Fays2 watts link

[Snakebyte94]

Well finaly bought the Fays2 watts link. I'm nervous and happy at the same time. I hope everything goes good. Sam Strano rocks.

 

[Sleeper_08]

If you drive your car as hard or harder than I do then you'll really notice the difference.

 

[Kaldar142]

I noticed a difference even just cruising around!

Everything feels smother and the rear feels much more connected to the car

 

[Rubrignitz]

Throwing the rear end out was no problem with the panhard setup. Not easy to break free with the watts link. It's just breaking my heart . j/k

The rear just grabs and BITES around the corner. When it does break loose, it's a very slow progression and you can just tug it through the corner. It's a blast and harkens me back to my IRS cars.

 

[foolio2k4]

does the watts link get rid of that "wiggle" under hard lateral loads or under throttle lateral loads?

if is that just inherent with the design of the car. I know some other cars have the same feeling.

 

[Germeezy3]

does the watts link get rid of that "wiggle" under hard lateral loads or under throttle lateral loads?

if is that just inherent with the design of the car. I know some other cars have the same feeling.

I am curious to I experienced that feeling on a 2011 GT500 yesterday, I know it was not breaking lose but it was still unnerving.

 

[Sleeper_08]

does the watts link get rid of that "wiggle" under hard lateral loads or under throttle lateral loads?

if is that just inherent with the design of the car. I know some other cars have the same feeling.

The only time the rear end "wiggles" now on my car is under hard braking, defined as near 1 g on R-comps on a race track, from really high speeds, i.e. 130+. This seems to be a characteristic of the car.

 

[Philostang]

Hmmm...Sleep, I had actually hoped the Watt's would diminish or eliminate that particular characteristic. But you say it's still there. Damn.

I think you're right, it's something just built into the car...or it's something we're all doing wrong in our set up. I know from my experience that the brake-wiggle can be pretty awful when I really stand on the clamps, but if I'm braking with a bit more finesse it never really rears its head.

I keep thinking that brake dive is the culprit and stiffer springs would take care of it, but Dave's running some pretty stiff springs and says (though brake dive is minimal) he still gets some of that wiggle. And we're both running rod ends, so bushing compliance isn't a likely candidate.

Q: Did you notice any benefit in this regard (hard braking) when you moved to the Watt's?

Best,
-j

 

[Liftedbronco]

That wiggle is exactly what it fixes. rear becomes just "better" feeling. More confidence inspiring. Esp over broken pavement.

 

[pcdrj]

I ran the Saleen Watt's link for a while and it made an improvement. The rear did still have a tendency to wiggle. Replaced it with the Griggs's Watts and replaced the stock 3rd link with their torque arm. Way better. Wiggle is virtually eliminated. Rear stays planted and you can get on the throttle very early without upsetting it.

 

[Philostang]

Just to be clear, I'm not concerned with the "normal" wiggle we experience in stock trim going over broken pavement. That went largely away with just an upgrade to a spherical-ended panhard.

I'm really talking about what Sleep pointed out; that wiggle you get when you're braking really hard (and I'm defining "hard" in a similar fashion, not braking at highway speeds, braking at track speeds with r-comps). I can drive around all day on streets and at the track hauling the mail and not feel that other wiggle. But when you brake hard, you still get some wiggle in the rear.

pcdrj, I haven't driven a torque arm Mustang, so I can't say how much sooner I could get on the throttle with it over my set up. I'm sure the torque arm works as advertised. I will say, however, that the wiggle I'm asking about isn't throttle induced at all. The rear stepping out on throttle is one thing, the rear wanting to dance the jig on heavy braking is very-very different. (Ok, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea.)

Also, when you say you replaced the factory 3rd link, do you mean you went from the OEM parts to the torque arm, or that you switched from a 3rd link configuration (run with aftermarket parts) to the torque arm? Just curious to hear more about your experience.

Best,
-j

 

[pcdrj]

pcdrj, I haven't driven a torque arm Mustang, so I can't say how much sooner I could get on the throttle with it over my set up. I'm sure the torque arm works as advertised. I will say, however, that the wiggle I'm asking about isn't throttle induced at all. The rear stepping out on throttle is one thing, the rear wanting to dance the jig on heavy braking is very-very different. (Ok, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea.)

Also, when you say you replaced the factory 3rd link, do you mean you went from the OEM parts to the torque arm, or that you switched from a 3rd link configuration (run with aftermarket parts) to the torque arm? Just curious to hear more about your experience.

Best,
-j

IMO that "wiggle" under hard braking is caused by the same problem which is how weight distribution is handled. I run GT500 front brakes with Hawk 70s up front and 60s in rear. I'll follow 911's, Vettes into hard braking corners within a few feet and brake right with them. Rear stays planted.

