CobraRed's HPDE-DD Build Thread

CobraRed

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I have most of the rear parts in, just waiting for the BMR adjst. PHB to show up tmw to bolt it all together. I bought a used BMR PHB as a stop gap until my Watts shows up from BMR, then I'll sell my PHB.

The UCA is pretty easy to access if you're taking every other piece out like I am. There's a ton of room to work and I have the car's frame on jackstands with a jack under the diff to move around and lift when needed. Air tools make this a boarderline just enjoyable process when you have two sets of hands. The last UCA bolt still isnt tight as the car hasnt sat down yet in order to torque it.

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The LCA brackets which I also just installed a lot more trouble, i've heard of the bushing having trouble going into the brackets with poly bushings, I'm not sure if these elastomeric's are worse in fit - but getting the first passenger side LCA in (with full ability to move the whole axle around where I please) was a pain. It took some wood+persuader pounding and leverage to slide it into place even with grease applied.

My brother, who's been nice enough to lend a hand, complimented me on the McDonalds color scheme I seem to have going. Currently have the rear shocks set at 5/18 clicks.
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Have the front struts/coils and endlinks out. Seems like the sway install will be simple, it's just the attaching the endlink to the sway once there's vehicle and driver weight in the car that may get tricky I imagine.

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That's for another day. Getting hot outside.
 
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Boaisy

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The sound deadening under the rear seats, where the UCA mounts, and over the differential in the trunk. Everything still fits back together nicely.

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Any noticeable difference with this? I may do it to mine.
 

CobraRed

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I've never seen it done and I have yet to even set the car down. Kelly/BMR says the UCA spherical basically just amplifies diff noise when set up correctly, and the axle hump and seat bowls are basically sheet metal drums happy to amplify NVH with only the seats trying to stop it. I expect the mat to do a decent job of it compared to just bare sheet metal.
 

CobraRed

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What did you use? Dynamat? I'm anxious to hear if it worked as well

It's on the first page.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2221371&postcount=12

80 Mil GTMat. It's basically a more affordable Dynamat copy. I used it because my last track dedicated build had a good amount of this stuff and fire-proof matting and the GTMat held up well over time. They also make 110 Mil but it's not as easily contoured and I was worried about the seats fitting back on top of the stuff.
 

CobraRed

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Have mostly everything in. The front end ride height is set and looks good at 14.3-14.4" top of fender well to center of hub, not sure how much drop that is. Just need to line up the endlinks to the sway with someone in the car now.

The rear end is wonky. My 1st choice was a BMR Watts which isnt being sent out yet. So I bought a BMR PHB last Thursday. Was due yesterday, then moved to today, now this:
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And tmw is the 4th. So not sure when I'll be seeing it. I have the OEm PHB in now and it does the obvious kick out of the driver's side reara good deal, but something else is weird too. With the KW perches set even the passenger side rear is significantly lower than the driver's side. I lowered the perch a lot on the driver's side and it's still higher than the passenger side.

I'm guessing this as an additional effect of using the OEM PHB on a set-up like this.
 
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Norm Peterson

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Did you disconnect both sta-bars when you were adjusting the KW perches? If not, you were probably wasting most of your effort in preloading the bars with little visible ride height change.

It is also possible for the OE PHB to add a smallish upward force if you didn't loosen its bolts while you were tinkering with the rear ride heights/CO settings.


Norm
 

CobraRed

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I effectively cant loosen the PHB while i fiddle because if it adjust out of its range I wouldnt be able to get it back in there.

As for the rear sway do you mean disconnect the links or disconnect it entirely?
 

CobraRed

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Just completely disconnected the rear sway, the passenger side is still like .8" lower than the drivers despite the perch on the drivers being lower.
 

Norm Peterson

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I effectively cant loosen the PHB while i fiddle because if it adjust out of its range I wouldnt be able to get it back in there.
I'm confused. You don't have to remove the PHB, just loosen the two bolts so it can find its new position where its bushings have no static preload (think bushing torsion). The axle won't go anywhere unless the PHB bushings already have some preload in them that you release when you loosen the PHB bolts. Never mind that the fixed-length OE PHB won't let the axle end up "wrong" even if you did remove it entirely. Incidentally, there is a cheapie DIY approach to stiffening PHB bushings if you don't get your shipment in time. It's not as good as what you're waiting on, and it might have a shorter service life, but it's better than doing nothing (and it will stand up to track time at least on street tires).

