First HPDE: Sonoma Raceway

[claudermilk]

It's been sounding to me like situational overload as well. Even with the stated handicap, experience and comfort I would expect will help with this a ton.

I know I had difficulty identifying and noting the flagging stations my first time out. Even though I was trying to remember to look for them. I know I missed the first checkers (instructor let me know), and I know from reviewing my video I missed seeing a yellow--though I knew it had to be there & drove accordingly.

BTW, Dave, you are evil. We all come in here after our first HPDE having bit the hook & all excited. Then you provide all this excellent, in-depth analysis & assistance, and set it for good.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

BTW, Dave, you are evil. We all come in here after our first HPDE having bit the hook & all excited. Then you provide all this excellent, in-depth analysis & assistance, and set it for good.

Hey, the first dose is free...

In all seriousness, though, I had a few really great instructors when I was coming up through the ranks, and I do this as a pathetic attempt to pass on some of the joy, excitement, and sense of accomplishment that I experienced under their tutelage. It also helps that I genuinely enjoy instructing as well. For a year, when my car was, um, down, I still made something like sixteen events just to instruct. Even when I DO have my car at the track, there has been more than one occasion where I had more fun in the right seat than I did in the left. This sport draws a lot of pretty cool people from very diverse backgrounds, and I've been fortunate to be paired up with a bunch of them! Yes, there are days when I just can't WAIT for the weekend to be over and see the last of the jack-hole who was doing his level best to kill me, but overwhelmingly, it's a positive experience. Thank you, though, I appreciate the nod.

 

[sheizasosay]

there are days when I just can't WAIT for the weekend to be over and see the last of the jack-hole who was doing his level best to kill me, but overwhelmingly, it's a positive experience. Thank you, though, I appreciate the nod.

You should ride with me Dave. I drive FLAT OUT.

 

[csamsh]

You should ride with me Dave. I drive FLAT OUT.

For anybody who doesn't get the reference...it's worth the time

 

[Norm Peterson]

Normal driving doesn't involve driving exactly the same place in exactly the same way time after time.

Normal driving may not REQUIRE it, maybe. But that doesn't mean you can't try to make each drive through (say) any given highway entrance or exit ramp follow the same turn-in / apex / track out line. You don't have to be going fast to get used to following a racing line, and doing so in normal driving might result in just a little less mental load on the track once you realize "this isn't totally different from driving (wherever), mostly I'm just going faster". I think what I'm trying to get at is to understand the concept of "the line" more on a gut level than just academically/intellectually knowing it's what you should be doing.

I'm betting that you tend to stop talking while you're on entrance and exit ramps anyway.


Norm

 

[kcbrown]

Normal driving may not REQUIRE it, maybe. But that doesn't mean you can't try to make each drive through (say) any given highway entrance or exit ramp follow the same turn-in / apex / track out line. You don't have to be going fast to get used to following a racing line, and doing so in normal driving might result in just a little less mental load on the track once you realize "this isn't totally different from driving (wherever), mostly I'm just going faster". I think what I'm trying to get at is to understand the concept of "the line" more on a gut level than just academically/intellectually knowing it's what you should be doing.

That makes sense and it seems like a reasonable thing to do. I'll try integrating that into my driving. Can't hurt...

I'm betting that you tend to stop talking while you're on entrance and exit ramps anyway.

Yep, pretty much...

 

[Rabee]

A perfect example of situational overload, a very informative and hilarious video
http://youtu.be/vIaN21TO40k

 

[TLeroux]

Well, I'm back from my very first HPDE in 15 years. This one was put on by NASA at Sonoma Raceway.

My goals in HPDE are, firstly, to have enormous amounts of fun; secondly, to learn how to safely and reliably drive the car at its limits; thirdly, to learn how to reliably recover the car when its limits are exceeded; and fourthly, to do all of the above without putting so much as a scratch on the car (save, of course, for the usual track-based wear and tear).

