MindIfISmoke's? Built Part 3.

[Backroad_Beast]

I feel like this is gonna be a fun one

 

[DietCoke]

As I understand it the tune was for 16psi with 15.5 degrees of total spark advance up top, 9.8 cr and Matt was using 101 fuel. That's not a recipe for a blown motor imo.

I suppose I'm somewhat biased because I know the tuner. I can tell you he makes sure the maf transfer is correct prior to doing anything further with the tune. The maf xfer is important because load is based off of it. Load is important because the fuel and spark tables are based from load and rpm. It's not like he's someone who just plugs value files in and calls it a day.

20 psi of air is still going to read 20 psi of air, and the maf is going to see values that correlate to that. The absolute amount of boost should not change the AFR that the engine sees, because the tune should scale off of the MAF and MAP values, regardless of what it actually makes. (And of course, it will always run half to a full point leaner on the street then on the dyno).

What I'm getting at is I'm almost positive it was hurt before our run. Three seconds of WOT isnt (shouldn't be) enough to melt through a piston like it did if the piston was in good condition to start.

Edit: I don't have a picker but I've got an unoccupied engine stand if you need it Matt.

 

[MindIfISmoke?]

I may need it man. Ill have two motors sitting in the garage I need to transfer shit back and forth

 

[BruceH]

20 psi of air is still going to read 20 psi of air, and the maf is going to see values that correlate to that. The absolute amount of boost should not change the AFR that the engine sees, because the tune should scale off of the MAF and MAP values, regardless of what it actually makes. (And of course, it will always run half to a full point leaner on the street then on the dyno).

What I'm getting at is I'm almost positive it was hurt before our run. Three seconds of WOT isnt (shouldn't be) enough to melt through a piston like it did if the piston was in good condition to start.

Edit: I don't have a picker but I've got an unoccupied engine stand if you need it Matt.

I think we are saying the same thing from different viewpoints.

 

[burkem]

So youre building another motor? or are you returning to stock?

 

[TurboX]

20 psi of air is still going to read 20 psi of air, and the maf is going to see values that correlate to that. The absolute amount of boost should not change the AFR that the engine sees, because the tune should scale off of the MAF and MAP values, regardless of what it actually makes. (And of course, it will always run half to a full point leaner on the street then on the dyno).

What I'm getting at is I'm almost positive it was hurt before our run. Three seconds of WOT isnt (shouldn't be) enough to melt through a piston like it did if the piston was in good condition to start.

Edit: I don't have a picker but I've got an unoccupied engine stand if you need it Matt.

Im not tuner but I believe you are wrong in many ways. If you have X amount of air that a Mass air meter is calibrated for and X plus 5 psi goes thru, your gonna have problems, otherwise whats the point of needing a tune. How can the tuner know how much fuel to add or how the car will react to added boost if its never seen that volume of air ? If it was that simple we could all just turn up our boost or add bigger Turbos and go without needing a retune.

3 seconds is a eternity for something to happen, you realize that at 5500 RPM in 3 seconds a motor has rotated 250 revs and fired 125 times ? Ive seen shit happen in 1/2 a second on a FI Motor. Add a little N20 to your car and I dare you to cut fuel for 3 seconds, then get back to us Chebby boy.

You now have nothing more to add than bad mouth Marc or his shop, you were the 1st to post this carnage. Unless you have facts to back up the claims welcome to the forum but sit back and relax or get the fuck out if your here to cause trouble

 

[MindIfISmoke?]

Thanks for the info buzz. I am by no means pointing fingers at anyone. I just want clarification

 

[AbdullaGT500]

Im not tuner but I believe you are wrong in many ways. If you have X amount of air that a Mass air meter is calibrated for and X plus 5 psi goes thru, your gonna have problems, otherwise whats the point of needing a tune. How can the tuner know how much fuel to add or how the car will react to added boost if its never seen that volume of air ? If it was that simple we could all just turn up our boost or add bigger Turbos and go without needing a retune.

I went from 9 lbs of boost to 16 and the air fuel is actually more rich now than before WITHOUT changing the tune. I've verified it was safe with multiple datalogs with LITO.

 

[BruceH]

Im not tuner but I believe you are wrong in many ways. If you have X amount of air that a Mass air meter is calibrated for and X plus 5 psi goes thru, your gonna have problems, otherwise whats the point of needing a tune. We can all just tune up the boost and go

3 seconds is a eternity for something to happen, you realize that at 5500 RPM in 3 seconds a motor has rotated 250 revs and fired 125 times ? Ive seen shit happen in 1/2 a second on a FI Motor. Add a little N20 to your car and I dare you to cut fuel for 1/4 second, then get back to us Chebby boy.

You now have nothing more to add than bad mouth Marc or his shop, unless you have facts to back up the claims welcome to the forum but sit back and relax or get the fuck out

That's where the load with failed maf table comes in.

About the whole tune thing. It's something I'd be thinking about if it was my motor and someone else did the tune. I'd really be wondering if I didn't know the whole process involved. It's got to be on the minds of anyone reading this thread imo.