As for the rear sway do you mean disconnect the links or disconnect it entirely?
Both bars. Up front all you need to do is disconnect one end of one endlink. Out back I'd disconnect either both axle-side brackets (and let the bar ends drop) or both chassis side clamps (where the bar's center will drop). You don't want any roll stiffness artificially affecting the adjustments you're trying to make. Yes, there might end up being a little "chasing your tail" in that adjusting the rear spring perches will affect the front tires' corner weights if you're doing this with cornerweighting scales.


Norm
 

CobraRed

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Just loosened the PHB bolts until they could be moved by hand, no change yet:doh2:
 

SoundGuyDave

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You don't want any roll stiffness artificially affecting the adjustments you're trying to make. Yes, there might end up being a little "chasing your tail" in that adjusting the rear spring perches will affect the front tires' corner weights if you're doing this with cornerweighting scales.


Norm


Hell, that's normal! "Everything depends on everything else." When it comes to corner-weighting the car, it's an iterative process. First, disconnect the swaybars to eliminate preload as a variable. Second, set up the car properly. If you're doing a serious competition-style corner-weighting session (no point, otherwise) then you need the car in AS-RACED condition. No junk in the trunk, floormats out, "driver ballast" in the seat, FULL tank of fuel, race tires at operating pressure (hot, not cold). Third, adjust gross ride-height to where you want the car to sit. Next, adjust your alignment to track spec. Then adjust the perches to get the cross-weights as close to null as possible. Then re-set the alignment. Curse, and re-adjust the perches for cross-weight. Lather, rinse, repeat, seek therapy, visit a bar. Come back in the morning and try again...

It takes time, patience, and COPIOUS note-taking. As a final step, re-connect the sways, then null out the preload. Now the car is set up properly. Of course, that'll change as soon as you start burning fuel, or if you eat a solid meal before driving... ;-)
 

CobraRed

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I'm familiar with corner weighting just because I was curious with my last platform and researched it, but it's never something I would consider doing myself and I obviously don't have the equipment. There's a popular guy around here for this, and I'll need to get my name on the list. Until that time, I just want to get the car at least even, haha.

Proper parts would help.
 

CobraRed

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With it all together and OEM PHB, there's still some noticeable things that impress me. Ride is not harsh at all, the provided springs rates aren't crazy to begin with but definitely stiffer than stock so it's nice to find they are well composed on city streets. The front coil-overs at 10/18 and rears at 5 seem to play well right now with the huge BMR front bar at only the 2nd hole out of 5 - then again I havent tested them very harshly yet. Brake dive is zero, gone. Such a tremendous feeling to be flat when braking, can't be overstated.
The ride is very quiet. Havent heard a peep out of the coilovers. The UCA is transmitting no diff NVH into the cabin at all. 90% of my 20 min drive I heard nothing at all, last 10% I decided to roll the windows up just in case and you can definitley make out the UCA bearing over bumps and ruts. I set the pinion angle damn near perfect and the jam nuts are torqued to hell with loctite. The noise isn't from the UCA bearing hitting the bracket anyways, it's far to faint to be that. It's like a "thut-thut" over bump - def not a clang, clack, or bang. This something I didn't know was there until I rolled up the windows (my exhaust is just GT500 axle backs).
My suspicion is that any noise that is being made is being muffled by sound deadening because it is very faint and muffled, almost a distant noise. Can try to record it in the future.

Over large ruts in the road and quick corner banking changes the OEM PHB is really disrupting the rear. It sucks.

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2013DIBGT

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def not a clang, clack, or bang. Over large ruts in the road and quick corner banking changes the OEM PHB is really disrupting the rear. It sucks.

Yup.. And some will still have you believe the PHB approach is just as good as a Watts Link. Lol had to say it, to hell with the avoidance of ruffled feathers :poke: :bleh:

Nice car man, those Rotas are looking good indeed. It's always fun throwing a nice middle finger towards the Ricers whenever you can also when a muscle car looks better then their shit does using their own wheels :thumb:
 

SoundGuyDave

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Yup.. And some will still have you believe the PHB approach is just as good as a Watts Link. Lol had to say it, to hell with the avoidance of ruffled feathers :poke: :bleh:

Yeah, the "PHB'S SUCK!!!" has nothing to do with bushing compliance or roll center location. It all has to do with lateral axle motion, and let's face it, .080" is HUGE!!! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, guys, why can't we collectively get to the point where we're analyzing the suspension action enough to realize that it ain't the lateral compliance that matters here.

