Non-intercooled + Meth

punisher1982

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I am trying to decided between an intercooled Vortech V3 or a non intercooled V3 with meth kit. I found a good deal on a non intercooled system so I am trying to decided to:

1. Buy the non-intercooled now and install a meth kit or

2. Save more and go with an intercooled setup.

What do you all think?
 

JeremyH

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How good are you with basic hand tools? You can get the non intercooled kit and instead of spending $250-300 on a meth kit that you have to refill, you can build your own intercooler setup for around $300.
 

2014_GT

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I went with the non-HO and meth like you're thinking. Two months later, I'm installing my own A2A set-up. Read into that as you will.
 

stkjock

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FWIW

When I put a Vortech on my 06 I did the math, HP/$, now its 4 yrs later so I don't recall the actual #s but it was a better bang for the buck to go HO (cooled) then non. also cheaper to do it the first time rather than add it later
 

punisher1982

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Yeah looking at the numbers it makes more sense to get it all done at once and not peice meal it together. Just gotta be patient I guess
 

Steedman07

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I am a minority here on this, but I like running meth. If I keep the Vortech after I fortify the internals, I will have to inter-cool it, but for now at 12 psi of boost, meth works just fine for me..Now, I dont drive my car much at all, so I dont go through much boost juice. It would probably be a pain in the ass if I drove my car alot and romped on it.

Hoping for an 11.5-11.7 next friday at the rental..:boobies: No inter-cooler:clap:
 

BruceH

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I am trying to decided between an intercooled Vortech V3 or a non intercooled V3 with meth kit. I found a good deal on a non intercooled system so I am trying to decided to:

1. Buy the non-intercooled now and install a meth kit or

2. Save more and go with an intercooled setup.

What do you all think?

I just recently put a non-intercooled paxton on. The parts for an air to air should be here tomorrow. I'll have to do some fabbing since it's a generic kit but figuring high on my parts cost I will save over $900 doing it this way. And I get to have the boost right now.
 

Full_Tilt

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Water injection can more than make up for an intercooler. The real advantage of an intercooler is reliability.
WI doesn't have to be unreliable but many people and companies selling the kits make poor decisions that lead to poor reliability. Most notably the use of high concentrations of methanol which corrode and clog nozzles.
Dystilled water with <10% methanol will prevent algae bloom. That is all that is needed.
Use the FI system for fueling needs, not the WI system.
 
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Towelly

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I got my Paxton Novi 2200 HO kit for a great price from Bob Kurgan of kurganmotorsports.com I didn't even have to think twice about going HO after Bob quoted me a price on the HO kit. I would shop around and compare prices. You'll find that doing a DIY kit VS ordering a intercooled kit will be very similar in price and you don't have to do any guessing. It's all right there for you when you order the already cooled kit. No cutting, mixing and matching parts and such. I got the kit shipped for under $4k, but keep in mind I ordered the "tuner" kit.
 

Swarzkopf

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Water injection can more than make up for an intercooler. The real advantage of an intercooler is reliability.
WI doesn't have to be unreliable but many people and companies selling the kits make poor decisions that lead to poor reliability. Most notably the use of high concentrations of methanol which corrode and clog nozzles.

Where do you get this shit from? Any system designed for methanol injection isn't going to have problems with corroded...or clogged...nozzles when injecting meth. If you fab up your own using aquarium parts I guess you could have some issues, but if you use the right parts, no.

Dystilled water with <10% methanol will prevent algae bloom. That is all that is needed.

No. It depends on the application. Yes, straight water injection is great at cooling the charge. For max effort applications, a higher percentage of meth in the mix is better at killing knock and allows more compression, boost, and timing and will make more power when the power adder/engine combination calls for it.

You're being way too general, which seems to be a pattern with your posts.

Use the FI system for fueling needs, not the WI system.

Again, it depends completely on the application. Since you supposedly come from a super tuner import background, I'd think you'd know that some of the fastest 4-banger turbo cars in the world suck down massive amounts of methanol (to handle the massive amounts of boost they're stuffing into their cylinders).
 

Full_Tilt

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Even the kits are prone to have corrosion issues, they often have aluminum screen inside the nozzles which are designed to catch debris, but over time the methanol will actually cause the screen itself to corrode and clog.
I dont doubt that some manufactures have adressed this issue but I know for a fact that this was still happening very recently.

