Welcome. I'm also in Ohio and have been driving in NASA TT in the Great Lakes region for the last 6 years. Unfortunately this forum has been pretty dead for the last couple years, but there is a lot of good info if you do some digging. Feel free to post any questions for which you're struggling to find answers, and we'll be happy to help.
We can definitely talk about NASA TT here.I'd like to chat about TT actually. I have a TON of HPDE experience over the years, open passing in advance group, etc. but haven't done much with NASA. I heard it's kind of rough getting started with them if that's the case.
Curious what your experience has been, thoughts, recommendations, etc. Thanks!
Actually, I'm curious to learn what you've heard about it. It might be good feedback for the guys who run the program in our region.I'd like to chat about TT actually. I have a TON of HPDE experience over the years, open passing in advance group, etc. but haven't done much with NASA. I heard it's kind of rough getting started with them if that's the case.
Curious what your experience has been, thoughts, recommendations, etc. Thanks!
https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/lap-time-thread.6197/
Pretty comprehensive pony car list
We can definitely talk about NASA TT here.
I have been doing time trial since 1990, with NASA since 2006 and SCCA for a number of years also. S197 and S550 Mustangs, among many others.
1. What region are you in / tracks do you frequent?
2. How serious / competitive do you want to be?
3. Do you have a dedicated track car / trailer / race tires or will you be driving to events?
Welcome!
Actually, I'm curious to learn what you've heard about it. It might be good feedback for the guys who run the program in our region.
The HPDE ladder in the Great Lakes region has actually changed quite a bit since I started in TT back in 2014. At the time, you just needed to show basic competency for the HPDE group in a check ride to advance to the next level, and there was a two-day "evaluation" period once you got your provisional TT license. Over the last few years, our region has put a large emphasis on the "E" part of "HPDE" and added a lot more requirements to advance. There are mandatory (online?) tests to advance from one level to the next, and there are a few additional requirements that were recently added including taking/evaluating tire temps in HPDE3/4 and measuring camber/toe on your car. There are also a lot more drills in HPDE3 to prepare new drivers for W2W racing such as driving three-wide around the track and mock race starts. From what I've seen, this has definitely improved the caliber of drivers graduating into TT/W2W, but the process seems a bit more tedious. If you're serious about competing, the extra requirements become a minor inconvenience. If you're not, I could see it being a bit annoying.
Our TT groups have been a bit sparse this year, but I suspect COVID has a lot to do with that. We typically have 30-40 cars in the group (for all classes), and often times Mid-Ohio sells out and has 45+ cars on the track at the same time. Because of this, the free-for-all Saturday warm-up session can be a bit of a clusterf**k, but the rest of the weekend tends to go pretty smooth because grid is set by your best time of the weekend. We follow the national rules with no passing on the warm-up lap and first green lap without a point-by; otherwise passing is open.
Do you know what TT class you'll likely fit in? I'm in TT3 and would love some competition.
This is really helpful feedback, and it's not the first time I've heard people say similar things about the recent changes. I'll try to relay this to somebody who has more control over the program if you don't mind.Thanks for the information, this lines up with what I've been hearing. For HPDE guys, NASA hasn't been a go to in my group of friends because of the track time reduced by drills and tire/alignment "teachings" being forced onto entrants who have the skill to be in 3 or 4, but lack the desire to ultimately come away with ability to do TT or through to a comp license. I have heard that their events are quite busy, add in the higher expense than most places, along with the decreased track time, it makes for a tough sell for those not fully committed in both time and dollars.
I think the challenge is to not lose track of the end goal. Whether it's TT or W2W, you're not winning a huge cash purse, mainly trinkets and tire budget. Forcing 2-3 years of "Development" to experienced drivers albeit with no "log book" is excessive, especially when paired with lower track time, and mandates on # of events attended, etc. makes something that was designed to get people competing without a large personal budget, unrealistic.
