Eibach Multi Pro R2

[FR500GT]

And I want a dedicated track car anyway. Something with just enough street stuff to be able to drive it on the road if I need too. Its going to be stripped right to the bone, jungle gym roll cage, stitch welded chassis, huge brakes, huge wheels and tires, lots of aero, big $$$ suspension, etc. And it will most likely be NA. I’m not looking to build a show car. It will be getting spun off the track and buried in the gravel trap every once in a while. I’m not even sure what I will be starting with as far as the “base” car goes. Could be a cracked up 2011+ 5.0, could be a 05-09 V-6 or V-8. Could be someone else’s race junk that I buy and strip down to the chassis to rebuild. I would do a “build thread” on the track car because I would be doing it fast.

This is exactly what I am doing! Using the 05-09 chassis and probably just gonna use a NA 3V to keep it simple and keep cost down...BUT this new 500hp crate engine they just released seems soo tempting

 

[foolio2k4]

I can only compare the R2 to the Tein Flex set because that is what I had.

The R2 feels miles better then the Flex.

The springs on the R2 are a softer setup but the damping is miles better than the teins.

I wouldnt hesitate to get the R2. There is no other set of coilovers in the price range that compares (unless u go V3 or Clubsport).

 

[Whiskey11]

None of that^^ addresses this:

So him not making a sales pitch and providing info discredits his credibility gained in the sales pitch? (yes I worded that that way on purpose)

My point was, there was no pitch. He is putting his opinion (and probably experience) against a product. How is this any different from Sam saying he doesn't like a product and recommending another? There isn't one. It is his opinion, again probably backed by facts and experience, saying that there is a reason he choose something else. Just because he sells product and owns a business that is affiliated with a product he mentioned does not mean he is throwing a sales pitch at the guy. Heaven forbid he have his own opinion outside of his company's stance on the products being discussed.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and is in no way me picking any sides or speaking for anyone else but myself so please don't infer anything beyond what I have explicitly stated.

 

[Department Of Boost]

This is exactly what I am doing! Using the 05-09 chassis and probably just gonna use a NA 3V to keep it simple and keep cost down...BUT this new 500hp crate engine they just released seems soo tempting

I’m digging you there. I would like to end up with a NA Coyote motor and spin its guts out.

I would love to do a 3v with a GT500 blower but I don’t think I want to deal with the plumbing, plumbing, plumbing, plumbing (did I mention plumbing?), keeping it cool, keeping it cool and the weight.

A lot of it will depend on what I find for a donor car.

 

[sheizasosay]

example: Bilstein vs. Koni STR.T...

The damping control is every bit as good for much less money.

Sam, in my earlier post, the above quote is what I was commenting on....specifically.

On your comments about the "magical bilsteins" and my source of info. It's all I had to work with and as usual, I have ZERO issue siting my sources and leaving them available for challenge. Koni says "don't do the str-t's with those rates" and Bilstein says " sure, as long as you don't go over 500 in/lb". At this point I can only go by feel unless/until I get the shock's dyno'd. I will say the bilsteins could use more rebound control for MY preference. That's ok though, the KW's will get rebuilt here shortly and I'm willing to bet they will have all the rebound dampening I'll need. I have had "beef(s)" with your personality before, but I do appreciate your challenging of info and straight-shooting folks with what you believe to be true.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Department Of Boost]

So him not making a sales pitch and providing info discredits his credibility gained in the sales pitch? (yes I worded that that way on purpose)

My point was, there was no pitch. He is putting his opinion (and probably experience) against a product. How is this any different from Sam saying he doesn't like a product and recommending another? There isn't one. It is his opinion, again probably backed by facts and experience, saying that there is a reason he choose something else. Just because he sells product and owns a business that is affiliated with a product he mentioned does not mean he is throwing a sales pitch at the guy. Heaven forbid he have his own opinion outside of his company's stance on the products being discussed.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and is in no way me picking any sides or speaking for anyone else but myself so please don't infer anything beyond what I have explicitly stated.

For just a moment set everything else aside. Then we can re-visit the topic of “selling with negativity”.