Yes, methanol is more volatile than water, this volatility will cause a drop in IAT due to the evaporation phase change. But the lowering of IATs is only an added benefit, the water acts as an anti-detonate, hindering detonation in the cylinder, during combustion. These anti-detonative properties of water outweigh the effect of methanols higher octane within the same volume.
One has higher volatility, one has better anti-detonative properties, this is why you use a mix.

Lets put it this way. If you had a car running on a pure methanol fuel system, and you pushed it to the limits of detonation, you could inject water and increase the threshold further. Make sense?

Just because a bunch of drag racers allegedly inject pure or high concentrations of methanol is not an argument for anything, neither you nor I know exactly what they are doing with their injection systems or if they actually know that whatever concentration is best. They are mostly just normal people who are just as likely to follow word of mouth wisdom as anybody else.


My advice still stands. By keeping the concentrations low you do not need to adjust the fuel tables, youre eliminating any risk of corrosion on any aluminum components (either in the WI system or in the engine), and it is more than capable of doing what the OP and just about anybody would need.
You can try to nitpick it all you want, but there is thought and understanding behind what I say, even though you seem to assume that Im just going against the status quo for the hell of it.
 
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Swarzkopf

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Even the kits are prone to have corrosion issues, they often have aluminum screen inside the nozzles which are designed to catch debris, but over time the methanol will actually cause the screen itself to corrode and clog.
I dont doubt that some manufactures have adressed this issue but I know for a fact that this was still happening very recently.

You're misinformed or confused. Most of the clogged nozzle issues over the years have been caused by people using windshield washer fluid that contains glycol or other washing detergents in their meth injection kits. These compounds can build up in fittings and nozzles and lead to clogging. This clogging is NOT due to methanol. Methanol will not clog anything when used with the right components, which every kit manufacturer is and has been using for quite some time (Devil's Own, Snow, Cooling Mist).

Yes, methanol is more volatile than water, this volatility will cause a drop in IAT due to the evaporation phase change, just as water will (to a lesser extent). But the lowering of IATs is only an added benefit, the water acts as an anti-detonate, hindering detonation in the cylinder, during combustion. These anti-detonative properties of water outweigh the effect of methanols higher octane within the same volume.
One has higher volatility, one has better anti-detonative properties, this is why you use a mix.

I thought you weren't supposed to use a mix? Yes, water is great at cooling the charge and at suppressing detonation. Methanol is great at absorbing heat, too. The AFR spike it provides gives additional protection against detonation, too, but again, it depends on each individual setup and all of the variables that go with it. For my own use- which is the exact same as the OPs, by the way- I'm finding the best results so far using 30-40% methanol starting at 3 PSI.

By the way, you act like methanol doesn't have any effect on detonation- it sure does. Even in straight meth form, you're injecting a higher octane fuel (high octane means less prone to detonation) that is going to resist detonation.

You use a mix for a variety of reasons.
Just because a bunch of drag racers allegedly inject pure or high concentrations of methanol is not an argument for anything, neither you nor I know exactly what they are doing with their injection systems or if they actually know that whatever concentration is best. They are mostly just normal people who are just as likely to follow word of mouth wisdom as anybody else.

I know what I'm doing with my own setup, regardless of what other folks are doing with their systems. I'd been doing quite a bit of testing on different combinations of meth/water (and tried ethanol and isopropyl, too).

Without taking up too much space, I tried 10% meth, and found that the car had a bit of stumble when the injection started. This went away with a higher meth content. So far, it seems that ~30-40% methanol seems to work the best at lowering IATs for me without causing a stumble at injection time.

The kit suppliers all recommend a meth/water blend, too- most seem to go with 40-49% meth. Combining my own personal experience with the recommendations of all the big meth injection kit suppliers, I have to conclude that while mostly water may work in some cases, a meth/water blend in more equal amounts seems to work better for me and plenty of others, too.

My advice still stands. By keeping the concentrations low you do not need to adjust the fuel tables, youre eliminating any risk of corrosion on any aluminum components (either in the WI system or in the engine), and it is more than capable of doing what the OP and just about anybody would need.

You can try to nitpick it all you want, but there is thought and understanding behind what I say, even though you seem to assume that Im just going against the status quo for the hell of it.

How many non-intercooled 3Vs have you installed meth injection kits on again?

I'm not worried about aluminum corrosion. I'm not worried about the fattening of my AFR- I compensate for it by adding timing based on IAT (based on the meth injection being present).

So far, so good. We'll see what it does at the track this week. This topic is fresh in mind because I've been thinking about it a lot recently, since I just installed a meth kit after doing a bunch of research.

For the record, intercooling is still better, too. :)
 

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