I can tell you I've heard from probably a dozen people this year alone that if I'm interested in TT or W2W with NASA GL I better start now, and be prepared to spend a lot of time (2 years) and money (2 years of events priced high and lower track time). Everyone I know has started with NASA, realized the above, and switched to SCCA.
Yeah, it gets a little busy with 45 cars on track and that's why the warm-up lap is critical to get right. We bunch up and do 50-60 mph while warming up our tires until we get through Thunder Valley. Even still, I catch the back of the field after 3-4 laps. I think Brian Faessler (PAEracing in the thread linked in Terry's post) is only getting 1-2 open laps but that car is pretty damn fast. However, because you want to run your fast lap ASAP in TT before the engine heat-soaks, this isn't such a big deal. The downside is that everybody in TT3 and faster is basically forced to use Hoosier A7's at a minimum. In the slower classes, A7's are discouraged (if even allowed) via large power/weight penalties, so that helps to reduce everybody's expenses.Good info, thanks.
Wow, 45 cars on track!?! That might be prohibitive in and of itself!!!!
Regarding my classing, no, my plan is to completely remove the existing mods that I bought the car with (motor is 100% stock minus axle back exhaust) and figure out the best class for me, and mod up to that.
What are you running car wise?
This is really helpful feedback, and it's not the first time I've heard people say similar things about the recent changes. I'll try to relay this to somebody who has more control over the program if you don't mind.
Interesting information. I will admit I'm starting from square one as it relates to knowledge of how TT works so this is helpful. The PAE s550 is ridiculous, I heard on a video recently that it (and Faessler) led every lap of every race they entered in it LOL.Yeah, it gets a little busy with 45 cars on track and that's why the warm-up lap is critical to get right. We bunch up and do 50-60 mph while warming up our tires until we get through Thunder Valley. Even still, I catch the back of the field after 3-4 laps. I think Brian Faessler (PAEracing in the thread linked in Terry's post) is only getting 1-2 open laps but that car is pretty damn fast. However, because you want to run your fast lap ASAP in TT before the engine heat-soaks, this isn't such a big deal. The downside is that everybody in TT3 and faster is basically forced to use Hoosier A7's at a minimum. In the slower classes, A7's are discouraged (if even allowed) via large power/weight penalties, so that helps to reduce everybody's expenses.
For a 4.6L S197, TT4 is probably your best bet but you might be going against some really fast E36 M3's. There's a local guy who runs ST4 with an E36 M3 that can run 1:32's on the Pro Course, and I can barely do that in TT3. If you're interested in doing W2W in the future, there are three very talented Spec Iron drivers in our region and you'll learn a lot in that class. They took 1st through 3rd place at nationals last year.
I have a 2011 GT that I've been developing a lot over the years:
I'm also in Columbus. There are a few other NASA TT regulars in the area but unfortunately none with S197s.
Smart that you are looking at classes and rules before you start the build. 200TW is going to be an issue if you get into NASA TT, as their modifiers for these tires aren't good enough to equalize with Hoosiers - which win virtually every TT class. I have written two long, detailed forum threads about all of this, below....I picked up the 3v S197 for my HPDE car/build/racecar. It's currently a basic suspension/brake car with 18x10s and 200tw tires.
I have a pile of Cortex parts in the garage, and plan on doing some maintenance over the winter, but figured I should do some research on TT as well as a path to potentially getting a comp license, etc..
Historically I'd just mod for feel instead of a class, and that always did me well based off lap times, but never set me up to be able to migrate anywhere without altering the car.
Oh yeah, I realize lap times are only getting faster. Danny Popp did a 1:30 flat on 200TW in his monster C5 a few years ago too, insanity.I didn't get into the 1:32's until last year, and that was after a lot of car and driver development. If you think that's fast... the Pro Course track record for my class (TT3) is a 1:31.1 set by a pretty well developed Corvette many years ago. The ST3 record was reset at nationals last year with a 1:30.7, but that was with an Audi RS3 LMS (TCR) racecar. However, it was a "cheater" car because there was a massive power/weight advantage applied to FWD cars. The rules were revised this year to address the disparity, so that shouldn't happen again.