It was tremendous fun. But it was also frustrating. I'll get to the bit about frustration in a minute

First, the fun stuff. I started off slow (quite slow, actually), and took my time ramping up. The first session of each day is a "slow lap" session in which everyone drives the line at about 45 MPH behind a pace car under a full course yellow condition without helmets. The other three sessions in each day were standard full-speed sessions. Group 1 (my group) had instructors in every car. Group 2 didn't except upon request (or, I suppose, when some remedial instruction was deemed necessary). It didn't take me long to learn the line as such. But despite that, it wasn't until the very last session of the weekend that I was going even moderately fast. That last session was the only one during which I passed anyone (and even then, I only passed one car).

This car is really easy to put where you want it. That kind of precision surprised me greatly, especially considering the size and weight of the car. I got that impression when I drove it on one of the somewhat twisty highways around here almost immediately after I bought it, but the track is where such things are made completely apparent.

I'm a little curious about you mean by this. Asking mainly because you say you have to concentrate so much to go through the turns. Was wondering if you meant that you could get it to where you wanted but where you wanted the car to be changed and you had to continually make steering corrections? I try to get students to make one turn in, hold that, looking through the apex to the exit, once they are sure they can make the exit, to unwind the wheel and accelerate out. When you are making corrections, are you always tightening up the turn? Letting the car drift out from the apex? Both?

But sadly, all is not bliss, and it has nothing to do with the car. It has to do with me. The problem is that I literally can concentrate on only one thing at a time, and when I do so, it is to the exclusion of all else. This means that when I'm concentrating on driving the line, as I was, I am unable to see the corner workers, even when they're waving flags. The only things I'm able to see are the apexes that I'm trying to hit. The faster I went, the further ahead I had to look, but the less precise I got, too. Going more slowly meant I could hit the apexes within a couple of feet or so of the target. Going more quickly caused me to be unable to hit the apexes quite as precisely.
The fact that it takes such intense concentration on my part to drive the line properly is a real problem, because it means that I can't be aware of anything else. If I start looking around at other things as well, then I lose my ability to drive the line precisely. This is probably something that is unique to me, hence the necessity of an instructor who could work with me. On my second day, they switched out my instructor after the first session precisely because of my frustration with this. That helped, and I'm hopeful that continued work on this will improve things, but I'm not terribly hopeful in that respect.

This sounds information overload, and is not uncommon. When I have a student that seems overwhelmed, I tell them what I will pay attention to and keep him informed about and what I want them to concentrate on. This can be as much as telling them I will watch all traffic, the flag stations and direct them where I want them to brake and where and how hard to turn. As they get comfortable on the track I will pick 2 or 3 turns where them to find the line I've been telling them to follow, this lets them work on small portions of the track, they don't have to know where they have to be for all of the track just how to work those specific turns. When they are comfortable with those turns we can work on another set.

Another example is that I'm an instrument rated private pilot. Flying on instruments requires that you track lots of things at once and do lots of things at once. I don't do that. What I do instead is very quickly shift my focus from one thing to another. I shift my focus from the instruments to the approach I'm briefing, for instance, and after about a second, back to the instruments, which I have to scan sequentially. And I repeat that process until the approach is fully briefed. It is purely sequential, with each thing I'm doing taking a slice of time.
The end result is that I am very concerned about my ability to be safe on the track and to adhere to the rules. I can't see the corner workers unless I'm looking at them or for them, and I can't look at them or for them unless I'm diverting my attention from driving the line. If I'm diverting my attention in that way, then I will not be driving the line anymore, because driving the line requires continuously changing inputs. The only exception is the straights. The end result is that even on the 45 mph slow laps, I was unable to acknowledge the corner workers.

This I find interesting, when you were learning to fly, on approach you had to worry about keeping level, watch your altitude, consider yaw from crosswinds, watch your speed, line up for the landing among other things. How did you get over information overload then? I also think that the flying may help you on the track, using pitch to control speed and throttle to control altitude, is a bit like using the throttle to steer through corners.

