DiMora's Build Thread

[thump_rrr]

They left me a voice-mail. I typed this as I played it...they said:

"On the M142 alloy...9 pounds of boost would be no issue, we have guys running up to 15 on that. Now the issue is the 11.5:1 with the 9 pounds of boost on gasoline...we do not recommend that high compression with that boost level...now if you're running alcohol, guys have been getting by with it on alcohol. Not sure what type of fuel you are using, bu the M142 alloy is definitely a good alloy - SuperCobraJets run that allow on all the parts we make for those guys and they are having good consistence with that."

I think that is a good, conservative approach for a manufacturer to take...and I may well just put this build on the corn...but the more I study this, the more I think I'll be fine with 93 octane and reasonable timing of 17 degrees or so maximum. My tuner can keep my knock sensors enabled, and I also have a Snow Performance Stage 3 meth system on the car I can leverage...maybe I'll buy the safe-injection module that dumps boost (opens bypass valve) if meth flow is not detected.

Take a look at the J&S Safeguard Vampire.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/VampirePage/Vampire.html
I'm thinking of going with one on my new engine.

 

[DiMora]

I'm collecting CR / Boost / Timing in this thread: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121142

I built a spreadsheet so I can do analysis and averages.

Results so far:

Looks like most people run an average effective CR of:

17.13 with 93 octane
21.36 with E85

With 11.5:1 CR and 13 PSI of boost, I'd hit an effective CR of 21.67 and be in the ball-park of what other E85 users are doing. I figure that could make RWHP in the high 600 range.

If I stick with 93 Octane I'll probably be in the 540 RWHP range.

I have GT500 pumps and a KB dual BAP with 52 LB injectors. What size injectors will I need to put this on the corn, and can GT500 pumps with a dual BAP handle the load for high 600 RWHP?

Any recommendations on injector brand and model?

 

[retfr8flyr]

I would go with the new ID 1300's at a minimum for corn. They are designed for corn and should handle your power requirements. I also don't think the GT500 pumps, even with a BAP, will handle high HP on corn. I would upgrade them to higher flowing pumps. There is a pump, that will fit in the GT500 hat and has a much higher flow. I don't remember the pump model but Jeremy would, he uses them in his systems.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I was going to recommend ID1000s.

My understand is that they would support 700rwhp with GT500 with BAP.

Is that not the case?

 

[retfr8flyr]

You would really have to check with your tuner. I know that combination will work on gas but E85 requires so much more flow that I am not sure. I know Jeremy had a huge return fuel system and 1000 injectors and started running out of fuel at about 780 rwhp.

 

[DiMora]

I would go with the new ID 1300's at a minimum for corn. They are designed for corn and should handle your power requirements. I also don't think the GT500 pumps, even with a BAP, will handle high HP on corn. I would upgrade them to higher flowing pumps. There is a pump, that will fit in the GT500 hat and has a much higher flow. I don't remember the pump model but Jeremy would, he uses them in his systems.

ID1300's...man...$1800 for those...1340 CC's...127 LB...all stainless internals...made to withstand corn...very nice. Gotta pay if you want to play!

The ID1000's are 1015 CC's...98 LB @ $960.00

I'll email KB and see what they say about E85 flow rates with a dual BAP and GT500 pumps...I think my tuner has some experience with that configuration as well.

 

[mustang1200]

I'm running the ID1300's with a return system and dual 465's. Tuner says I have plenty of room left on E85. I'm currently at 800rwhp looking to turn it up a bit after the cam swap.

 

[Saleen304]

Any updates on this build? I just recently discovered I have low compression on cylinder 2 (140 vs 180-190 on others). I imagine I will be needing rings at the very least, but would be up to change out the pistons to get a higher compression ratio, if you find that it is worth it. I have a Saleen blower so I also want to keep my boost low to reduce intake temps. I am currrently around 700 rwhp with 17 psi and Snow meth/water and would like to maintain that level...

 

[Saleen304]

I have been doing a little research on compression ratios and I am not sure it makes the most sense to go over 10:1 unless you are on the corn. Here are some compression ratios for OEM supercharged cars:

2013 GT500 - 9.0:1
2009 GTR - 9.0:1
C7 Z06 - 10.0:1 (direct injection)
C6 ZR1 - 9.1:1
2003 Cobra - 8.5:1

I highlighted direct injection since it does allow for better detonation control since it is shot right into the cylinders. I think that is how they can increase compression ratio to 10:1 and be safe. Rule of thumb is that you get 3% for each point increase in compression ratio which about what you can get for 1 psi of boost.