YES, the Watts has minutely better lateral location characteristics than a PHB. YES, the amount of tire carcass deflection absolutely DWARFS that differential. NO, the Watts isn't magic, made of fairy-dust and unobtainum, and welded with ignited unicorn farts. There is a reason that the Watts link behaves the way it does, and it has NOTHING to do with the lateral location characteristics...

If you hunt cones, the violent left-right transitions will be profitably improved by using a Watts, for a variety of reasons, the LEAST of which is lateral location stability. If, however, you prefer your motorsports above second gear, then the difference is diminished, to the point where the weight and complexity of the Watts becomes a serious factor to consider.

All I'm personally asking you guys to do is think, and come up with the real reason that a Watts is better (or not!) than a PHB. Hint: it isn't lateral location, or the ability to ride over bumps. Methinks that may be more in the tram-lining causality than anything else.

Disclaimers: While I have raced Watts-equipped S197s at speeds approaching/exceeding 140mph, I have been underwhelmed with the differential between them and a properly-bushed Panhard bar. Further disclaimer: In my world, cones are used with numbers attached to designate grid spots before a race, not to define a course in a parking lot. I have never autocrossed, nor do I honesly have any interest in doing so. I fault nobody for enjoying it, but it's not my addiction. Are there differences between autocross and road-racing? Oh, you better believe it... As an instructor, I can spot an autocrosser within the first two corners, and know, for a fact, that my neck will be more tender after a day of riding with them, then after slamming my own car into a guard-rail... ;-) A Watts link, to me, is an excellent source of static rear down-force, and not much more.
 

CobraRed

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I have no bold statements to make, just pointing out that when lowered 1.6-1.7" the stock PHB besides kicking out the driver's side and messing up ride height significantly also upsets the rear in some situations.

Very cool build and nice car

Thanks! I really appreciate it.
 
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2013DIBGT

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Yeah, the "PHB'S SUCK!!!" has nothing to do with bushing compliance or roll center location. It all has to do with lateral axle motion, and let's face it, .080" is HUGE!!! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, guys, why can't we collectively get to the point where we're analyzing the suspension action enough to realize that it ain't the lateral compliance that matters here.

YES, the Watts has minutely better lateral location characteristics than a PHB. YES, the amount of tire carcass deflection absolutely DWARFS that differential. NO, the Watts isn't magic, made of fairy-dust and unobtainum, and welded with ignited unicorn farts. There is a reason that the Watts link behaves the way it does, and it has NOTHING to do with the lateral location characteristics...

If you hunt cones, the violent left-right transitions will be profitably improved by using a Watts, for a variety of reasons, the LEAST of which is lateral location stability. If, however, you prefer your motorsports above second gear, then the difference is diminished, to the point where the weight and complexity of the Watts becomes a serious factor to consider.

All I'm personally asking you guys to do is think, and come up with the real reason that a Watts is better (or not!) than a PHB. Hint: it isn't lateral location, or the ability to ride over bumps. Methinks that may be more in the tram-lining causality than anything else.

Disclaimers: While I have raced Watts-equipped S197s at speeds approaching/exceeding 140mph, I have been underwhelmed with the differential between them and a properly-bushed Panhard bar. Further disclaimer: In my world, cones are used with numbers attached to designate grid spots before a race, not to define a course in a parking lot. I have never autocrossed, nor do I honesly have any interest in doing so. I fault nobody for enjoying it, but it's not my addiction. Are there differences between autocross and road-racing? Oh, you better believe it... As an instructor, I can spot an autocrosser within the first two corners, and know, for a fact, that my neck will be more tender after a day of riding with them, then after slamming my own car into a guard-rail... ;-) A Watts link, to me, is an excellent source of static rear down-force, and not much more.


Come on man, I didnt think anyone would fall for the bait but it seems to work everytime...:evillol:

Guess I was in the mood to stir the pot a bit :beer:
 

SoundGuyDave

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Okay, here's an example of what I'm talking about: Can you explain exactly what the mechanics are of how a PHB can "mess up ride height significantly?"