My instructor on the 2nd day was awesome. I think he really gets what's going on and what I'm going to need in order to improve. The bottom line is that driving the line is going to have to become so familiar that it (somehow) no longer takes as many cycles as it does, so that I can divert my attention from it periodically in order to spot the corner workers and spot traffic. The sheer amount of bandwidth required, however, is enough that I don't expect to ever get any good at this compared to other people. But only time will tell.
But it's one that I want to repeat again and again. I'll stick with HPDE group 1 for as long as it takes to get this figured out. It may be that I never figure it out. That wouldn't surprise me. But as long as I'm having fun blasting around the track, I'm going to keep at it.

I would suggest that you have a plan on what you would like to accomplish and talk to your instructor before your first session. It seems that you got this across to your second instructor, but if you explain it, most instructors can help you. It also allows them to do things like set up the passenger mirror so they can keep an eye on traffic.

As I mentioned, one of my goals is to learn how to reliably recover the car in the event I go past its limits. I've discussed that with a number of instructors, and the conclusion is that there's no good way to do that. Going past the limits means, in the context of driving on the track, going off the track in the event you don't recover properly. How in the world can you learn how to properly recover the car in those conditions if you can't afford to screw up the recovery? The answer is that you can't. And so, I'm frustrated about this as well. How can I possibly learn how to recover the car when I inevitably go past its limits unless I can somehow take it past those limits in a safe fashion? It's obviously not possible in an HPDE.

And if I can't learn how to reliably recover the car when going past its limits, it follows that I can't exceed its limits without incurring a lot of danger. And if I can't do that, then it follows that I can't learn to drive it at its limits, because doing so incurs the real danger of going past its limits. Therefore, it logically follows that I cannot accomplish any of my goals by driving in HPDEs except one: having fun! Fortunately, that's the most important goal I have (save for safety), so I don't view this as a showstopper. But it does have me looking for options, and if you guys have any suggestions, I'd like to hear them.

I'd suggest there are a couple of things you can do to learn the limits. First is some corners are much safer to push than others, mistakes here usually lead to just an ugly turn. On the other hand going over a rise in the middle of a turn with a blind entrance to the next straight with a wall on the outside is probably not where you want to push it.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Hey, Terry! I was hoping you might pop in on this... I think we're reading this pretty much the same way.

 

[kcbrown]

I'm a little curious about you mean by this. Asking mainly because you say you have to concentrate so much to go through the turns. Was wondering if you meant that you could get it to where you wanted but where you wanted the car to be changed and you had to continually make steering corrections?

It's a little hard to describe, but think of it like trying to stop and then keep stationary a marble on a flat surface that you're holding in your hands. Chances are you're going to overshoot the stop attempt and cause the marble to move in the opposite direction, which you then have to correct for, which you might then undershoot or overshoot, and you then correct as appropriate. Lather, rinse, repeat, until the marble is stopped.

Driving around a corner with an apex is the same process for me. When I turn in, I might turn in too little or too much, so I watch the apex and adjust my steering until I can tell that the car is on an "intercept course" with the apex given its current curved trajectory, and then I keep my eyes on the apex afterwards to confirm that my trajectory remains correct (which accounts for both the possibility that my original estimate of a correct trajectory was incorrect as well as a potential change in the surface that requires steering corrections to account for).


Engineering types will immediately recognize this for what it is: a feedback loop.

I try to get students to make one turn in, hold that, looking through the apex to the exit, once they are sure they can make the exit, to unwind the wheel and accelerate out. When you are making corrections, are you always tightening up the turn? Letting the car drift out from the apex? Both?

Both. It depends entirely on which way I erred.

This sounds information overload, and is not uncommon. When I have a student that seems overwhelmed, I tell them what I will pay attention to and keep him informed about and what I want them to concentrate on. This can be as much as telling them I will watch all traffic, the flag stations and direct them where I want them to brake and where and how hard to turn. As they get comfortable on the track I will pick 2 or 3 turns where them to find the line I've been telling them to follow, this lets them work on small portions of the track, they don't have to know where they have to be for all of the track just how to work those specific turns. When they are comfortable with those turns we can work on another set.

That's the approach my last instructor took. There's a good chance it'll help, and only time will tell how much.

This I find interesting, when you were learning to fly, on approach you had to worry about keeping level, watch your altitude, consider yaw from crosswinds, watch your speed, line up for the landing among other things. How did you get over information overload then?

