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Bad Horsie

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Hey all!,

Noob here. Picking up my 08 GT coupe deluxe 5 spd 47,000 original miles next week. Going to start HPDE in a month or 2.
Car is all stock with Cooper Zeon RS3-A's. first goal is Brake upgrade. I've used power slot rotors and Hawk pads in the past on my Dodge Dakota and they worked great.
what do you suggest without breaking the bank.

Thanks,

Intis
 

SoundGuyDave

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Flush the fluid with fresh DOT3, slap on a set of Hawk HT-10's (or DTC-60 if you have previous experience on track), and go have fun. Make sure you bed the pads properly, though, and bring a spare bottle of fluid to do a quick bleed at lunch. If the bug bites, then ducts and Brembos are in your future!
 

Sky Render

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What Dave said. Put on some decent pads, flush the brake fluid (use some ATE gold if you want), and go have fun.
 

Iceman62

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Congrats on the new-to-you ride and...time to make it your own. Ride-on!
 

SoundGuyDave

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Make sure fluid is Dot 4 :)

Why DOT4 for a track newb? $18 for a half-liter is a bit pricy, particularly if you're only going to one track day during the six months before the fluid ages out? Stock DOT3, if fresh, is plenty for somebody sticking a toe in the water.

With full-thickness pads in a race compound, you won't get enough heat transfer into the fluid to worry about in 15-20 minute sessions in a stock car, particularly on street tires. Now, if he has a bunch of previous experience, that's a different thing all together...
 

ddd4114

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I think if you're going to spend the time flushing the fluid, you might as well use DOT4. I don't know if the price of ATE fluid has changed much in the last few years, but when I used to buy it, it was only ~$13 per liter. Including shipping, you're spending ~$10 for extra security, and that's pretty good value to me. Is it absolutely necessary? No. However, if he keeps doing it, he'll save time by starting with at least half-decent DOT4, and if he doesn't, he's only out an extra $10 (ok, more like $15-20 when accounting for a spare bottle) and gets a little peace of mind.

I imagine this is much harder to do with a 4.6L, but with a completely stock 5.0L on stock pads and fluid, I got significant fade on my first track day (ever). The pedal turned to mush, but it never totally lost brakes and went right to the floor. That was on the stock all-season PZero Neros. I know you're an experienced instructor and can better gauge newer drivers than me, but in my opinion, why take the risk if you're already going to do the work?
 

noldevin

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I think DOT4 is going to be especially important for a track noob since they will be less likely to detect a brake problem right away and also more likely to cause a heat issue by braking longer/slower.
 

Chriss_302

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DOT4 has a higher boiling point than DOT3, making the fluid less likely to boil.
If it boils you'll start to feel that mushy pedal feel, or even going all the way in. In that case you'll need a complete flush.

IMHO, noob or not IF the fluid boils you'll need a complete flush, why not pay extra $$ for a bottle and have it save your components?
Just my .02.
 
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SoundGuyDave

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All good points, guys.

Counter-argument: Since cost IS a huge barrier to entry for our sport, if you're only sticking your toe in the water, spend the money where it is hugely important: pads. I've had many students blow through an entire set of stock pads in a single day, but I've only had one where the fluid took him out of the running, and that was because it was aged-out. Yes, the pedal will get "soft" if you put enough heat into it. Yes, DOT4 has a higher boiling point (595* vs 375*). However, if you plan on doing a prophylactic bleed at lunch and the end of the day, you should be fine on fresh DOT3 for HPDE-1 pace. NOTE: I advocate the safety-bleed regardless of fluid type...

Cost was mentioned, and I think that deserves a closer look. Motul RBF600 runs $18 per half-liter. Prestone DOT3 runs $5 per liter. It takes 1.5 liters to properly flush the brakes, with .5 left over for subsequent bleeding. That's 4 bottles of Motul for $72, or bottles of Prestone for $10. $62 difference. Assuming you have DOT 3 in the car right now, to PROPERLY convert over to the DOT 4, you need to have a dealership tool to cycle the ABS hydraulics during the flush, and they charge (at least around here) $129 for the brake flush. Total cost for DOT 4: $200. Total cost for DOT 3: $10. The defense rests.

