Broken block? Check this out

[beefcake]

I'd have to ask about how much testing its seen.

For all wither of know, it could have seen 100 dyno pulls

I believe the cars back with Justin in Indiana,

there would be no reason to have 100 dyno pulls on the car, it was put together fast.

again, if it lives out their consistently running for a year, that's good stuff

2 months and only 2 or 3 trips to the track, doesn't mean anything. again, the bracing is just a different form of bracing than ford did. it's still the same "block" and the "block" structurally isn't strong enough for those power levels long term. it just isn't

Hopefully lightweight, turbo, and a brake allow for an 8.99 without stressing the stock block too much. I just want that slip and I'll be happy. Doing it at 3150 has to be easier on parts than 3700

at that weight, you def don't need to make as much power. I can't see any reason you shouldn't be well into the 8's

 

[tjm73]

Didn't see this coming. Blocks still failed? Damn.

 

[Sky Render]

Didn't see this coming. Blocks still failed? Damn.

Yeah, unfortunately aluminum just isn't as strong as steel. Gone are the days of stock blocks making quad-digit horsepower levels reliably.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[psfracer]

Yeah, unfortunately aluminum just isn't as strong as steel. Gone are the days of stock blocks making quad-digit horsepower levels reliably.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

Yeah but the 3V block didn't have any of these problems.

 

[psfracer]

I don't see longevity wise it being any different. we didn't have issues in the cylinder wall, the valley actually cracked on our engine.

I believe the bracing just transferred the stress elsewhere in the block.

that's why at this point, we opted for a filled block.

Wow, you are full of good news, aren't you.....

I agree with you on the longevity. 2 or 3 trips to the track really doesn't prove anything with regards to the block.

 

[CPRsm]

I think a lot has to do w tune than most give credit. You can break ANYTHING when knocking. Power adder helps. less power for the same rwhp mark w a turbo. Justin's has been alive a while, with a stick no less. Moby Dick has been doing blast after blast in Mexico at about 1100rwhp now for a while. Including racing his turbo busa lol
Like the difference between walking across the old rickety bridge, and jumping rope while crossing it LOL

 

[tjm73]

Here's a 4.6 shortblock for comparison.

 

[Bud]

I think a lot has to do w tune than most give credit. You can break ANYTHING when knocking. Power adder helps. less power for the same rwhp mark w a turbo. Justin's has been alive a while, with a stick no less. Moby Dick has been doing blast after blast in Mexico at about 1100rwhp now for a while. Including racing his turbo busa lol
Like the difference between walking across the old rickety bridge, and jumping rope while crossing it LOL

A person has to hope that helps

 

[beefcake]

I think a lot has to do w tune than most give credit. You can break ANYTHING when knocking. Power adder helps. less power for the same rwhp mark w a turbo. Justin's has been alive a while, with a stick no less. Moby Dick has been doing blast after blast in Mexico at about 1100rwhp now for a while. Including racing his turbo busa lol
Like the difference between walking across the old rickety bridge, and jumping rope while crossing it LOL

I don't think turbo has anything to do with it.

turbo cars have broken these blocks already too.

Not sure what being a stick has to do with block longevity?

Bottom line, consistent track pounding is what's going to tell the tale on block longevity. How many passes has the car made down the track?

The reason the blocks are going is because the cylinders are egging because of the thing cylinder wall. A little bracing helps that some, but it's not going to ultimately solve the problem, The thin cylinders are still there, they are still wanting to egg.

The bracing does help some. Obviously if Ford didn't think there was an issue marketing the block in it's current state, they wouldn't be back at the drawing board.

 

[stkjock]

I believe the cars back with Justin in Indiana,

there would be no reason to have 100 dyno pulls on the car, it was put together fast.

again, if it lives out their consistently running for a year, that's good stuff

2 months and only 2 or 3 trips to the track, doesn't mean anything. again, the bracing is just a different form of bracing than ford did. it's still the same "block" and the "block" structurally isn't strong enough for those power levels long term. it just isn't



at that weight, you def don't need to make as much power. I can't see any reason you shouldn't be well into the 8's

Fact is you really don't know Terry. IMO, your sponsor is a competitor to L&M, so you are getting some influence there.

I'm not saying I'm unbiased as I'm friends with Mike.

