Old school pushrod in an 05 mustang...

[Whiskey11]

Good luck with the shake down and stay safe and get lots of video!

 

[MadMustang]

Hunter, would you have any pictures of the motor mounts that you used or fabbed? Now that we are moving my 351w back 2", the guy's at the shop are having a little trouble. I know the 302 is a little smaller, but maybe it will give them an idea.
thank you, Mark

 

[Red06GT]

Any updates from the VIR shakedown? Video?

 

[hunterwiley]

Any updates from the VIR shakedown? Video?

Not much to share... Took the car out for the first session, on the 3rd lap (and really the first lap of really starting to push the car some) the cockpit filled with smoke and I shut it down. This was exiting the lower esses. One of the welds on the oil pan failed and I was blowing oil pretty heavy out the side of the pan. Got towed in, cleaned the mess up (had to remove the splitter and the steering rack), and tried to coat the crack w/ JB weld. Fired the car the next morning, no leaks, so took it back out. It lasted two laps and we got a black flag when a car flipped exiting the lower esses. Wehn i brought it in the pan had started leaking again so that ended the weekend. Car is sitting in the garage, I haven't felt like tearing it down to get the pan fixed.

On a better note, the car did feel pretty good while it lasted. And a buddy had his recently rebuilt 74' Datsun 260z ex-ITS car that he let me take out for the last session of the second day. Gotta say, that was probably the most fun I've had in a car in some time. Not alot of power, but it handled so much better than the mustangs I'm used to driving....

 

[cf99gt]

Hi Ed. Im trying to get a hold of you (pm's not getting sent here(?) and thought you were on the SE Ai/cmc regional email list, but couldent find you there either.
This is Chris F. We did comp school together at nccar (i was in a silver '03 mustang). Anyway, could you please contact me when you get some time.
Thanks bro- cf99gt at yahoo dot con

 

[hunterwiley]

On the rollers at PAS..

Quick update... Took the car to Performance Autosport in Richmond for it's dyno certification. We race in two weeks at VIR, and I was really curious what the boss block 342ci stroker would do. Last year in the fox the same engine made around 340rwhp and 360rwtq, using BBK long tube headers and an open exhaust. I also used a restrictor plate to get the power down to those levels.
To fit the engine in the 05 chassis, I ended up using much smaller tri-y headers. These are 1.5" short primary tube headers, into 1.75" secondary tubes, then into 2.5" collectors. From there its 2.5" into an X-pipe, then open bullet mufflers to dump in front of the rear axle....
I figured these smaller headers would really choke the top end power some, but was hoping torque would stay up there. That was a big reason for the engine swap in the first place...
A bit disappointed after the dyno pulls.... The engine made more power than I needed, but less torque. The final numbers, using a restrictor plate with 1.3" venturi, was 360 rwhp and 350 rwtq. Using our AI rules, that'll mean I have to race at 3420lbs minimum weight. As the car sits right now, that's some 70lbs I'll have to add in weight. Since I really don't want to do that, I'm headed back to PAS this coming weekend with smaller restrictors and sporting 3.73 rear gears instead of the 3.55's that were in the car. I'm hoping to get my power down to 350 and not affect the torque much. If the torque drops as well I'll probably run heavier and keep the power. On a big track like VIR the extra HP will probably be more favorable than the extra weight...

Dyno session - initial pulls the AF was fat, you can hear the engine stumble some in mid pull. Pulls were to 6300 as the small solid roller cam is all done at 6k. Torque was tabletop flat from 2500 on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvTlebirsJA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

That's too bad, but not surprising on the loss of torque with the shorter, smaller primary tri-Y headers.

I've always had better low end torque numbers with full length, larger primary headers. It worked when we raced Fox/302 Mustangs back in the 1990s and it works again with the 5.0L Coyote motor (which we use with ARH 1-7/8" long tubes).

If you want loads of bottom end torque/power, go big on the header primary size and length. The biggest gains we saw when we went from stock headers to these 1-7/8" full lengths on our Coyote was... well, everywhere, but there was a big hump a the bottom. See below, for the stock dyno on our 2013 GT vs the headers+cold air dyno on our 2011 GT (ignore the 3rd power curve in blue at the bottom, our 2013 BRZ).

You see a lot of internet wisdom that says the opposite, "big headers kill torque", and I used to argue with "shorty header experts" back in the day, but the dyno doesn't lie. Big headers make torque (of course, to a point).

Can you get bigger, full length headers for this motor?

 

[hunterwiley]

Terry, I was just reviewing your thread last night about the headers, so timely post on your part. So far I haven't found any long tube headers that will work. The tri-y's were the 3rd pair I'd tried when putting the engine in the car. The others were a smaller set of 1 5/8" long tubes, and a pair of Doug Thorley mid-length headers. All hit the firewall. I may try a pair of FRPP 1.75" shorty headers but that'll mean changing up the exhaust considerably. A fellow racer is putting a pair on a 347 so I'll see how his car dyno's then go from there. Don't know why someone doesn't make a set of Tri-y's with larger tubes.... I don't need a massive increase in torque, but if I could get it up around 370 I'd be pleased....



I'll post the new dyno results after Saturdays session...

Quick question - do the headers your use dump into the stock 2.5" size pipes? Or did you go with 3" exhaust on the custom build?