Can you seriously with a straight face say that you don’t think that Vorshlag is advertising in this forum? Seriously? Every picture has a Vorshlag tag in it, I read something the other day by them and the word “Vorshlag” was in every paragraph or description at least once. His avatar has the company logo in it. I see more from Vorshlag than most the other vendors combined. If I was Sam I would be pestering the powers that be to shut that down or make him a sponsor, one of the two.

And do not assume the above comment means I have an issue with it in any way shape or form. He is a business owner, he should be selling every minute he isn’t sleeping. And while he’s sleeping he should be dreaming up more ways to sell. I applaud his efforts, that’s what it takes to succeed.

The landscape would look much different if he was not selling. His/their posts would look more like yours.

 

[steve13gt]

Btw, I am not sure how to know for sure. but how do we know eibach r2s are chinese made

Everywhere says machined/assembled/etc in Corona.. Can they legally say that, without it being true?

 

[Whiskey11]

For just a moment set everything else aside. Then we can re-visit the topic of “selling with negativity”.

Can you seriously with a straight face say that you don’t think that Vorshlag is advertising in this forum? Seriously? Every picture has a Vorshlag tag in it, I read something the other day by them and the word “Vorshlag” was in every paragraph or description at least once. His avatar has the company logo in it. I see more from Vorshlag than most the other vendors combined. If I was Sam I would be pestering the powers that be to shut that down or make him a sponsor, one of the two.

And do not assume the above comment means I have an issue with it in any way shape or form. He is a business owner, he should be selling every minute he isn’t sleeping. And while he’s sleeping he should be dreaming up more ways to sell. I applaud his efforts, that’s what it takes to succeed.

The landscape would look much different if he was not selling. His/their posts would look more like yours.

I don't mean to continue to derail this thread but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and went back and re-read his posts. No more than twice per post did he mention Vorshlag directly (and twice only happened in one post). Lots of times it could be implied that he meant his company, or it could mean he did it in his own time, or whatever. I'll leave that open to interpretation.

I do see the Vorshlag tags on the photos but I don't necessarily see the advertising. The logo is there, and I suppose putting your name on everything is a form of extremely passive advertising so sure, call it advertising. I can't say I pay particular attention to it directly. I'm more concerned with what is in the photo, the data in them. I also see it as a way of copyrighting the photo to his company and I see individuals do it all the time with their own photos.

I'm not here to defend Terry or Vorshlag, I just don't particularly agree that Terry is just posting to advertise. He has brought a lot of tech into this thread and used pictures that belong to his company and so they bear that mark. Again, nothing in his posts screams "BUY AST AT VORSHLAG BECAUSE IT AM TEH BESTEST ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!!!111111one". Compare Terry's posts to say Kelly at BMR or some of the Steeda Reps. They bring in tech, but they also bring in a heavy dose of advertising too (which is fine because they ARE sponsors). Maybe my skull is lined with tin foil or something but I'm not seeing the subliminal messaging that just screams BUY VORSHLAG. Just tech and good tech too.

Anyway, I don't have anything to contribute to this thread beyond this little tangential discussion. I also would be very offended if I was Terry... His posts shouldn't at all be compared to my posts except to point out how poorly thought out and written mine are and how subjective they can all be!

 

[Department Of Boost]

I don't mean to continue to derail this thread but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and went back and re-read his posts. No more than twice per post did he mention Vorshlag directly (and twice only happened in one post). Lots of times it could be implied that he meant his company, or it could mean he did it in his own time, or whatever. I'll leave that open to interpretation.

I do see the Vorshlag tags on the photos but I don't necessarily see the advertising. The logo is there, and I suppose putting your name on everything is a form of extremely passive advertising so sure, call it advertising. I can't say I pay particular attention to it directly. I'm more concerned with what is in the photo, the data in them. I also see it as a way of copyrighting the photo to his company and I see individuals do it all the time with their own photos.