Now, if you KNOW that you're going to turn into a track-addict, then yes, by all means start off on DOT 4, and add brake ducts NOW. You will save on pad life, and the brakes will be essentially bulletproof. If you're "not sure" about this whole taking-corners-at-ludicrous-speed thing, then save the two Benjamins and apply that towards the pads, where it really counts.
 

Chriss_302

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Great info, Dave, and well stated on the HPDE-1 -- dot 3.

On another note, i would really invest on some brake ducts for any entry level HPDE driver.
 

kerrynzl

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OK so it's agreed on the Brake fluid [preventative maintenance in my opinion]

1:The next mod should be a competition wheel alignment [figure out how to get at least 3 degrees+ negative camber]
This should increase cornering speeds and put less emphasis on the brakes [for a noob]

2:After that a set of race pads.[you should be getting more skilled by now] These can be swapped in at the track.
I've had good results from "Performance Friction Carbon Metallic 90 compound" pads in OEM various cars. They love the heat, but come up to temp relatively quick.

3:While you're at it, buy a 2nd set of wheels and try and get a set of "scuffs" from a road racer.

Swap over the wheels and pads at the same time.
The pads and wheels can be swapped out to drive home.

4: Springs , You will get great handling gains from choosing the correct stiffness springs .If you fuck this up ,it will be detrimental to handling.
You DON'T need fancy competition springs and platforms, just the correct stiffness.

5: Seat and 5-6 point harness

Hopefully after this you will be satisfied with your efforts and results

Otherwise you'll be like the rest of us .......... standing on the edge of the cliff staring down into the abyss of broken relationships, near poverty, sleepless nights, unemployment, etc etc [that all makes perfect sense to us racers]
 

ddd4114

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Your #2 should be #1. Your #1 should be #5, and your #3 should be your #29. #7-25 should be driver mods.

For starting out, as Dave mentioned, all you need is pads and fluid. After that, I agree that brake ducts are high on the list since they pay for themselves. After that, camber plates will also pay for themselves. There are a few other items that will also eventually save you money - like catch cans. Hardcore racing tires should be almost the last thing you do - just before aero mods.
 

kerrynzl

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Your #2 should be #1. Your #1 should be #5, and your #3 should be your #29. #7-25 should be driver mods.

For starting out, as Dave mentioned, all you need is pads and fluid. After that, I agree that brake ducts are high on the list since they pay for themselves. After that, camber plates will also pay for themselves. There are a few other items that will also eventually save you money - like catch cans. Hardcore racing tires should be almost the last thing you do - just before aero mods.

Not correct!

I've driven a few "production class" cars where the brakes were better than the handling and/or grip.
Usually they are a soggy POS that cannot go fast enough to exploit the limits of braking.
Once the car is handling reasonably [as in higher cornering speeds] the higher corner exit speed become higher terminal speeds. Then Better brakes [and HP] are needed.

Any car can lock the wheels up on the first corner. It is the tyres that stop the car.

We in NZ have a very successful claimer class [feeder class] that pretty much limits the mods to what I described.
Called 2K cup [ $2000 and 2000cc ]

see for yourself http://2kcup.com/

These cars don't embarrass themselves out there.

Also note I have sometimes put stock pads back into my old vintage race car for short sprint races . Race pads sometimes need a couple of laps to get up to temp.
With stock pads I can out brake others on the first corner then "mirror drive" them the rest of the race.


If you spent $200K on a race car, you only end up racing others that have spent the same amount.
 

ddd4114

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Considering the title of this thread, I don't think the OP is asking about getting into racing 2kcup or vintage cars.

When you're just starting out and not looking to jump immediately into W2W racing, you should avoid using race tires because everything happens faster and it's harder to learn how to drive on the limit. You're right that any car can lock up its wheels on the first corner, but later if tires fade, it's usually progressive and you just drive a little slower. If brakes fade with a newer driver who hasn't experienced the warning signs, they could end up in the grass (or worse).
 

SoundGuyDave

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I have to agree with ddd....