A 1:38.9 on the Club Course in a street car is honestly pretty fast, even on Pirelli slicks. As a comparison, I just reset the record in my class for that configuration with a 1:34.8. Four seconds sounds like a lot, but there are a lot of compromises you tend to make with a street car including not driving 100% for self-preservation reasons.
I don't have a build thread, but I've shared a bunch about my setup in posts I've made here over the last couple years. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I've never tried a watts link so I can't comment about its effectiveness, but it is legal in my class without any penalties. To allow my front splitter to work, I have a pretty stiff suspension so I'm not too worried about rear axle movement. I'm sure Terry can share his experience with the two.
Smart that you are looking at classes and rules before you start the build. 200TW is going to be an issue if you get into NASA TT, as their modifiers for these tires aren't good enough to equalize with Hoosiers - which win virtually every TT class. I have written two long, detailed forum threads about all of this, below.
- NASA TT rules discussion: https://www.vorshlag.com/forums/for...a-time-trials-rules-suggestions-from-vorshlag
- NASA TT rules and 200TW tires discussion: https://www.vorshlag.com/forums/for...-tt-rules-overview-200tw-texas-region-classes
I would definitely look at NASA TT4 and TT3 to build around, if you are serious about Time Trial - because NASA is the most serious place to compete at (and has great contingencies). The issues with both TT classes and your car are below. We have campaigned cars in both TT3 and TT4 classes, among others.
The biggest differences between the two are shown below:
The added tire restrictions for TT4 are there to cut down on costs, but tend to favor the smaller/lighter cars that seem to dominate there. Not saying a Mustang or even a Corvette couldn't do well there, just isn't happening much. But a 4.6 3V Mustang might be perfectly suited for TT4...
- TT3 - Adjusted P-to-W ratio of 10:1 or higher, penalties for non-stock aero
- TT4 - Adjusted P-to-W ratio of 12:1 or higher, penalties for non-stock aero + additional aero and tire restrictions
Since TT4 (ST4 has the same rules, just W2W) has a max tire width rule depending on weight, you need to keep that in mind. 100% chance your S197 will be over 3000 pounds with driver so your max section width is 282 mm... you will want to run a tire at the bleeding edge of this limit for a heavy car like a Mustang.
Then know you have to measure using the NASA approved "standardized tire measuring tools" introduced in 2018. No longer would the tire size stamped on the sidewall matter - you would have to measure your mounted wheel and tires like this. Above my TT4 BMW's 17x10" wheels and 245/40/17 Hoosier R7 barely cleared this tool, and the 275/35/17 was looking like it might not. ASK AROUND in your area for TT guys and what they can fit inside the spec tools.
TT3 has more freedoms and you can run any width tire and even non-DOT tires, but as others have mentioned TT3 is FAST AF. And I'm not sure you can get an S197 light enough or powerful enough with a 4.6 3V to get to the power-to-weight ratio limit. We ran 335mm front and 345mm rear A7s with full aero at the limit of the p-to-w for TT3 class and were competitive.
If you are less serious about TT look at GTA, Grid Life, and SCCA Time Trial. They all have rules that don't really measure weight or power, so you will be scratching your head. GTA and GL are more about what treadwear tire you want to run and "drivetrain layout" more than anything. Unlimited power is fine there. SCCA TT is about ... well, nobody knows. They are so new at this that their rules are a hot mess.
Good luck,
They're measuring the actual tire width on your car using a metal template similar to the one in Terry's picture under the ST4 tire rules in his post. Here is a thread with some examples of working combinations: https://community.drivenasa.com/topic/48962-nasa-tire-section-width-user-contributed-database/.Yep, car will 100% be over 3k. Interesting, this means wheel width also plays into the decision vs just always going max width (or even a simple 18x11). Dumb question, are they measuring just the tire then or wheel width also?