Through lots of practice with an instructor. It took hundreds of landings for me to get to the point where I could land the plane on my own, and hundreds more to get to the point where I was reasonably proficient at it.

And that's with a process where you are dividing your attention between two things: the visual picture out the window, and the airspeed indicator, with the former getting the vast bulk of the attention.

In a way, I'm actually approaching driving the line the same way I approach landing the airplane. I'm using the sight picture out the window to guide my inputs. And just as with landing the airplane, at no time do I take my eyes off the sight picture for more than a fraction of a second. And that's despite the fact that landing the airplane is a relatively stable thing that only requires correctional inputs to account for changing wind conditions. Otherwise, it's essentially like driving in a straight line (actually, it's very much like driving a car in a straight line through gusty winds, except that you have two axes to manage instead of just one).


Driving on the road course is different from landing an airplane in that there's a lot more outside the car to watch out for than there is outside the airplane. Landing an airplane feels very sedate compared with driving the car on the track, at least for me at this point. Hopefully, training will take care of that problem...

I also think that the flying may help you on the track, using pitch to control speed and throttle to control altitude, is a bit like using the throttle to steer through corners.

I very much like the idea of being able to control my trajectory using more than one input.

I'd suggest there are a couple of things you can do to learn the limits. First is some corners are much safer to push than others, mistakes here usually lead to just an ugly turn. On the other hand going over a rise in the middle of a turn with a blind entrance to the next straight with a wall on the outside is probably not where you want to push it.

Makes sense. Though I think I'll wait until I have everything else down rock solid. One thing at a time!

 

[kcbrown]

Normal driving may not REQUIRE it, maybe. But that doesn't mean you can't try to make each drive through (say) any given highway entrance or exit ramp follow the same turn-in / apex / track out line. You don't have to be going fast to get used to following a racing line, and doing so in normal driving might result in just a little less mental load on the track once you realize "this isn't totally different from driving (wherever), mostly I'm just going faster". I think what I'm trying to get at is to understand the concept of "the line" more on a gut level than just academically/intellectually knowing it's what you should be doing.

By the way, this was an evil thing to suggest, because now I'm looking at every corner as if it's something I should learn to negotiate at speed, with a turn-in point, apex, and track-out point! And naturally, I'm attempting to "follow the line" now...

This has made normal driving quite a lot more enjoyable.

Shame on you.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Through lots of practice with an instructor. It took hundreds of landings for me to get to the point where I could land the plane on my own, and hundreds more to get to the point where I was reasonably proficient at it.

And that's with a process where you are dividing your attention between two things: the visual picture out the window, and the airspeed indicator, with the former getting the vast bulk of the attention.

In a way, I'm actually approaching driving the line the same way I approach landing the airplane. I'm using the sight picture out the window to guide my inputs. And just as with landing the airplane, at no time do I take my eyes off the sight picture for more than a fraction of a second. And that's despite the fact that landing the airplane is a relatively stable thing that only requires correctional inputs to account for changing wind conditions. Otherwise, it's essentially like driving in a straight line (actually, it's very much like driving a car in a straight line through gusty winds, except that you have two axes to manage instead of just one).

And here, I think, lies the eventual conclusion to the whole process. Practice. If it took "hundreds" of landings before you feel you got it completely down, then I would say that it's quite possible that it will take hundreds of laps to achieve the same level of competency and comfort.

One other factor that I'll bring up here about starting right in front of the hood... This is a common beginner mistake, and actually makes things a lot more difficult than it really needs to be. By staring at the track right in front of the car, the result of ANY control input is hugely magnified, compared to looking and judging based on a distant reference point. If you stare right in front of the car, you'll be making constant fine corrections and the workload from the feedback loop (see, correct, repeat) goes up dramatically compared to using a more distant point, say 700' or so down the track. Even when just driving in a straight line.