FOR AN "HPDE-0" or HPDE-1 driver: The stock S197 GT brakes (13" non-Brembo) are marginal with a full-weight car and any sort of pace at all. I've had students run through an entire set of pads before a weekend was up (6-7 20 minute sessions out of 8), and limping home on the backing plates, or pinching off a line to a caliper that spit the pistons out is NOT the way to bring them back to the track!

Kerry, I don't know what the "plan" is for the NZ-based groups, but here stateside, the general pedagody for a novice-level group is to focus on safety, line, and just getting used to the environment. Towards the end of the weekend, we're introducing braking/steering/throttle techniques, and giving the students the knowledge they need to continue in driver development. We're not focused on platform development or advanced skill sets at all.

For those novice level drivers, I STRONGLY prefer having street tires on the car, for a wide variety of reasons! Audible feedback is the first reason. I teach them to listen to the tires, and combine that with the "seat-of-the-pants" feedback they get from the chassis to begin to "feel" what the car is doing. Street tires also have a VERY wide envelope of performance, and there is usually a LOT of warning before they finally just completely lose grip. Race tires, on the other hand, are dead silent, and have a very narrow envelope before breakaway, which for a novice can be quite difficult to handle. Finally, the street tires do have a lower overall speed, which affords more time per lap for instruction, and lowers the "cost" of failure dramatically.

MOST novice drivers on track are hugely inconsistent. If the target is to use, say, 95% of the available grip at all times when cornering, they will typically fluctuate between 80-120%. Usually, it's "too fast in the slow corners, and too slow in the fast corners." Or, they try to be heroes on the corner entry, spend the bulk of the mid-corner phase trying to gather up the sliding, twitching hot mess, then putter out of the corner with the need for underwear replacement.

If you're on race tires, with (for example) a 10% margin-of-error, you feel like a hero at all times even when using 70% of what is possible, until you spike a control input, and then suddenly "they just lose grip, with no warning," and off you go, into the Aarmco. At least with street tires, which start talking at around 75-80%, you start to hear the feedback as you approach the limit. Plenty of warning. Then, we can talk about associating the feedback you get (brake pedal, wheel, seat) with what the tires are telling the driver. Once they begin to mentally link that little shudder in the wheel with the tires being at the edge of lockup or edge of traction, THEN they can consider stepping up to race tires. For experienced drivers, like Kerry or myself, sensing the feedback from race rubber is near-instinctive. For a newbie? It's a black art. Witchcraft.

As far as the rest of the list goes:

1) Competition alignment: I run 2.7* neg camber and 1/8" toe-out. On the street, that'll eat the tires alive, and the car is "interesting" to drive on a crowned surface. To get that much negative camber, you'll need camber plates, and possibly a cut strut tower. Hardly things you'd want for a first-timer.

2) Race pads: IMO, thing number one. You learn nothing if you're parked in the paddock with no pads left. Getting to temp in a full-weight car is NOT hard, and HPDE doesn't have the charge into T1 that you do in a race group.

3) spare wheels and scrubs: Last thing to do before you start in a competition environment (Time Trial or W2W).

4) Springs: Chassis development item, along with the alignment, and IMO the most critical part: dampers. Proper dampers go a LONG way towards "managing" the ills of the chassis. Given a choice between a set of springs and bars, OR a set of Sachs or Moton dampers, I'll take the dampers every time.

5) Seat/harnesses. Also chassis development, albeit quite a bit earlier than the rest of the list.

Remember that we're talking about somebody who has potentially NEVER put a wheel on a track before. They still have highway following intervals ingrained, tend to drive with one hand at 12:00 and the other on the shifter, and have no concept of taking a corner "outside-inside-outside." They have no frame of reference when it comes to braking points (never mind consistent braking pressures), and tend to treat the gas pedal like an on/off switch. These are the budding racers of the next generation, and if they get the sense that to even START doing this requires a $10K investment and potentially irrevocable changes to their brand new car, we won't get them to the track in the first place. These are the drivers that we're trying to instill the mental aspects of performance driving (situational awareness), as well as teaching them the physical skills (control input techniques, problem recovery).

I stand by my recommendations for first-timers.