Lets say you are making 600 HP on 10:1 and 14 psi of boost. Moving to 11:1 nets you 618 on same boost, but if you turn down the boost to 13 psi, you are back down to near 600. If you went down to 9 psi, you would be more like 538 HP. In the end, the compression ratio gives you some gain, if you keep the boost the same, but it isn't worth it using pump gas. It is safer to keep the compression ratio lower and add more boost.

Once last note. Ford sells a coyote engine made for boost. Compression ratio is 9.5:1.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Correct, I learned that the hard way.
High compression makes more power, but requires E85 or race fuel to take advantage of it. Otherwise you are limited to roughly 600-650 rwhp on a 4.6L (5.0L stroker).

If you lower compression and increase boost you can make more power. Not sure how much more power you can make. Talking strictly positive displacement blowers.

Saleen, if you are happy with your current setup, don't change it. Just rehone and re-ring...depending on the current mileage.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I'm running the ID1300's with a return system and dual 465's. Tuner says I have plenty of room left on E85. I'm currently at 800rwhp looking to turn it up a bit after the cam swap.

Turbo? Centri? Positive displacement?
What is your setup?

 

[durr4456]

He has a tvs. Wait you meant him and not dimora. I feel stupid now haha.

 

[Saleen304]

Correct, I learned that the hard way.
High compression makes more power, but requires E85 or race fuel to take advantage of it. Otherwise you are limited to roughly 600-650 rwhp on a 4.6L (5.0L stroker).

If you lower compression and increase boost you can make more power. Not sure how much more power you can make. Talking strictly positive displacement blowers.

Saleen, if you are happy with your current setup, don't change it. Just rehone and re-ring...depending on the current mileage.

That's the plan. I only have 17000 on the car and maybe 11000 on the forged motor. Kinda sucks I have to tear it apart. Hoping it's just the rings.

 

[DiMora]

No progress yet...just moved into a new house...old one is sold...closing August 10th...should be some action after that. Man this moving is rough. Took all my time!

 

[DiMora]

Alright...all moved in to new house...old house is sold...and I'm ready to get on with this build. I'm still struggling over what to do with the pistons. Ugh.

Just tossing in this block-as-is with the new 127350 cams, throttle body , JLT 127MM intake and FRPP twin 65MM TB and sticking to my current 3.47" / 9 PSI pulley and running 17 degrees timing on 93 Octane pump gas seems so simple...

I'll likely decide in the next two weeks if I am going to buy pistons or not. Meanwhile, I need an oil pan, windage tray, head change kit and flywheel and I think I can do it with what I have.

I'll keep you all updated.

 

[DiMora]

Question:

Will Comp 127350 cams (.490 lift maximum) work well with Livernois 20 degree limiters and Comp 26113-24 valve springs?

I already purchased the Comp valve springs (new in box) before I learned about the PAC springs some guys are running.

Springs:

191 Lbs/inch

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...ore_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=26113-24

Comp says they are good up to .550 lift.

Cams:

Comp Cam XFI VSR stage 2: 222/239 @ .050” duration, .490/.485, 116.5 LSA

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=978&sb=2

You can see the cams have a max lift of .490

Gerald - the PAC 1233's you recommended are 300 Lbs / inch. Wouldn't I want a lighter spring so I don't over-power the VCT and the VCT can operate within the range of the limiters? Again, I plan on running the Livernois 20 degree limiters and NOT locking out the VCT.

Does anyone know the rate (pounds per inch) on OEM valve springs?

 

[Badd GT]

http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=158&viewfile=SPECIFICATIONS.pdf

79 lbs. installed spring pressure +/- 4lbs best I can determine

 

[retfr8flyr]

I can't help you with the Comp springs but I run the Livernois springs with their limiters and they work just fine on my .550 lift turbo cams.

 

[scarlett98]

Awesome!

 

[DiMora]

Just ordered the Livernois 20 degree limiters, waiting on the 2013 GT500 oil pan and pickup with windage tray.

I'll post up my complete build list one last time before I get started, I want you all to look at it and tell me if I am doing anything stupid

I'll call Livernois this week to make sure the springs I have will work well with my cams and their limiters.

I've decided to run the 11.5:1 Mahle pistons I already own and run low boost at around 9 PSI.