I'm not here to defend Terry or Vorshlag, I just don't particularly agree that Terry is just posting to advertise. He has brought a lot of tech into this thread and used pictures that belong to his company and so they bear that mark. Again, nothing in his posts screams "BUY AST AT VORSHLAG BECAUSE IT AM TEH BESTEST ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!!!111111one". Compare Terry's posts to say Kelly at BMR or some of the Steeda Reps. They bring in tech, but they also bring in a heavy dose of advertising too (which is fine because they ARE sponsors). Maybe my skull is lined with tin foil or something but I'm not seeing the subliminal messaging that just screams BUY VORSHLAG. Just tech and good tech too.

I guess you missed post #66 in this thread:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92238&page=4

Amount of times Vorshlag showed up in text-12

Mention of Vorshlag product-11

Pictures with Vorshlag tag-18

Avatar with company logo-1

Total Vorshlag “sightings” in one post-42


I’ve said it before, and I will say it again. I could give a crap if Vorshlag is “stealth” advertising. I would be disappointed in him/them if they weren’t. But you trying to pretend that he posts just like everyone else does is just plain ridiculous and frankly embarrassing.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Btw, I am not sure how to know for sure. but how do we know eibach r2s are chinese made

Everywhere says machined/assembled/etc in Corona.. Can they legally say that, without it being true?

Who knows. I’m pretty sure if you say something enough times it becomes true though. Just ask Obama.

 

[Chim-Chim]

Can the Koni yellows really control 500 lb springs?? That would be a surprise to me.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Modernbeat,


It looks like you skipped over post #204 where I asked you some very specific questions. Did you miss it or are you having a hard time answering the questions. You made a lot of derogatory or misleading statements that I would like clarified. You need to be able to back up your statements/claims. Here is your chance.

Everything from below is taken from post #204:

…….the R2, which is not a good shock,

You keep saying it isn’t a good damper. Anyone can make the same claim about anything. Why are they not good dampers? Specifics please.

coupled with cheap components,

I keep hearing cheap, cheap, cheap from you but what does that translate into? Are these cheap components leading to failures? Are these cheap components hurting performance? Or does cheap just mean less expensive. Please explain.

sells for $2150.... Better quality shocks with better quality components sell for slightly more than that.

Actually the R2’s can be had for under $2000 shipped.

How much is “slightly”

How much for a set of single adjustable AST’s with springs?

How much for double adjustable AST’s with springs?

How much for double adjustable AST’s with remote reservoirs and springs?

Why spend that money on the R2 with it's Chinese and South American made components

Why are components from China or South America automatically bad? Made in the USA doesn’t automatically translate into better quality. Every country has its share of “junk”. That includes the USA. 20 years ago people used to say “Japanese junk” all the time. Now they are known for having some of the best stuff on earth.

Tremec T-56 Magnum XL transmissions which are the best trans you can put in a S197 are made in Mexico. Are they Mexican junk?

Does the Philippines pop into your head when you think about quality? Ford Philippines has the highest quality paint of any Ford made anywhere else in the world. And it is better quality than BMW too. Is that paint Philipino junk?

IMO labeling anything (insert country name here) "junk" as a blanket statement is a cop out and misleading. If one wants to label something junk it should be on the specifics of the item, not its place of origin.

....and bad design.....

Again, specifics please. Anyone can make that claim about anything. Why are the R2’s a bad design. You can be as specific and detailed as you like. You don’t have to dumb it down for me. Nothing on the subject of dampers is over my head.

and the camber plates can be reconfigured to match any future suspension purchase?

Are you saying that the Vorshlag CC plates are included in the price of the AST's? If not that’s irrelevant isn’t it? They are an extra cost then???

But if the budget allows a $2000+ suspension, the R2 is not the best choice.

What is the best choice then? Pricing?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Can the Koni yellows really control 500 lb springs?? That would be a surprise to me.

That does seem rather optimistic. Of course when a manufacturer makes a claim like that how are they defining “control”?
If it doesn’t pogo like a van with blown out shocks is it under control? LOL!
My personal definition of control, and I expect it is similar to yours is that in rebound the damper will not cycle more than once before getting back to ride height.

 

[sheizasosay]

Can the Koni yellows really control 500 lb springs?? That would be a surprise to me.