Now, for somebody with a couple of weekends under their belt, things change, and rapidly. They understand why the brakes are so important, and actually know that you can buy race-dedicated compounds from PFC, Hawk, Carbotech, and others. They get why ducts are so important, and have already planned on them. They "get" the concept of the line, and are starting to become more consistent. They understand why an early turn-in is the worst possible sin. THESE are the guys where starting a bit of chassis development makes sense. They know they're coming back to the track, and a $300 set of camber/caster plates makes sense to protect the outside edges of the tires, if for no other reason. They're at the point where they can consistently push the chassis hard enough that they are starting to identify the weak points that "need" correction, and can do so intelligently, rather than throwing a parts-list from a shiny catalog at the car. These are the folks that are already hooked, and just need guidance on the how/why for modifying their chassis.

Then there's the final 10%. Knuckleheads like us who have taken a perfectly good street car and absolutely destroyed the quality of ride, all in the pursuit of that one golden lap (TT) or being that little bit faster than the other guy (W2W), and have gone broke and gotten divorced in the process!

You might be a racer if:
1) You have a jungle-gym installed on the inside of the car.
2) You late-apex your driveway.
3) You heel/toe going into your garage.
4) The only wear on the brake pedal pad is on the right-side edge.
5) You throttle-steer on highway ramps, and usually at double to posted advisory speed limit.
6) You have to refrain from bump-drafting the guy ahead of you on the highway.

COST AS BARRIER TO ENTRY: The entire concept of HPDE is to take your existing street car an experience the joys of running around in circles, turning fossil fuels into heat and noise. There is already a fairly significant cost right up front for the entry fee ($400?), not to mention the general wear-and-tear on the car. If "we" pile a laundry-list of other things needed just to TRY OUT this whole scene, we'll decimate the incoming ranks. Look at Kerry's list for a moment: Alignment: $100 before the event, $100 after (back to street settings), $300 in caster plates, $200 installation labor: $700. Race pads: $250-300. Necessary, IMO. Wheels/scrubs: $800 for cheapie wheels, $400 for scrubs, $120 for mount/balance: $1320. Springs: $400 (installation and alignment covered above). Seat/harness: $1000 seat, $300 harnesses, $250 brackets and seat-mount, $200 harness bar (should be a full roll bar) $300 labor. $2050. This list totals $4470! If every potential newbie to the sport is faced with dropping $5K just to give it a try, we're going to have NO enrollment, and the sport will die. That's just simple economics. NONE of the above (except the brake pads) are actually necessary to go out and enjoy the car at an 80% pace. IF the bug bites, and you decide that yes, this is my new avocation, then absolutely start buying parts, and learning to work on your own car. Until then? Bollocks. Get in it and drive.

Racer tip for warming up the brakes and tires: Slow, gentle weaving side-to-side is great for cleaning clag off the tires, but does NOTHING to put heat into them. For that you need to slide them, and that takes aggressive, sharp control inputs. Yank the wheel hard over and goose the throttle to induce understeer to slide the fronts. Yank it the other way and stab the brakes to induce oversteer to slide the rears. On a race group sighting lap, that's what I do for the first half-lap. The rest of the lap I spend accelerating aggressively then slamming on the brakes to get some heat in the pads. Once we pull into formation (2-wide for the final 2-3 corners), I'll drag the brakes all the way to the green flag, to get heat into the hubs and wheels. Gets the tires up to temp quicker, and makes sure the pads have plenty for the turn-one scramble. Also remember that on a race start, you're not moving anywhere NEAR as quickly as "race pace" into the first corner, so you CAN push your braking point a lot closer to the corner. A lot of drivers forget that, having a programmed braking point, and you can take advantage of that error if you stay heads-up.

For the HPDE crowd: The above tricks are NOT applicable to HPDE!! If you run race brakes, then yes, the accel/brake thing helps, but unless you're on race rubber, forget about the weaving/sliding thing. Even if you ARE on race rubber, forget about it, since you SHOULD be warming the car up incrementally with pace. There is no premium on the turn-one/lap-one thing, and you have no excuse to "charge into" a corner until you've got the car (and your brain!) nicely warmed up.
 