The same applies when taking a corner. If you stare at your turn in point until you actually turn in, and visually confirm that you have steering authority and then lift your eyes up to apex, you're probably mid-way between turn-in and apex before you actually get focused on apex and start making decisions on your line placement. If, however, the instant you commit to making turn-in, you lift your eyes up to track-out, the tendency towards constant, fine, fiddling corrections is drastically minimized. Point one: The car does not "instantly" change direction and start moving in a straight line from point to point, it moves in an arc. Point two: If you have an appropriate turn-in point, and drive to exit, you WILL hit apex if you're on a geometric line, assuming you can get the car to track-out without wholesale steering corrections. Having your eyes up really helps there, as you tend to average out the corrections compared to staring right over the hood. Remember that a geometric line is a single, simple arc, and your apex point is defined strictly by the radius of the arc (amount of steering input) and turn-in point. Turn in too soon, and you hit the berm at apex. Turn in too late, and your apex point is some distance away from the apex berm. The late-apex line, by contrast, is a compound radius turn, starting with a tighter-radius section (initial turn-in through apex) than the geometric line, followed by a wider-radius section (apex through track-out) allowing you to start accelerating sooner. For a car like a Mustang, the late-apex line is certainly the preferred line, but in this case it may be easier to start with the geometric-apex line, and then modify once sufficient experience (comfort, situational awareness, muscle memory) is gained.

And yes, this is something that can be practiced on the street in complete safety! When doing street "practice" it's obviously unsafe to "use the whole track" however there's nothing to say you can't "use the whole lane" as it were. This is particularly true of highway ramps that aren't cloverleafs, but describe a lazy "S" shape. Every time there is a direction change, make a habit of starting at the outside edge, apexing to the inside, then drifting back out again. You just might find that this path will also give you the smoothest (least lateral-G load at any given speed) ride as well. Focus on maintaining speed, but simultaneously minimizing G-load. Of course, keep your techniques together as well! Single, smooth wheel motion in, single smooth wheel motion out. On track, you're doing essentially the same thing, but instead of holding your speed constant, you're shooting for holding your lat-G load constant (at the edge of adhesion!) and maximizing speed relative to it!

In the end, I think this is just going to take time. Time to get used to the environment, time to get used to the pace, time to get used to the techniques, and then time to integrate it all.

 

[kcbrown]

And here, I think, lies the eventual conclusion to the whole process. Practice. If it took "hundreds" of landings before you feel you got it completely down, then I would say that it's quite possible that it will take hundreds of laps to achieve the same level of competency and comfort.

That wouldn't surprise me.

What I wonder, though, is how much of driving a given track will teach me merely the specifics of that track, and how much will teach me something that is generically useful for all tracks.

I expect that there's going to be at least some of the latter, that the practice of looking at the track-out point while driving the line towards it is something that you build a general feel for, especially with regard to keeping the apex in your peripheral vision.

I might have to limit some of my practice of that on the street, at least to start with. It won't do to turn in too early and hit the curb as a result of being focused on the track out point rather than the apex...

The same applies when taking a corner. If you stare at your turn in point until you actually turn in, and visually confirm that you have steering authority and then lift your eyes up to apex, you're probably mid-way between turn-in and apex before you actually get focused on apex and start making decisions on your line placement. If, however, the instant you commit to making turn-in, you lift your eyes up to track-out, the tendency towards constant, fine, fiddling corrections is drastically minimized.

I don't quite follow what you mean here by committing to making turn-in. Do you mean initially turning the steering wheel? If so, then I think I may already be doing that (changing where my eyes go at the instant I turn the wheel). Right now, though, my eyes are going to the apex when apparently they should be going straight to the track out point.

Would it make sense for me to put eyes on the apex first just to confirm its location and then immediately move to the track out point from there? That seems like it would work a little better for me, since I would not only be more aware of where the apex is, but would also get some sort of visual confirmation of the curve I should be following.

I dunno. Sounds like this is something that requires testing at the track!

In the end, I think this is just going to take time. Time to get used to the environment, time to get used to the pace, time to get used to the techniques, and then time to integrate it all.

It's certainly beginning to sound like it. And fortunately, I'm willing to keep at it as long as it takes, most especially since the process of learning this stuff on the track is so enjoyable regardless of whether or not everyone else is blowing by me (my only gripe about that is that having a bunch of traffic pass me is distracting, but that's probably a good thing in and of itself because it forces me to integrate outside traffic into my overall awareness of things).