Nobody made that claim in this thread. Post 217 Sam said "and I'd also not recommend STR-T's for springs of that rate, but Sports" and that was in regards to the 340 in/lb spring I have.

I wouldn't be too suprised if they could handle them though. Cortex Racing couples the koni sports (guts) with a 400/200 and 400/250 for their setup. I know they have atleast 2 variants (street and track) and the valving is altered from what koni off the shelf is. I just don't know if Cortex sold konis are different valving on the track version or both street and track. Either way it doesn't seem like they would leave no headroom for spring rates. And there was a thread around here similiar to "what setting do you use for Sports" and from what I remember, everybody had a LOT of adjustment left on the knobs. Granted none of them, that I recall, were 500 in/lb springs. I'll see if I can find that thread. It may or may not have a whole bunch of relevance.
Found it, now those srpings aren't as high, but it shows how much adjustment is used atleast and might be an indicator. http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2011-mustang-gt-tech/361021-koni-sports-yellow-settings.html

 

[modernbeat]

The issues I have with the R2 are all related to quality and engineering as it relates to performance and longevity vs price.

There are issues with the R2 parts that reduce it's longevity and both as-new performance and it's performance after it wears, which is a short time due to the quality of materials, coatings and engineering.

The top guide has issues with the amount of friction it produces AND the lack of stiffness it gives when the damper is fully extended. The latter is important because that lack of stiffness causes misalignment of the piston in the chamber. That misalignment causes the piston seal to start wearing prematurely. Once the piston seal is worn, the worn spot becomes a huge bypass. This overshadows the adjustment mechanism, which is also a bypass, but a very small and controlled bypass. Once the piston seal wears enough the shock oil will even bypass the shim stack and all flow will be around the piston.

The inner bore is stainless steel, which I have reservations about using as a wear surface for this application. Nobody else is using that material, which is not in itself bad, but most use a more expensive steel alloy.

The shaft has very poor chrome quality and starts wearing through very quickly. One example I examined had bad wear marks in the chrome at around 4000 miles.

The seals are mainly o-rings and not square-ring seals or X-ring seals where those could be used like more advanced dampers are using. The square and X rings are made from more expensive materials, are more expensive to purchase compared to O-rings of the same material, and are harder to work with. But the benefit is that the seals last longer.

The piston seals are made from what looks like a rubber seal instead of the multi-layer seal that has to be hand cut and fit to the piston like most high end pistons.

The internal workings are so large that they have to resort to a remote to gain any stroke. This is also shared by a number of aftermarket shocks that take the easy way to do doubles, like Moton, JRZ and AST. The better way to do a double is to use a concentric adjuster with separate bypass on both sides of the main piston rather than a remote bypass either in the shock body or in a remote canister. This is an engineering and design issue.

On the dyno plots I've seen (have not done them myself) both rebound and compression adjusters are not linear and have areas in the adjustment where the adjustment is backwards at some velocities.

For the Mustang, the rears are setup as an inverted shock. This reduces inboard tire clearance. The fronts feature an adjustable swaybar connection that is unnecessarily thick, also reducing inboard wheel clearance.

They do not come with camber plates. They do come with US made Eibach springs.

I do not believe most purchasers of them need a double adjustable damper and the additional complication and maintenance that come along with it. I think that by the time most drivers need a double adjustable, they also need an inverted strut due to the side loading the strut will see. As a starter setup for street-track use I recommend a single adjustable damper setup that sells for between $1800-$2200 without springs, or an additional $200 with Hypercoil springs.

 

[modernbeat]

As far as the issue with foreign made goods, the issue is with materials and holding up the same quality as the initial batch.

I, and others that I work with have had these experience first hand.

When parts are farmed out to unaccountable factories and machine shops in far away lands that do not put their name on the products and parts they make and you have no way to audit the manufacturing process or apply pressure to the management, the specified materials are often substituted for whatever is available and/or cheaper. The specs are not held as tight as they should due to worn machines, worn bits or even worn-out operators. If you are making a whole part overseas, the faceless factory often makes an overrun of your parts using materials billed to you that they then sell outside of your control. Your IP and designs are also now in the hands of people that have no controls over who they sell it to, and no legal penalties against them when they do it.