El_Tortuga

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MOST novice drivers on track are hugely inconsistent. If the target is to use, say, 95% of the available grip at all times when cornering, they will typically fluctuate between 80-120%. Usually, it's "too fast in the slow corners, and too slow in the fast corners." Or, they try to be heroes on the corner entry, spend the bulk of the mid-corner phase trying to gather up the sliding, twitching hot mess, then putter out of the corner with the need for underwear replacement.

So much this.
 

kerrynzl

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Considering the title of this thread, I don't think the OP is asking about getting into racing 2kcup or vintage cars.

When you're just starting out and not looking to jump immediately into W2W racing, you should avoid using race tires because everything happens faster and it's harder to learn how to drive on the limit. You're right that any car can lock up its wheels on the first corner, but later if tires fade, it's usually progressive and you just drive a little slower. If brakes fade with a newer driver who hasn't experienced the warning signs, they could end up in the grass (or worse).

Please don't try to twist words to alter the meaning?

The 2k cup I mentioned was just an example of a cheap FEEDER class.
The very same mods can be applied to a Mustang.


Over the years I have seen racing at a national level where they used showroom stock cars for 500 mile endurance racing.

When the rules stated showroom stock, they could only make adjustments.
even the brakes were stock.

So an absolute stock car will be OK if the competition is exactly the same.
So the OP could leave his car alone if he really desired.

Road racing isn't about stomping the gas coming out of the corners, it is about "feel" or "feedback" from the tyres.

It is a waste of time trying to develop driver technique if the front tyres are trying to "peel of the rims' well before the limit of adhesion.
That is why I recommend a competition wheel alignment as No 1.

I recommended race pads as No2 [go back and read it] and said "while you are at it" get the wheels as No3

I've seen a lot of racers drive to the track, jack their cars up and swap pads and tyres and go racing.
Later in the day swap them back and drive home.

Pads and Tyres are a simple mod that can be undone later.

Usually scuffs will go for about $50-$70 each. [it would be the cheapest gain the OP will ever get]


Back to the braking subject,
One of the most difficult things for a novice to learn is how to brake correctly
The next most difficult is how to get OFF the brakes correctly [trail braking, or diamond apexing etc]
With a good set of tyres you can usually save the car if a mistake is made while learning.[you usually end up off the racing line coming out wide and not in the fence]
If it was the other way round, where the "Tyres go off" before the brakes do.......it can be dangerous.

It is all about the driver getting feedback through his fingertips and braking foot.
 

ddd4114

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Dave said what I'm thinking much better and more thoroughly than I can type it out. I won't even attempt to elaborate on anything because I will just be redundant.

Kerry, maybe one of us is misunderstanding the other, but I'm not trying to twist your words, and I don't think I did.

As Dave said, I really would recommend against 3 deg of camber for a complete newbie. For a dedicated track car, it's essential to get about that much (depending the car/setup), but for a casual HPDE participant, I would only shoot for 1.5-2 deg with basic camber plates - but only after you're sure that you want to continue taking your car to the track. Like I said with tires (also echoed by Dave), you are much better off starting on street tires and then working up to race tires when you're comfortable driving on the limit. I completely forgot about the audible feedback Dave mentioned because I've been driving on Hoosiers for so long, but I definitely missed it at first. Hoosiers also provide a lot less tactile feedback than a good summer tire or entry-level R-comp, so you're almost completely relying on seat-of-the-pants feeling and memory/repetition to evaluate grip. If you don't have those judgements operating almost autonomously, as most new drivers don't, then you're going to hate race tires after you get over the "holy crap this grip is insane" first impression. I have limited experience with non-DOT race tires, but I imagine they aren't much better in a similar comparison. I spent ~2 years in HPDE groups when I stared driving, and I saw quite a lot of people spin on the 1st lap because they were using race tires and didn't have the experience to drive on them.

Honestly, your advice is pretty reasonable if directed toward somebody with a decent amount of experience on-track. You list will quickly, cheaply, and significantly increase the performance of the car for sure. I would most certainly add dampers and a few "reliability" items to the list, but that's just nit-picking. However, as I said, please consider the title of this thread. If you, Dave, or I were to prep a new car, we would all most certainly do everything on your list as soon as our budgets allow. That doesn't mean it also applies to new drivers - unless they really don't care about developing their abilities as a driver and just want to either go fast or augment their ego.
 

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