 

[kcbrown]

The same applies when taking a corner. If you stare at your turn in point until you actually turn in, and visually confirm that you have steering authority and then lift your eyes up to apex, you're probably mid-way between turn-in and apex before you actually get focused on apex and start making decisions on your line placement. If, however, the instant you commit to making turn-in, you lift your eyes up to track-out, the tendency towards constant, fine, fiddling corrections is drastically minimized.

I've been trying this in the "simulator".

This is hard. When I do this, I can usually hit the track out point, but the problem is that half the time I wind up hitting it at an angle, and that takes me right off the track. I also find that a decent percentage of the time, I'm simply missing the apex on the inside entirely, sometimes with both wheels, as I steer the car directly at the track out point (I'm looking at it, therefore, that's where my mind automatically wants me to steer the car).

It's much easier for me to follow the line if I watch the apex for at least much of the time prior to arriving at it, then shift my eyes to the track out point. Weirdly enough, my peripheral vision seems to sort of watch the track-out point automatically, so I tend to have a much better sense of following the line when I use the apex as my primary reference rather than the track out point. I suppose, in some ways, that makes some sense. At turn-in, the apex is about halfway between your current location and the track-out point, so having your eyes on the apex winds up allowing you to see in your peripheral vision the entire path between you and the track out point (this presumes the track out point is visible. See below). If I have my eyes on the track out point, the path between me and the apex is essentially invisible, and I wind up missing the apex much of the time because my mind is no longer including it in the path.

There's also the problem that there are times that I can't even see the track out point until I am well into the turn. Some of that is probably a limitation of the "simulator" (the ability to swivel to see what you want makes this much easier in the real world in some cases), but some of it is the result of the track out point being hidden behind the apex when, e.g., the apex has a higher elevation than the track out point.

Any pointers?


ETA: I haven't gotten out on the street to try it myself yet, but in sitting as a passenger and watching the road while attempting to keep my eyes on "track out" points and such, it seems that it's easier for my peripheral vision to pick up the "apexes" than in the "simulator" (which is just a large projection onto a wall that occupies most of my field of view in a 19:10 format). So it's entirely possible that this is yet another thing that can be done in real life more easily than in "simulation".

ETA2: I've gone back in the "simulator" and tried following the line at substantially lower speeds while trying to keep my eyes on the track-out point and looking at the apex only at initial turn-in. That helps a lot with following the line. I suspect my speed was too close to the limits for this approach to be workable initially. I'll practice it a while and see what comes of it as regards building speed. It's possible that this approach will reduce some of the consistency issues I'd mentioned before.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I might have to limit some of my practice of that on the street, at least to start with. It won't do to turn in too early and hit the curb as a result of being focused on the track out point rather than the apex...

On the street you should be giving yourself more margin than you might at the track. But you can still use 11, maybe 12 feet out of a 16' wide ramp with your 6' wide car instead of only the middle 7 or 8. When you get consistent enough to think about using more, I think you'll know.

Hooked On Driving talks about driving in their events at "7/10ths" specifically because that leaves what they consider sufficient margin for error against disaster at the track. Half that - 3 or 4/10ths driving - is plenty for the street, and even that implies cornering g's 2 or 3 times the roughly 0.1 - 0.15 that the curve was intended to demand of average traffic.

Unfortunately, I can't relate any of those numbers to any simulator. I suspect there aren't enough other clues present in any affordable simulator to let you know how hard you're actually trying to "drive".


Norm

 

[kcbrown]

I tried the "eyes on track out point" on the highway today and discovered that not only can I maintain apex awareness with my peripheral vision, but I seem to be able to maintain apex and track-out point awareness in my peripheral vision while looking in the distance. This is much better than I expected.

Needless to say, I'm stoked! Can't wait to try this out at the track!

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I tried the "eyes on track out point" on the highway today and discovered that not only can I maintain apex awareness with my peripheral vision, but I seem to be able to maintain apex and track-out point awareness in my peripheral vision while looking in the distance. This is much better than I expected.