Matt has alot going on right now and this is taking up space in his head. I would hope that a discussion about what happened and the likelyhood of the root cause would help somehow no matter what the determination was.

I'm pretty sure dietcoke has a story about nitrous. I've gotten to know a few of the local GM guys and I'm fairly certain I recall a discussion about a Gen 5 Camaro motor going while being sprayed.

 

[danbogart]

Nobody knows about that yet Bruce. Hush hush lol

I will be up there tomorrow afternoon if you'd like to roll by[/QUOTE

I do! Going to be a busy week

Party at Dans!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[TurboX]

I went from 9 lbs of boost to 16 and the air fuel is actually more rich now than before WITHOUT changing the tune. I've verified it was safe with multiple datalogs with LITO.

Like I said, Im not a tuner Maybe Manuel,Marc or somebody can explain more without going proprietary secrets Always nice to read and learn something new.

 

[toorbeenee]

#7

if you need anything im here,

btw how is the head, it wont hurt if you check the valves and maybe you should do a pressure test on that side,,,all the best to you

 

[Marc s]

On Mod motors, I have found that for every 2 degrees you advance the cams, you lose 200 RPM's off of the peak.

Camshafts on turbos are tricky specifically on the exhaust side. A turbo motor has a longer power stroke than an N/A, SC, or N2O motor because the piston forces out the exhaust at higher pressure. I believe the powerstroke is an extra 20 degrees of crank duration. Hard to verify that, but it does stand to reason. This would mean opening the exhaust valve too early would cost you a lot of power.

Typically the restriction in a Mod motor is on the intake side. On an intake restricted setup that has plenty of exhaust flow, if you open the exhaust valve to early you'll end up over scavenging the cylinder and you will get exhaust reversion. Now, when there's plenty of overlap & RPM's are high enough, this is not a problem. The over scavanging helps pull in the incoming air charge. But when there is very little overlap, like on a stock camshaft. And there is extreme exhaust pressure in the exhaust manifold, over scavanging the exhaust can really hurt performance as exhaust gasses will return to the chamber & dilute the incoming aircharge causing a slower reving motor and a HP loss up high. At no time in a turbo application is the intake pressure higher than the exhaust. RPM & velocity through the intake tract can help force out the higher exhaust pressures, but at low RPM there is very little intake airflow velocity so delaying cam timing events becomes very crucial.

One of the things that I had to consider when tuning Matt's engine was the overly advanced stock cam that have very little overlap. Because of the advanced timing event's, closing the intake valve early, increases cylinder pressure significantly. High cylinder pressure on pump gas is a bad thing (see Matt's build thread #2). With a different set of cams or degreed stock cams, I would be more comfortable getting aggresive with the timing tables with pump fuel.

IMO, the only upside to advancing cams is slightly quicker turbo spooling. Again, this is due to trapping the intake charge by an early closing intake valve.

On turbo applications, I've always gained a lot of HP from retarding camshafts that were overly advanced. I believe Matt will see close to 100whp gain from replacing the cams or 50+whp gain from degreeing the stock one.

Does anyone remember this post. When Matt told me over the phone that he was going to race Dietcoke, I was very clear to not mess with his boost controller because this engines cylinder pressure is very high. He told me he wasn't going to raise his boost from 16psi. But everyone goes right to tune issue don't they?

Why did you go with the 4032?? I thought your last failure was due to the wrong piston and ring gap..? Wonder if the wire tuck had anything to do with it...maybe wire to injector shorted out or something else...Goodluck man I can't believe the shit you have gone through

We went with 4032's because that's the only thing available for the Saleen stroke. 2618's would have to be custom made and he didn't want to wait 6-8 weeks.

As I understand it the tune was for 16psi with 15.5 degrees of total spark advance up top, 9.8 cr and Matt was using 101 fuel. That's not a recipe for a blown motor imo.

The tune was for 16psi and 16.5 degrees of timing. His engine CCed at 9.69:1 compression. The ring end gap is .024 and the piston to cylinder wall is .003.

Zero reason to melt a piston if thats what happened. Thats all tune, barring a stuck shut injector. Hate to point fingers, but it is what it is.

Melted pistons are all tune? You need to spend a little more time at the track and less time on forums listening to people that don't know much. Point your finger where you want, the tune Matt had was solid for his setup. I was very specific to not raise the boost past 16 until his advanced cams were resolved. He wanted to beat you so bad, he did it anyway and that's my fault? Point you fingers where you want.

Ya, I'm a little pissed off everyone. I spent $1,000.00 of my own money to get Matt back on the road and then the blame points back to me? Lesson learned I guess. I will go back to building engines for people that appreciate it, carry on.

 

[MindIfISmoke?]

Wo Wo Wo I never pointed any fingers. I haven't bashed or said anything about the tune Marc.

1) my boost controller gain when tuned was set at 60. I was told I could run that safely. It was set to 55 when I left so it would be even more "conservative" then it was.