This is compounded when you buy finished assemblies from the faceless factory and even worse when you buy complete products already boxed and don't even handle them or do any appreciable QC to them before shipping to customers.

At Boeing, my previous employer, on the Space Station contract, we had numerous issues with our suppliers using Chinese (Korean, Taiwanese or Hong Kong) and South American (Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, Brazil) parts. At Vorshalg, one of our partners had a massive recall this year due to his overseas supplier not following the correct procedure to make his parts.

Our experience has led to our insistence that the parts with OUR name on them are machined in the US, handled by us for QC, then plated or coated locally, QC'd again, assembled in-house while also checking quality and then another final QC before being packaged and shipped. When we receive non-Vorshalg parts from our partners, we QC them in house, add any additional modifications the customer has requested and package them ourselves before shipping.

If our IP is sold illegally, we have recourse against those that sold it. We don't have three month delays getting parts made or end up rejecting entire shipments after they arrive due to materials or dimensions, and in the case where that could happen, we have recourse against the company that did it. We have close relationships with our machinists, platers, coaters and anodizers. We buy important hardware from the companies that manufacture it to keep from purchasing counterfeit fasteners and bearings. Often built to our custom specifications for materials, coatings and dimensions.

What we, our customers, and any other manufacturer gets from follow these steps is a product that is built as designed every time. A product that goes together correctly. Is repairable years later with parts from a different production run and provides strength and longevity as it was originally designed.

 

[Norm Peterson]

And there was a thread around here similiar to "what setting do you use for Sports" and from what I remember, everybody had a LOT of adjustment left on the knobs. Granted none of them, that I recall, were 500 in/lb springs. I'll see if I can find that thread. It may or may not have a whole bunch of relevance.
Found it, now those srpings aren't as high, but it shows how much adjustment is used atleast and might be an indicator. http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2011-mustang-gt-tech/361021-koni-sports-yellow-settings.html

Not a member over there.

I'm at about +1 and +0.75 turns from full soft - with the OE springs, and for street driving. Higher for autocross or track.

At down around +0.25 turn on the fronts you can clearly feel that they're below the setting for best grip. Full disclosure here, I also have Sam's 35mm front bar on the mid setting, which is something like 30% stiffer than the 2008 GT front bar.

Critical damping, or any fixed percentage of it, is a SQRT function of spring rate (all else held constant). I see combining the Sports with 500-ish springs being somewhere between best ride and best grip, possibly a little past the midway point toward best grip, with no room to go up.


Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

Before I get started I want to make it perfectly clear that I have never claimed the quality of the R2’s was as good as the higher end dampers. My core “argument” for the R2’s is that you get a lot of damper for a very good price. Obviously you don’t get something for nothing in this world though, especially when it comes to dampers. The R2's are bound to have some shortcomings.

And before I jump into this post I want to set a “milestone” when referring to quality dampers. I will be referring to Ohlins and Penske dampers quite a bit. That is because that is what I have the most experience with. And I don’t think anyone can argue that they are top quality dampers, both are more than proven and it could said that Ohlins stuff is about as good as it gets.

There are issues with the R2 parts that reduce it's longevity and both as-new performance and it's performance after it wears, which is a short time due to the quality of materials, coatings and engineering.

I think that using the label “short time” could be taken to mean something more negative than is the reality of the situation. That’s a bit of a grey area statement. I know of a car with 35K daily driver and track miles on its R2’s and the only thing that ever needed attention was replacing a seal (which is not uncommon for any damper). That being said I do agree when it comes to longevity and a potential for decreased performance due to inconsistent parts/assembly the R2’s probably don’t stack up to AST’s.

The top guide has issues with the amount of friction it produces AND the lack of stiffness it gives when the damper is fully extended. The latter is important because that lack of stiffness causes misalignment of the piston in the chamber. That misalignment causes the piston seal to start wearing prematurely. Once the piston seal is worn, the worn spot becomes a huge bypass. This overshadows the adjustment mechanism, which is also a bypass, but a very small and controlled bypass. Once the piston seal wears enough the shock oil will even bypass the shim stack and all flow will be around the piston.