 

[Mike K]

I'm assuming the only reason your having issues with headers is because you set the engine back so far?

 

[zquez]

Have you thought about getting some custom headers made?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Quick question - do the headers your use dump into the stock 2.5" size pipes? Or did you go with 3" exhaust on the custom build?

The ARH long tubes + X-pipe we purchased were made to go into the stock S197 rear-exhaust section, which we did for a while. Car was SUPER quiet, very stealthy, still plenty powerful, and I recommend this for street cars or people sensitive to loud cars...

But... yea, we made a custom 3" rear exhaust section to match up with the X-pipe sizes, all stainless, with 409SS Flowmaster Series 44 mufflers. Dropped a lot more weight, made a bit more power, and the sound was SO much better.

Some of this was weight, most of it was that itch to remove stock stuff "just to see what would happen"

All of this is documented in our build thread... remember, I only started posting the entries here 1.5 years into the project. To go all the way back read it here or here.

Of course for a pure race car we have an even lighter exhaust set-up that we built on a Boss 302-S, above. This car doesn't have full length headers (yet) but the layout could stay the same. Very light, meets sound regs, added "too much" power (had to make a smaller restrictor).

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I tend to agreed with Terry regarding the primary diameter. Given that power, I don't know that 1-7/8" is right, but certainly 1.5" seems small. A 1-5/8" or 1-3/4" I think would still allow it to breathe down low and get the torque back up. I've never built to a restrictor / power to weight class, but it certainly seems like limiting what goes into the motor (via fuel, restrictors, etc) would be the way to get the number you want, versus limiting what can leave the motor.

 

[hunterwiley]

I agree with all the posts above... I need bigger headers. And yep, the problem with "out of the box" headers is the engine is set right against the firewall. Depending on the dyno session tomorrow, I may be looking for a new set of headers soon. And I may have to go custom, but cringe at the thought of how pricey those may be. Wondering if I can haul the car to Kooks in NC and see if they have some that'll fit. (??)
Also considering a pair of Dougs 1.75" mid-length with 3" collectors... These just might fit due to the drop before they turn rearward... They'd have to flow better than the ones on the car now...

 

[zquez]

I agree with all the posts above... I need bigger headers. And yep, the problem with "out of the box" headers is the engine is set right against the firewall. Depending on the dyno session tomorrow, I may be looking for a new set of headers soon. And I may have to go custom, but cringe at the thought of how pricey those may be. Wondering if I can haul the car to Kooks in NC and see if they have some that'll fit. (??)
Also considering a pair of Dougs 1.75" mid-length with 3" collectors... These just might fit due to the drop before they turn rearward... They'd have to flow better than the ones on the car now...

I imagine kooks would be the one to go to. But given that they tend to be the most expensive off the shelf, i too cringe to know what some customs would cost.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[hunterwiley]

Got the car dyno'ed this morning, and things are a bit better. With a 1.20" restrictor plate under the carb, swapping the rear gears from 3.55 to 3.73, and leaning out the jets a bit, the dyno said 351rwhp and 359rwtq. A bit better than before, at least more in line with what I wanted. This means I can race at a minimum weight of 3343lbs - with me in the car and no fuel she weighs 3341, without race gear. If the engine is running when I come off track then I should be clear on the weight. At 3343 I could have 370 ft-lbs of rear wheel torque, instead of the 359 I have now. I don't think I'll be spending alot of money chasing that other 11ft-lbs any time soon...

Can't wait to get it on track next weekend...

 

[Mike K]

Good deal. Post more pics and vids when you can please.

 

[knownukes]

Got the car dyno'ed this morning, and things are a bit better. With a 1.20" restrictor plate under the carb, swapping the rear gears from 3.55 to 3.73, and leaning out the jets a bit, the dyno said 351rwhp and 359rwtq. A bit better than before, at least more in line with what I wanted. This means I can race at a minimum weight of 3343lbs - with me in the car and no fuel she weighs 3341, without race gear. If the engine is running when I come off track then I should be clear on the weight. At 3343 I could have 370 ft-lbs of rear wheel torque, instead of the 359 I have now. I don't think I'll be spending alot of money chasing that other 11ft-lbs any time soon...

Can't wait to get it on track next weekend...

Ed, Glad you got better and close to where you wanted to be. Good luck next weekend. I hope the car runs well for you so you can start sorting it out.

Bill

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Nice numbers - don't mess with it.

For what its worth, custom full length header fabrication is a costly game, unless you have a serious hook-up with a fabricator, of the skills to do it yourself. I've made one set and it took me like 40 hours - on my $2011 GRM Challenge E30 LSx - and it was a total nightmare.

The going rate around here for custom-built, one-off, quality, mandrel bent, stainless full lengths for a V8 is around $3-4K. The materials are one part but its the HOURS that kills ya.

Vorshlag has since made some custom headers, either one-offs or pre-production prototypes for our BMW LS1 swap kits, and it SUCKS. And we even "cheat" and use a click-together-plastic "Lego" header template kit that lets us try a lot of tubing iterations before we start cutting steel.

These pictures are of the prototyping for our BMW E46 LS1 swap kit headers. Total pain in the ass. I'm showing these pictures to warn you how much work this is... if you can make the power numbers and are only 11 ft-lbs short of the torque... stick with what ya got!

Good luck,