Needless to say, I'm stoked! Can't wait to try this out at the track!

Excellent news!! I was drafting a typically verbose, multi-paragraph response to your previous, but now that it's not needed, I just deleted it.

After you get used to it and try it on a track day, let us know how that's impacting the "cycles" issue wile maintaining situational awareness...

 

[kcbrown]

Sounds like we have similarly-specced cars here. I'm running the exact same tires, and saw about the same wear. I know I was not pushing really hard, so expect wear patterns to change. Those are great tires, though, aren't they?

They are indeed. I'm very impressed, especially for the price. If the treadwear value is anything to go by, these should last a while, too.

Since I'm in this for the fun of it, I'm not after ultimate grip or anything. I am interested in things like the balance of the car at the limits.


By the way, have any of you guys driven on Sonoma Raceway? If so, is it an exceptionally smooth track or something?

The reason I ask is that my dampers work a lot harder on the street (on the freeway, especially) than they did on this track. If Sonoma is typical of what you can expect out of a racetrack, then I'm quite skeptical of the benefit of monotube dampers, at least until you get into spring rates well beyond what I intend to run.

I was also impressed by how well the S197 chassis works on the track, even with the soft stock suspension. For a big, heavy muscle car it handles darn well.

Oddly enough, I don't regard the stock suspension as "soft" as such, but my experience is limited. I expect it would feel a lot softer if it had less compression damping. I expect I'll (later) go with roughly 2x the spring rate I currently have, and have compression damping sufficiently reduced such that the end result ride quality is about the same or better.

There is a ton of body roll, but that didn't seem to hurt it at the level we are driving right now. Those Recaro seats are definitely money well spent, I think almost as good as the Brembo brake package. They really come into their own at a HPDE.

Yes, I was especially impressed with the Recaros.

Also, as regards body roll, while there was a decent amount of it there, I didn't find it to be a total showstopper or anything, just noticeable. I suspect 2x spring rates will take care of that nicely.

Yep, that Coyote powerplant is about as much fun as a barrel of monkeys. The power is addicting & it sure is fun to be able to walk away from almost everyone down the straights.

Well, I didn't walk away from anyone, but then, it was my first time out. I'm walking before I'm running.

 

[claudermilk]

I didn't think the suspension was all that soft before hitting the track, either (well, there are a couple of spots on the commute home that hint at it). Once I got it out running at speed I could feel just how much suspension movement there was. No, not a showstopper, but having had a lowered car, I know there is a ton of improvement available in that one place alone.

I am with you on the walking before running. I was one of the slower cars in the morning sessions. That changed in the afternoon. It seemed the Coyote outpowered just about everything out there (at least for street cars not heavily modified).

Now that I've got a year of autocrossing and a track day under my belt, I'm comfortable with starting to throw parts at it. I'm a set of camber plates shy of getting it lowered. Hopefully in about a month, that will be done. Then to see what effects it had--and play with/learn tuning with the adjustable shocks.

 

[kcbrown]

Excellent news!! I was drafting a typically verbose, multi-paragraph response to your previous, but now that it's not needed, I just deleted it.

Well, as it happens, it's probably going to be needed after all.

While I seem to be able to negotiate curves through peripheral vision well enough when they're very shallow, the same isn't true of steeper curves.

I discovered this the hard way today (a few minutes ago, actually). While taking such a curve slowly (fortunately) while using my peripheral vision, I managed to hit the curb with my right rear wheel. This just scraped a bit of the side of the wheel, and it was both slow and on a relatively wet surface, so I don't think there's any real damage there (just cosmetic), but the fact of the matter is that I was trying to give myself several feet of buffer and I still managed to hit the curb. Needless to say, the resulting jolt came as quite a surprise. It didn't look like I was going to come anywhere close to hitting the curb.

As a result, it follows that I must watch what I'm doing on steeper curves, at least, which is going to be the bulk of them. My peripheral vision simply isn't going to cut it here. It simply doesn't have the required precision, and that's pretty much that. If I can't trust my peripheral vision when going slowly like that, there's no way I'm gong to trust it at speed.

So chalk this one up as a failed experiment. Something else is going to be needed.