Well that is obviously not ideal. I agree that it is not good thing to have a guide/bushing that allows the piston to cock sideways in the bore. I guess that is why Eibach has a O-ring on the piston in addition to the bushing. When the bushing gets beat up the O-ring will hold the seal longer. Ohlins and Penske do not run a O-ring on the piston and they do not have any “blowby” issues. They don’t have any misalignment issues either though. The faster wear of the bushing is another one of those context things though. If the application calls for it to be a daily driver and see track duty it would be a issue if the bushing needs to be replaced every 10K miles (I don’t know what the interval is, I’m just using 10K as an example). That would require the owner to rebuild the dampers about once a year. Where that is not a big deal to me, and I would rebuild any performance damper before then anyway I could see how your average Joe would find it inconvenient and expensive.

This issue I could see being a problem for most people. In my case it’s not a big minus because I don’t run very many miles a year and I would be rebuilding the dampers frequently anyway. Put one in the win column for AST’s.

The inner bore is stainless steel, which I have reservations about using as a wear surface for this application. Nobody else is using that material, which is not in itself bad, but most use a more expensive steel alloy.

Ohlins uses stainless steel in some of their OEM applications without any problems. They do use hard anodized aluminum in most of their "race" applications though.

There could be an argument for not going with stainless, but I don’t see it being anything but a very minor issue if it is even one at all.

The shaft has very poor chrome quality and starts wearing through very quickly. One example I examined had bad wear marks in the chrome at around 4000 miles.

Which is a perfect example of the lower cost components and their inconsistency. You’ve seen worn through chrome at 4K, I’ve seen a set with 35K with no problems. With the Eibach’s it’s a bit of a lottery it seems. I’m sure Eibach would warranty them, but that is a PITA. Put another tick for quality in the AST’s win column.

The seals are mainly o-rings and not square-ring seals or X-ring seals where those could be used like more advanced dampers are using. The square and X rings are made from more expensive materials, are more expensive to purchase compared to O-rings of the same material, and are harder to work with. But the benefit is that the seals last longer

Ohlins and Penske use O-rings. I have only ever replaced them (aside from a few "restorations") because I was in there anyway and they are cheap. I agree that X-rings or square-rings are better. I have not seen O-rings be an issue though.

The piston seals are made from what looks like a rubber seal instead of the multi-layer seal that has to be hand cut and fit to the piston like most high end pistons.

The Eibach R2 piston uses a bronze impregnated wear band (just like Ohlins and Penske) with a O-ring backup. Not a rubber seal (well the O-ring is rubber). I don’t see a problem with the piston design as it relates to how it runs in the bore. See pic below.

The internal workings are so large that they have to resort to a remote to gain any stroke. This is also shared by a number of aftermarket shocks that take the easy way to do doubles, like Moton, JRZ and AST. The better way to do a double is to use a concentric adjuster with separate bypass on both sides of the main piston rather than a remote bypass either in the shock body or in a remote canister. This is an engineering and design issue.

Ok, you lost me here a bit. If I am reading this correctly you think that running a remote reservoir is sub par………but that is how Moton, JRZ and AST do their doubles too. But you like Moton, JRZ and AST’s don’t you?

That aside I don’t see an issue with running a remote aside from packaging. And of course there are some advantages to running a remote. Ohlins and Penske run remotes on almost all of their stuff. Well the Ohlins TTX’s don’t run remotes per se most of the time but they are a COMPLETELY different technology so it’s not an apples to apples comparison.

On the dyno plots I've seen (have not done them myself) both rebound and compression adjusters are not linear

Not ideal, but not uncommon either. Even in the highest end of dampers. The better dampers are going to be more linear most of the time though. As long as the adjuster is not an on/off switch (which they are not) I don’t see it as a handicap. If I had my preference I would like linear changes, or near linear changes though. I’m hearing you on this one.

and have areas in the adjustment where the adjustment is backwards at some velocities.

