" & try to use increased overlap duration to offset this issue......IOW's a crutch due to the 3V cyl head intake port design & 1 of the reasons why Ford incorporated CMCV's in OEM intake manifold at the entrance to 3V cyl head intake ports to compensate...........removing the CMCV's does NOT resolve this issue in the 3V cyl head intake ports..........neither will porting them as the intake port is already too large to accommodate the 2 intake valves.......only makes this worse.....only "remedy" if CMCV's are removed is advancing ignition timing to offset the stratified air\fuel charge that is a result of this issue as 3V cyl head intake ports\combustion chambers have no port mechanisms\chamber quench or squish to induce adequate tumble\swirl\movement into incoming air\fuel\exhaust-reversioned mix to fully homogenize the air\fuel charge along w\ any exhaust reversion once it enters the chambers during the intake to compression stroke to promote full, fast & clean fuel burn rate......this is where the low RPM TQ loss comes from.......a stratified air\fuel mix burns slower thus needs increased ignition timing to make the same TQ vs a homogenous air\fuel mix, but due to the increased ignition timing causing more post ignition counter force applied to piston still coming up during last part of compression stroke to TDC offsetting the prior piston's force applied during actual power stroke AND flywheel inertial momentum along w\ increased heat transfer into cyl head\water jacket due to longer burn time causing a net loss of TQ.......cyl pressure is the key, not ignition timing......simple physics application.....no way around this........only other remedy when CMCV's are removed is FI........).

FWIW...............................

PS edit..............Forgot to also mention that a stratified air\fuel mix is far more prone to knock than a homogenous air\fuel mix thus can cause further TQ loss due to having to decrease ignition timing due to potential onset of knock...........

 

[Laga]

The Detroit Rockers give decent performance, but Brenspeed’s tune is dogshit if you are looking for that old school lope sound.
Here is my 05 on Brenspeed’s tune.

Here is same car, 30 minutes later with a tune from Lito.

My car was not driveable with Brenspeed’s tune as it would die trying to back out of driveway. Had to start and let sit for ten minutes to fully warm up before I could move it. The exhaust would burn your eyes it was so rich.

 

[07 Boss]

Never understood the quest for a purposely lopey cam. The reason why cams get that choppy sound is because your car is running rough. The shitty idle is due to the increased overlap as we strive to produce more power in the upper ranges. It is a byproduct and sacrifice you have to make to run them.

But on the advice side, cams should be used to bring all your mods together to work well with one another and should be one of your last mods unless you have a complete build plan. Other wise I would wait and see what your needs are, that should be the determining factor in which cams to get, not how they sound. But to each their own.

 

[StockishS197]

If you want sound, easy install and easiest/most common to tune? Ford Racing Hot Rods or Brenspeed Detroit Rockers. I have ran the Hot Rods in two of my 3vs and with a good tune, drivability is almost like stock. They are for the most part very similar in sound and power outputs. Plugging Dinos dyno runs here: https://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/Mustang2006GT/Dyno.html

They work with the stock VCT and are NSR so they literally bolt right in, and have only mild torque loss.

Most others from comp are either VSR and/or need phaser limiters/lockouts which complicates install slightly and also kills low end. Up to you on whether the high RPM gains are worth it. They are also harder to tune.

The FRPP intake manifold isn’t worth the expense for most over stock or stock with CMDPs. I recently went from CMDPs to the FRPP mani and it pulls slightly better up top, sounds a little cooler and looks great and was worth it to me, but it’s certainly not necessary. The TB is pretty much worthless in terms of gains.

 

[whitmanink]

fyi,,
the mutha thumper's require 3.73 or 4.10 .. gears
the low end loss is pretty much gone then

 

[Forty61]

I went with the Hot Rod cams and 3.73s, they sound great at idle, had a lot of compliments on them.

My only complaint has been that the low RPM driveability is not great, more so just coming off idle with it, could be the tune I have or other things playing into it but it's certainly not a deal breaker.

 

[jbpellegrino]

I've had both the Ford Performance Hot Rod cams as well as the Mutha Thumpr cams (current). Both were tuned by Lito.

FRPP cams left me wanting more. I also wanted the cams pretty much solely for the chop. Mutha Thumprs give a respectable amount more HP up top, but the low end loss is definitely recognizable during daily driving. If you're in the process of changing the cams, locking out the phasers really isn't that much more work and shouldn't be a point of worry. If anything, it would be a smart idea to get new phasers and lock those out. Phasers are prone to failure and are recommended to be replaced at the 100k-150k mile marker. Livernois Motorsports sells a small, inexpensive billet lockout kit that calls for disassembly of the phaser. It's what I did and I'd recommend it to anyone heading down the same path.

Also, stage 1 & 2 Thumpr cams are NSR (No springs required). Stage 3 requires aftermarket/ported heads. Not worth it to me... Boost...

 

[Martin]

I went with the Hot Rod cams and 3.73s, they sound great at idle, had a lot of compliments on them.

My only complaint has been that the low RPM driveability is not great, more so just coming off idle with it, could be the tune I have or other things playing into it but it's certainly not a deal breaker.