I was running Tokico Dspecs, Steeda sports, Steeda LCA's with bushings, relocation brackets, stock 3rd link, Saleen Watt's link, FRPP sway bars.

Changed to Griggs coil over, LCA's (heims), Grigg's relocation brackets, Griggs' Watts, torque arm, Griggs' sway. I drove it this way for about a month before I did the front.

My first setup was certainly an improvement over stock but the car had the same tendency when you pushed it on the track. The Griggs' setup changes the behavior completely. I track a 2400# Spec Miata and can honestly say the Mustang has very similar characteristics. The "whip" and "whiggle" is gone and it steps out very predictably.

 

[Sam Strano]

The more slop you remove from the system, the better it will feel. Remember that when te car is under braking the tail is light, and you see all kinds of road-racing vehicles exhibit some sort of movement under really hard braking.... Think of a Sprint Cup car, a Superbike, anything that is short of stiff as a board like an F1 car (and you still see them do it sometimes but it's not nearly as apparent as they are so much stiffer). Stand on your tip-toes and have some shove you, you're not as "planted as you are flat on your feet.

But back to to the slop..... Rubber bushings add compliance that make the axle and body do different things. The arc motion of a PHB arrangement means the body is not only moving up and down, but also side to side. And the more the body moves, the more lateral movement you'll get.

Doesn't it make sense that the move well controlled the axle or body is, the more stable the car feels?

 

[Sleeper_08]

Hmmm...Sleep, I had actually hoped the Watt's would diminish or eliminate that particular characteristic. But you say it's still there. Damn.

I think you're right, it's something just built into the car...or it's something we're all doing wrong in our set up. I know from my experience that the brake-wiggle can be pretty awful when I really stand on the clamps, but if I'm braking with a bit more finesse it never really rears its head.

I keep thinking that brake dive is the culprit and stiffer springs would take care of it, but Dave's running some pretty stiff springs and says (though brake dive is minimal) he still gets some of that wiggle. And we're both running rod ends, so bushing compliance isn't a likely candidate.

Q: Did you notice any benefit in this regard (hard braking) when you moved to the Watt's?

Best,
-j

Yes Dave confirmed that once he started pushing his new suspension the "wiggle" came back.

I went to the Watt's at the start of last year when I was not pushing the car as hard so it is impossible to say what the effect was on the wiggle.

My feeling is that we are all pushing the car way harder than Ford intended but what the heck that is where the fun is.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

The Fays2 Watts Link is simply awesome on the road course! It made the car handle significantly better in the high speed turns and esses - really inspires confidence in making the car much more predictable through better handling. IMHO, its a "must do".

 

[Philostang]

The arc motion of a PHB arrangement means the body is not only moving up and down, but also side to side. And the more the body moves, the more lateral movement you'll get.

Doesn't it make sense that the move well controlled the axle or body is, the more stable the car feels?

See, that's exactly why I thought the Watt's would help address some of that brake-wiggle. With my level of nose dive, the rear is moving quite a bit, and I figured the arc of the panhard was giving me a sensation of lateral shimmy.

I know I'm in for stiffer springs next season as well as a Watt's, so I'm hoping to really minimize that disturbance under heavy braking. We'll see.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

First off, a clarification...

Yes, even with a reasonably high-end suspension package, with a full complement of rod-ends in the rear, under HEAVY braking, there is still a slight "wiggle", but it is orders of magnitude less than it was with lighter springs and cheaper dampers. The ASTs are really the cat's ass, particularly coupled with higher-rate springs.

I honestly don't think the PHB is the culprit, though. Yes, as the car face-plants itself under 1G braking, the rear end will rise, causing the axle to shift, slightly, as the PHB swings through it's arc. For the rear to wiggle, however, that implies a rapid oscillation of the PHB arc, which then presupposes very rapid suspension cycling through jounce and rebound. That ain't happening. Period. My rear axle is about as positively located as it can get, with ZERO bushing deflection anywhere, excepting the rubber bushing at the top of the axle housing. I still have a minor wiggle, but I think we can rule out the body shifting around over the axle as the cause. As was mentioned earlier, by PCDRJ, even with a Watts link in back, he still had some wiggle. The only apparent choice of kit to eliminate the wiggle alltogether is to swap over to a torque arm setup. The TA eliminates the upper control arm, replacing it with a considerably longer suspension member rigidly fixed to the rear axle, and pivoting at approximately the end of the tailshaft housing. This would seem to indicate that the culprit is in the 3rd link geometry, perhaps linked to the pinion angle.

 

[Sleeper_08]

First off, a clarification...