2) when I raced Chris aka diet coke I set the boost controller back at 60 like I was told i could do.

3) it was my fault for not data logging

4) I HAVEN'T PLACED THE BLAME ON ANYONE.

 

[danbogart]

Does anyone remember this post. When Matt told me over the phone that he was going to race Dietcoke, I was very clear to not mess with his boost controller because this engines cylinder pressure is very high. He told me he wasn't going to raise his boost from 16psi. But everyone goes right to tune issue don't they?



We went with 4032's because that's the only thing available for the Saleen stroke. 2618's would have to be custom made and he didn't want to wait 6-8 weeks.



The tune was for 16psi and 16.5 degrees of timing. His engine CCed at 9.69:1 compression. The ring end gap is .024 and the piston to cylinder wall is .003.



Melted pistons are all tune? You need to spend a little more time at the track and less time on forums listening to people that don't know much. Point your finger where you want, the tune Matt had was solid for his setup. I was very specific to not raise the boost past 16 until his advanced cams were resolved. He wanted to beat you so bad, he did it anyway and that's my fault? Point you fingers where you want.

Ya, I'm a little pissed off everyone. I spent $1,000.00 of my own money to get Matt back on the road and then the blame points back to me? Lesson learned I guess. I will go back to building engines for people that appreciate it, carry on.

Marc, I understand why you are upset (businesses run on reputation) but I really hope you aren't referring to Matt when you talk about blame being placed. I am on nearly every forum this is being discussed on and talked to Matt on the phone for quite a while and I have yet to hear one word come out of his mouth about TMS. Now I don't know about a lot of other guys, but not being certain about what caused it, I can't say I would be as calm about the situation as he's been.

 

[DietCoke]

That's where the load with failed maf table comes in.

About the whole tune thing. It's something I'd be thinking about if it was my motor and someone else did the tune. I'd really be wondering if I didn't know the whole process involved. It's got to be on the minds of anyone reading this thread imo.

Matt has alot going on right now and this is taking up space in his head. I would hope that a discussion about what happened and the likelyhood of the root cause would help somehow no matter what the determination was.

I'm pretty sure dietcoke has a story about nitrous. I've gotten to know a few of the local GM guys and I'm fairly certain I recall a discussion about a Gen 5 Camaro motor going while being sprayed.

Sure do, melted 7 plugs and overheated a ring which grabbed a cyl wall and broke my first motor. What was fine for 1320ft was too much heat for a high speed run (150+) and ductile iron rings, and thats all she wrote. Pistons were nice and clean, though.

@ marc, call it what you want. Matt doesnt share my viewpoints, they are my own. We can agree to disagree and thats fine. If you felt there was an eng issue with cyl pressure and you still built it and tuned it and sent him on his way (charity or not), then that falls on you whether or not you believe it does. If that upsets you, sorry. Agree to disagree.

@buzz, you build a VE table off of what the maf sees vs fuel trims. There is no such thing as what the maf is tuned for +5psi, it would just read more airflow (hz) as would the map sensor and it would add fuel.


Off topic slightly, but what heat range were the plugs?

 

[MindIfISmoke?]

One step colder then stock

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Eitherway Matt's car was MOVIN OUT!!!!!!!!!! That thing was kickin in the video!!!!!!!!! WOW!!

It'll all work out.

Friendships are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important than an engine so protect it at all cost!

 

[Marc s]

Sure do, melted 7 plugs and overheated a ring which grabbed a cyl wall and broke my first motor. What was fine for 1320ft was too much heat for a high speed run (150+), and thats all she wrote. Pistons were nice and clean, though.

@ marc, call it what you want. Matt doesnt share my viewpoints, they are my own. We can agree to disagree and thats fine. If you felt there was an eng issue with cyl pressure and you still built it and tuned it and sent him on his way (charity or not), then that falls on you whether or not you believe it does. If that upsets you, sorry. Agree to disagree.

I could care less if you and I agree or not. I'm not upset with you or Matt.

With the overly advanced cams, I clearly stated to limit the boost to 16psi. For whatever reason, I was told that the 20psi alarm went off when he raced you. Did the boost hit 20psi or was it higher? Knowbody will ever know for sure.

One thing is certain, the piston failure was due to excessive cylinder pressure. As I understand it, all of the plugs still have their ground straps intact. If detonation was the cause, the plugs would show it. If Matt looks at the plugs, the color of the ground strap will show if cylinder temps played a part as well.

 

[jodadejss06gt]

I've seen my boost controller raise higher on the street than on the dyno. I run my controller lower than what I was tuned for just to keep the numbers down. I also had more time to play around with mine than going straight to the track, so I knew that. My over boost shutdown is setup so that I can get a little spike and it won't shutdown, but more than 2psi over my tune, it reverts back to wastegate spring pressure so I don't go boom.

Matt interested to see what this new block will do. I'm truely jealous. When I do a built block, I'll be going with something similar to what you are about to put in it. When are you going to divulge the specs?