Could you please expand on the drivability issue. I've been contemplating HotRod cams for my Bullitt purely for the sound, just don't want to look like dummy stalling and bucking in the traffic.
Cheers

 

[jbpellegrino]

Could you please expand on the drivability issue. I've been contemplating HotRod cams for my Bullitt purely for the sound, just don't want to look like dummy stalling and bucking in the traffic.
Cheers

I think that as long as you are able to understand the basics of a stick shift - modulation of the clutch based on throttle position, load, rpm, etc. - you will be okay. The lope of the cams make it easier to stall if you don’t give it enough gas while letting out (first gear only, the rest should be normal) the clutch.

As whitmanink mentioned, it is common to use CMDPs with the Thumpr cams. This changes the low end torque (and therefor throttle response) in the low RPM. This makes starting out in first gear different, which can lead to bucking and stalling if you don’t get a hang of how to handle the clutch with the new cams.

 

[whitmanink]

I think that as long as you are able to understand the basics of a stick shift - modulation of the clutch based on throttle position, load, rpm, etc. - you will be okay. The lope of the cams make it easier to stall if you don’t give it enough gas while letting out (first gear only, the rest should be normal) the clutch.

As whitmanink mentioned, it is common to use CMDPs with the Thumpr cams. This changes the low end torque (and therefor throttle response) in the low RPM. This makes starting out in first gear different, which can lead to bucking and stalling if you don’t get a hang of how to handle the clutch with the new cams.

as long as you have 373 or 410 gears , it really isnt much to get going from a stop..

infact i still every now and again stall my wifes wrx,, but never my mustang?

you can order a loc out kit from amazon like i did,, was a fraction of the other guys kits and also comes with timing tools (like $40)

and to be clear ,, the ford hot rod cams require no mods ,

the mutha thumpers require, phaser loc outs, cmdp, 3.37 or 4.10 gears ,and a tune ..

that said if you are keeping the stock gearing , it may be a bi*ch to get going from a stop..

also when comming to a stop ,you want to put the clutch in before you drop below 2000 rpm because the overlap of the cams

 

[whitmanink]

i agree as well with anything other than phaser loc outs and cmdp ,gearing and a tune aren't worth it .. adding springs and ported heads for the cost of hp gained ,, not good,,,
boost is the only way to go

 

[Forty61]

Could you please expand on the drivability issue. I've been contemplating HotRod cams for my Bullitt purely for the sound, just don't want to look like dummy stalling and bucking in the traffic.
Cheers

It honestly could be in my tune or my shitty driving but it really only manifests at near-idle RPM when you gently open the throttle, I'm talking like just resting your foot on the gas pedal. If I don't give it a hair more gas from a stop or if I'm kind of lugging the engine in traffic and go from engine braking to part throttle it can sometimes get a little jerky.

My car is, in all honesty, old and worn. It could be a vacuum issue related to the cam at low RPM, it could be a bad seal somewhere, it could be any number of things on my car. It's never been a deal breaker, car runs good overall and pulls hard in the upper RPM. Don't let me stop you on them, I'm certain your car is in better shape than mine is!

 

[Martin]

Thank you.

 

[Midlife Crises]

My experience with the Detroit Rockers with active VVT and CMDP is the car ran very well. Instant acceleration from idle to wide open. Never bucked or rattled. The car would slow role through a parking lot without jerking and pulling away from a stop sign was just like stock. I enjoyed the more aggressive idle sound and the engine seemed eager to run. It always felt like everything was working together and I would not hesitate to run the DR cams again.
I have also experienced the down side of being “over cammed”. Engine that runs great above 4,000, has no useful torque down low, can’t get away from a stop sign without revving the engine and slipping the clutch or just launch like a mad man. Having to install a vacuum pump because the overlap kills idle vacuum and you want the breaks to work. The serious jerking and lunging that takes place when you try to slow role through a parking lot or a side street is annoying. But dam, it sure sounds good at idle and let’s not forget the 7,500 rpm scream.
At the very least choose cams that do not require locking out the phasers. You will appreciate the very useful low end torque.
Just my view from being on both ends of this subject.

 

[whitmanink]

oh yea ,,
midlife did remind me,
i did get a gt 500 brake booster because i would loose braking if you had to pump the breaks., or brake alot of times in a short amount of time,,, they would get hard and not stop the car nomore..

that was fun the first few times i didnt realize it was gonna happen..

so a gt 500 brake booster was also needed with the mutha thumpers,,
i also did a remote cutch line res as well .but not needed.

so for the mutha thumpers ,, cmdp,,,tune..gears , gt500 brake booster and loc outs .
are required .

youtuber named 4eyes had the DR cams so you can see his experience with them,
he actually had drivability issues at idle while rolling,, it was bucking hard ..

that said it could be a tune.,, the lito tunes seem to be better ,, foureyes didnt have a lito tune so maybe that is a variable ?

im gonna turbo my car so i have plans and am doing things different then some would..
but the path of least resistance is the ford hot rod cams as no mods are needed whatsoever,,

followed by the DR cams , and the most expensive but most gain (not cheapest) is the mutha thumpers