I would have to see multiple sets do that before I chalked it up to anything but improper assembly.

For the Mustang, the rears are setup as an inverted shock. This reduces inboard tire clearance.

Actually they don’t. The tires will hit the “tubs” before they touch the damper (I measured everything when I put them on the first time).

The fronts feature an adjustable swaybar connection that is unnecessarily thick, also reducing inboard wheel clearance.

Yeah, that’s a dumb setup. You probably saw in a previous post where we had to machine them for clearance. I have plenty now.

They do not come with camber plates.

AST's don't either do they? And if they do aren't they an extra cost?

Does the $1800-$2200 (plus $200 for springs) set you reference below come with camber plates?

I do not believe most purchasers of them need a double adjustable damper and the additional complication and maintenance that come along with it.

I agree with that. Most people wouldn't know where to start setting them up.

I think that by the time most drivers need a double adjustable, they also need an inverted strut due to the side loading the strut will see.

I never considered that.

As a starter setup for street-track use I recommend a single adjustable damper setup that sells for between $1800-$2200 without springs, or an additional $200 with Hypercoil springs.

For most people I agree that is not a bad place to start. The added adjustability of the R2’s is wasted on most and the potential for more needed maintenance would not suit most buyers either.

I on the other hand can’t live without adjusters! Non adjustable anything drives me nuts. And obviously maintenance is not an issue for me either. I would much rather have a top shelf set of dampers though, that is not a debate in the least. But for this car, which was never supposed to be a track car (it will be doing a few days though) and maybe sees 2000mi/yr I thought any coilover was overkill. Throwing a set of double adjustable Moton’s at this car would be a total waste of money.

On the other hand there is a dedicated track car in my future and it will have nothing but top shelf suspension components.

Thanks for replying to my post.

 

[modernbeat]

The comment about the R2 not having camber plates was just acknowledging they do not. The price range I gave for my recommended damper also did not include a camber plate.

On the subject of remotes, I think that the use of remotes is an inexpensive way to solve the issue of long internals, or bulky internal compression adjusters. Yes, a number of companies do it. I think it's a cost savings shortcut by all of them. The cost are saved in the engineering and manufacturing of the delicate components that are used to make a concentric adjuster and the additional engineering to make the rest of the damper strong enough to support a shaft that has been rifle drilled large enough to run TWO adjustment rods through it. The two most common dampers with concentric adjustment right now are the Koni 28 series and the Bilstein MDS. Both use a compression adjustment that is a mirror image of the rebound adjustment and located in the piston-shaft assembly.

On the chrome shaft issue, it's difficult to see the difference between chrome and polished steel and the slight shadows in the finish that tell you the chrome has gone away. If you aren't looking for it, it's easy to miss. You might take another look at your shafts next time they are apart.

AST made a few different versions of their rear Mustang shock while in development. We did the majority (or all) of the testing for the Mustang. We did have potential tire clearance issues with it. I've attached a photo of the Mustang with a Moton rear damper and a conversion bracket on the rear of our red test car. The tire wiped the lip on the bracket and a number of high points on the inside of the tub. The bracket is exactly where the top of the main tube would be on the inverted version of the AST. We requested design changes to both the orientation and some dimensions based on our early testing and got the maximum tire clearance possible out of it. We run a 315 Hoosier on an 18x12 under the rear fender with no other mods except for a different swaybar that attaches to a more inboard location.

I wasn't aware that you modified your swaybar clamp. That sucks you had to do it. The designer should be aware of those sorts of things when they spec out a shock. That tells me that something like "getting the most tire possible under the fender" is not one of their design priorities, and well, it should be.

What it looks like when figuring out just how far you can go. The new setup doesn't rub thanks to a different wheel offset.

And I'll always reply to posts. Your post deserved a sitdown and decent reply and I had not had time for any more than a quicky reply before.

 

[steve13gt]

Slightly offtopic, You guys Track on Forgestars? are they up to that task.. I am trying to find new wheels but I am a bit paranoid about breaking a rim.. At $300 bucks each these sure are cheap compared to $800-$1000 for any other rim I look at