It's a lateral link. It's either in compression (chassis forces towards the driver's side) or tension (chassis forces towards the passenger side). It has no static vertical contribution, which would be needed if the link were to affect ride height at all, let alone "significantly." The ONLY contribution that it could make in terms of vertical load would be from bushing torsion. IE the bushing was "fixed" to the chassis at a higher ride height, and after lowering, the bushing now has potential energy stored up in it in the form of torsional energy. Given how soft those OE bushings are, the amount of energy stored will be minimal, with negligible effect on static ride height. To completely eliminate that as a variable, just loosen (not remove!) the two bolts that hold it to the chassis and axle (and nothing else: one variable at a time!), bounce the rear end a couple of times, then re-torque the bolts. Any bushing preload will be removed at that point. No change in static ride height? Didn't think so. Try looking elsewhere, like LCA bushing preload (MUCH more significant) or swaybar preload.

Honest, I'm not trying to pick on you (or anybody, really), but it drives me bat-shit when a part is blamed for things it couldn't possibly have any effect on. It's like saying that adding a torque arm makes the car corner flatter. It physically can't do that. Other factors (roll steer, %AS, roll center, etc.) certainly can, though.

1) "kicking out the driver's side" Is that a physical offset at static ride height you're describing? Yes significant lowering (and more than 1" or so is significant) can have that effect with a PHB, but it's not nearly as large an effect as people believe. Pythagorean theorem; do the math yourself if you don't believe me. IF you have a situation where tolerances are stacking up against you, then replacing the stock PHB with an adjustable-length piece (prefereably with rod ends for zero bushing compliance) will easily center the axle under the chassis. If you're referring to a dynamic action, where the car exhibits oversteer tendencies to the driver's side, then that is again less an effect of a PHB vs. Watts than it is a rear geometry issue. If your assertion were true, then any PHB car that is lowered significantly becomes essentially undrivable. To refute that, just take a look at any of the Boss302R/Boss302S cars, or the older FR500C/FR500GT/FR500S cars, and explain how they are able to turn laps as quickly as they do if they're so undrivable... See Grand Am Rolex Cup, Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, and the FIA GT Championships, where these cars are competing against other muscle cars, Porsche GT3's, BMW M3s, etc, and doing it successfully with a Panhard bar.

2) "Upsets the rear in some situations." Again, see above. I will happily grant you that the Watts can potentially show dramatic improvement in the handling characteristics in slalom-type situations, but for anything else, the root cause of the change is open for debate. Is it "Because Watts," or is it from the relocation in roll center, or the virtual elimination in bushing compliance vs. a stock PHB? For it to be a true test, you'd need to install the Watts with the same roll center location and net bushing compliance as the PHB under test, and as far as I could find, there isn't a Watts kit on the planet that offers those options. Going to a Watts will change a BUNCH of factors, some of which may mask other problems.

3) "Significantly messes up ride height." Again, it simply can't do that. The mechanics and geometry just won't allow that to happen.

Now, one could argue that relpacing the stock PHB with a Watts will simply cure all the ills, and they may be right, but that's kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If it's a bushing issue, then fix the bushings. If it's a geometry issue, fix the geometry. Don't just throw a large, heavy, complex piece of kit at it simply because it fixes those issues, AND fixes a bunch of stuff that isn't an issue. Do it because you understand how the rear suspension works, what causes the problems you're experiencing, and have made the rational decision that a Watts is the right way to go.

Example: If your AS% is screwed up, which leads to massive roll-steer, and all you do is replace the PHB with a Watts, the changed roll-center may effectively mask the roll-steer issue, but it doesn't fix it. Instead of adding $99 LCA relocation brackets, you've added a $900 hunk of machinery instead. The net effect (Car's on rails, yo!) may be the same at a given level of lateral load, but once you start to push the car harder, that damned roll-steer starts to rear it's ugly head again. But... But... But... I have a Watts! That can't happen! Well, it did. Why? Not because a Watts sucks, and not because a PHB sucks, but because you lowered the car and induced a geometry problem that has gone uncorrected.

It's the age-old saw: Treat the problem, not the symptom. But, to treat the problem, you need to correctly identify it, and to do that requires knowledge and understanding of the rear suspension operating as a system. Then, and only then, you can intelligently make decisions to change one or two factors that may be giving you the sub-optimal performance that bugs you in the first place. Using a Watts to cover up geometry or bushing issues is akin to replacing the front suspension with an SLA kit to cure bump-steer. Yeah, it'll do it, but there are better, simpler ways of accomplishing the same thing. Oh, and yes, an SLA has huge advantages over a McStrut suspension, but you don't see a mass migration to Griggs, do you? I wonder why that is. ;-)

Again, I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm trying to get you (and anybody reading this) to think, and to learn. That's all. It's actually pretty coincidental that the Watts vs. PHB has become the soap-box on which that's happening.
 
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