However, from what I understand, there are 3 1000+ Coyotes with the L&M modified blocks. There have been 100s of dyno pulls, why?, testing. It's certainly easier if one owns a dyno, to strap the car down and make pulls to test vs. loading up and going to the track, not to mention cost factors.

Additionally there are at least six more modded blocks out there that are in the very high triple digits or low four digit area. So far no failures. These blocks have been out and running since April.

Now true time will tell, I just dont think it's a fair statement to question the longevity, neither of us is knowledgeable enough to be definitive about it.

Here's a 4.6 shortblock for comparison.

the 3v block has more material in the water jacket area.

 

[Wicked97]

Not sure what being a stick has to do with block longevity?

Bottom line, consistent track pounding is what's going to tell the tale on block longevity. How many passes has the car made down the track?


.

the stick honestly has alot to do with it. The shock that the crank shaft takes when you drop a clutch 4 times in one run with over 1200 HP.

Unlike these Stock Auto Cars that you are never really shocking the engine its just a smooth roll down the track.

So ask any "REAL" engine builder what they think the difference is between the 2 setups

SO either way Yes we have not been in the 8s because our front half number pretty much suck. Its making the power to do it but have not gotten it to the ground yet.

We have a few tricks up our sleeve and plan on some major changes here in the near future.

Any way carry on. I was just reporting that our block is still alive!

oh and yes the car made 1280 ish real wheel

 

[stkjock]

Oh yeah, forgot to address the stick/auto comments. I think Eric covered it well.

Thanks for the info Eric on the HP. Impressive

 

[beefcake]

Fact is you really don't know Terry. IMO, your sponsor is a competitor to L&M, so you are getting some influence there.

I'm not saying I'm unbiased as I'm friends with Mike.

However, from what I understand, there are 3 1000+ Coyotes with the L&M modified blocks. There have been 100s of dyno pulls, why?, testing. It's certainly easier if one owns a dyno, to strap the car down and make pulls to test vs. loading up and going to the track, not to mention cost factors.

Additionally there are at least six more modded blocks out there that are in the very high triple digits or low four digit area. So far no failures. These blocks have been out and running since April.

Now true time will tell, I just dont think it's a fair statement to question the longevity, neither of us is knowledgeable enough to be definitive about it.

the 3v block has more material in the water jacket area.

that has 0 to do with it. I like Mike a lot, and mike is a great engine builder. I refer customer in that part of the country to Mike all the time, so you are way off base there.

I think it's very fair to questions something that simply hasn't been "time proven" yet.

5 months? 5 months is not a long time, unless the cars have been seeing track duty just about every single weekend.

You can't say something that has been around for a few months has proven itself longevity wise, because their simply isn't any longevity there.

Everyone has their own opinion. To me, longevity would be a "block" not necessarily the components of the block, that will hold up to at least 2 years of regular track running / mile blasts, etc..

Lets see these cars out 2-3 times a month for a year or better, and then we can start using terms in reference to them holding up over time, because at that point, they will have time behind them.

And i'm not picking on L&M "in general", i'm talking about the block in general. Has nothing to do with l&m, or ford's version, or rich groh's version. it has to do with the block.

I referenced testing the mmr block because the actual sleeves where the egging start are thicker, and are "supposed" to hold up better. Again. I have no experience with their unfilled block at these levels, nor what else ford has planned. So, I can't say for sure they will last either.

As far as the "stick" shocking the crank. No one has issues with the crank. They have had issues with the cylinder walls egging and causing cracks between the water jackets, and in the valley. I don't see a stick egging the cylinders any more than an auto car.

 

[beefcake]

the stick honestly has alot to do with it. The shock that the crank shaft takes when you drop a clutch 4 times in one run with over 1200 HP.

Unlike these Stock Auto Cars that you are never really shocking the engine its just a smooth roll down the track.

So ask any "REAL" engine builder what they think the difference is between the 2 setups

SO either way Yes we have not been in the 8s because our front half number pretty much suck. Its making the power to do it but have not gotten it to the ground yet.

We have a few tricks up our sleeve and plan on some major changes here in the near future.

Any way carry on. I was just reporting that our block is still alive!

oh and yes the car made 1280 ish real wheel

I'm sure you'll get there once you swap the trans out, you have the power and the weight, should be easy once you swap.

Again, wasn't singling you guys out, or anything, just simply stating that none of these setups have had the "time" to prove themselves.