Yes, even with a reasonably high-end suspension package, with a full complement of rod-ends in the rear, under HEAVY braking, there is still a slight "wiggle", but it is orders of magnitude less than it was with lighter springs and cheaper dampers. The ASTs are really the cat's ass, particularly coupled with higher-rate springs.

I honestly don't think the PHB is the culprit, though. Yes, as the car face-plants itself under 1G braking, the rear end will rise, causing the axle to shift, slightly, as the PHB swings through it's arc. For the rear to wiggle, however, that implies a rapid oscillation of the PHB arc, which then presupposes very rapid suspension cycling through jounce and rebound. That ain't happening. Period. My rear axle is about as positively located as it can get, with ZERO bushing deflection anywhere, excepting the rubber bushing at the top of the axle housing. I still have a minor wiggle, but I think we can rule out the body shifting around over the axle as the cause. As was mentioned earlier, by PCDRJ, even with a Watts link in back, he still had some wiggle. The only apparent choice of kit to eliminate the wiggle altogether is to swap over to a torque arm setup. The TA eliminates the upper control arm, replacing it with a considerably longer suspension member rigidly fixed to the rear axle, and pivoting at approximately the end of the tailshaft housing. This would seem to indicate that the culprit is in the 3rd link geometry, perhaps linked to the pinion angle.

Dave

Thanks for the detailed response.

I've been running the Steeda Upper Control Arm that can be set to a longer length so that may be helping my car behave better than it would otherwise. Also if my memory is correct, and at my age it might not be, hasn't Ford also increased the length of the production UCA on the recent model years?

Currently I'm running CarboTech XP10 F on the GT500 Brembo's and XP8 R on stock calipers. Per my earlier post I now have a set of XP10s for the rear to see if that helped with the wiggle but haven't installed them yet since the rears won't wear out.

My season is now over so the XP10s in the rear will be tried next May.

 

[Philostang]

Thanks Dave!

I figured that the panhard might give us one swing as the tail moves higher, but no more. Where I thought it might be inducing the wiggle effect was in places like Autobahn where the tail goes up high as it would under any heavy braking, and then encounters the "super smooth" undulations in the track surface. [Note: For those who have never driven Autobahn, I'm joking...there are areas that feel like road construction is going on.] That seems to be where I've met with the worst of my brake-wiggle. Those up-and-down variations would have the axle shifting from side to side even as we have an even amount of braking input at the pedal.

That said, I'm very open to other suggestions as to what might be causing this. Given pcdrj's report, I wouldn't be surprised if the 3-link geometry has something to do with it. Like Sleep, I had also heard Ford made use of a longer link similar to what Steeda offers. In theory the longer side-view swing arm is supposed to benefit one under braking. In theory. I'm running that same Steeda unit, and I still get the brake-wiggle. Unfortunately, also like Sleep, when I switched over to it I was not running nearly as hard as I am now nor was I on R-comps, so I don't really have a gauge of how much improvement it made.

I'd like to run some different compounds out back as well to see if it helps. I originally planned on doing this earlier this season, but then found that most of my first encounter with the heavy brake-wiggle was due to a jacked-up front alignment which had the car doing all kinds of silly things. Now, I'd say I can brake up to 90% of the car's current potential, but once I go into the brakes harder I get the wiggle, esp. on uneven portions of track.

For my own part, I sort of feel like there are multiple determinants here, each contributing just a little to the brake wiggle. So my thinking is to whittle it down to an acceptable level where I can brake as much as I want, if only with a mild amount of discomfort.

Best,
-j

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I would doubt that changing brake compounds would actually help the wiggle issue... It's still a matter of mass-in-motion (inertia) standing the car on its nose as the mass (chassis) tries to continue forward, while the tires try to stop. Since the chassis is, more or less, tightly connected to the tires, it can't slide forward, so as a result, we get weight transference onto the front, causing dive, and off of the rear, causing a lift.

My thought is that at that point, the upper control arms is at such a steep angle that the relatively short length becomes effectively short enough that it tries to lift the rear end, and that is where we're getting our oscillation. Control the dive/rise, and you'll control the wiggle. At least that's my current theory.

As for a solution, as has been noted Ford may have lengthened that arm, so we MAY benefit from swapping over to a 2011 UCA and mount. Or, chuck it all together, and go with a torque arm. That said, I've also heard that TA's can have some wicked side-effects...

I can say categorically, that going with good dampers, and higher rate springs will minimize the wiggle to a very manageable level. The vid below is NOT from Autobahn, but from Putnam Park, which really is a pretty smooth track. As you can see, even under hard braking on R-comps, the wiggle has been reduced to a very manageable level, one that I no longer find particularly pucker-inducing.



As you can see, it can be managed to the point where it doesn't affect HARD drivability, and it can be done without having to take a second mortgage...