Most people that were putting a lot of track times to these engines were staying around the 800 mark, were living fine, once everyone started going for that 1000 hp mark, they started breaking. All these new bracings were supposed to be the saving grace, but again, just not enough time to say that.

I datalogged all the runs on the car, and even the run where the valley went, the car was running perfect, all the logs looked great, no detonation in the cylinders, no timing being pulled, everything was spot on.

Time will tell.

 

[CPRsm]

I don't think turbo has anything to do with it.

turbo cars have broken these blocks already too.

Not sure what being a stick has to do with block longevity?

Eric explained some of it. Sticks are harder on engines, and turbos are easier. Always have been. The sudden rpm change from dropping the clutch is more violent with no converter to cushion it. Turbos can still break blocks. You like putting words in peoples mouths lol. Point was on a turbo car and blower car making the same rwhp, a blower car needs to make more power. Which equals more stress. Back pressure in the exhuast helps reduce stress on the block and rotating assembly. Anything that stresses, or distorts the block makes other parts weaker. Stick car, high rpm, rev limters, it all plays a role.
I think a great deal of the longevity has a lot to do with the tune myself. Old 5 liters would make a great deal more power Nd last long with an auto and a turbo than anything. But you could still rattle it at 450rwhpand split the block. Some guy did it at 400rwhpN/A spinning it to 7k+.

 

[Wicked97]

for the record i was not implying that anyone was having a crank shaft issue. What im getting its the violent nature of a stick. Your dropping the clutch banging gears and all and all its hard on shit.

Either way i am in agreeance that turbos are generally easier on stuff. Hell i just saw a turbo 4.6 go in to the 5.30-5.40 range with h beams. Stuff lasts longer with a turbo and thats a fact.

 

[beefcake]

Eric explained some of it. Sticks are harder on engines, and turbos are easier. Always have been. The sudden rpm change from dropping the clutch is more violent with no converter to cushion it. Turbos can still break blocks. You like putting words in peoples mouths lol. Point was on a turbo car and blower car making the same rwhp, a blower car needs to make more power. Which equals more stress. Back pressure in the exhuast helps reduce stress on the block and rotating assembly. Anything that stresses, or distorts the block makes other parts weaker. Stick car, high rpm, rev limters, it all plays a role.
I think a great deal of the longevity has a lot to do with the tune myself. Old 5 liters would make a great deal more power Nd last long with an auto and a turbo than anything. But you could still rattle it at 450rwhpand split the block. Some guy did it at 400rwhpN/A spinning it to 7k+.

Thanks for explaining that, I didn't realize superchargers took horsepower to turn...

Our block cracked at 1079 rwhp. That was with a s/c, so probably making more power at the crank, but using it to spin the s/c. No issues with the tune. No knock in the datalogs, everything was just where we wanted it.

Other than seeing some coolant in the valley, there was no way to tell that there was an issue as the car just came off a great pass.

I think tune has a ton to do with it. I remember when mike cracked 3 blocks with a turbo, 2 of which were built a couple years back due to a tune issue.

The simple fact, at the end of the day. Is the blocks, no ones, not fords', not mmr's, not groh's, not mikes, not anyones' has been out for long enough to say they will hold up to time. To say anything else is just premature.

 

[beefcake]

for the record i was not implying that anyone was having a crank shaft issue. What im getting its the violent nature of a stick. Your dropping the clutch banging gears and all and all its hard on shit.

Either way i am in agreeance that turbos are generally easier on stuff. Hell i just saw a turbo 4.6 go in to the 5.30-5.40 range with h beams. Stuff lasts longer with a turbo and thats a fact.

I know you weren't.

 

[CPRsm]

Thanks for explaining that, I didn't realize superchargers took horsepower to turn...

You sure about that? Your words not mine.

I don't think turbo has anything to do with it.

Idk that I trust the knock sensors on E85 to be honest. I pull plugs either way. Did the last engine show knock?

 

[stkjock]

You can't say something that has been around for a few months has proven itself longevity wise, because their simply isn't any longevity there.

Longevity, IMO, is not strictly about a length of time. It can be simulated. As I said, time will tell, then proof will be in the pudding or a puddle.


As to L&M, I was aware of your view, my comment was strictly due to the fact that your view is influenced by what your discussions with MMR have been. I think all of our views are influenced by those around us.

Wishing you continued success.