Race Belt Mounting

[AutoXRacer]

So ideally with stock seats, this is the preferred method of harnessing:

Profi F-models
The anti-submarining strap routing over the upper thighs and attachment to the shoulder belt latches with the buckle in between, does not provide a direct load path from the shoulder belts down to the anti-submarining strap anchor points. The indirect routing requires a type of preloading of the anti-submarining straps during a frontal impact. This is achieved by sitting on the anti-submarining straps, routing them rearwards and attaching them in the region near or on the lap belt anchorages.

This anti-sub strap design requires sitting on the straps or having a thin seat panel allowing the straps running rearwards right underneath the driver’s buttock.

This is the method suggested to me by Cool Tech where you sit on the anti-sub belts.

So the question now is, which 6 point belts do you guys run/recommend?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

So ideally with stock seats, this is the preferred method of harnessing:
This is the method suggested to me by Cool Tech where you sit on the anti-sub belts.

So the question now is, which 6 point belts do you guys run/recommend?

Aahhh, that explains the confusion!

I just spoke with Cool Tech and the way they setup 5 point harness is that the lap belts and anti-sub belt are both attached at the same point (low on the floor behind the seat). Then you lay the anti-sub belt on the seat making a V and you sit on it, then clip in the anti-sub. So basically you are wearing straps around your inner thighs.

Wonder how this works/feels.

Obviously, that won't work for a 5-point...

As for harnesses, I use (and absolutely LOVE) the Schroth "Enduro" harness. VERY smoothly adjusting hardware, BIG grab-loops (Yellow for ease of locating), reversible/configurable pull-up and/or pull down configuration. NOT cheap!

 

[AutoXRacer]

Are you using the Schroth "Enduro" harness with stock seats or a race seat?

Holy crap!!! $580 for one!!???

 

[modernbeat]

Are you using the Schroth "Enduro" harness with stock seats or a race seat?

Holy crap!!! $580 for one!!???

Yes, they are expensive. But the better webbing that adjusts easier, better adjusters, having the waist adjusters ON the latch, and the other extras make them worth it. If you ever go to a shop that has them in stock, or a trade show, and have the chance to handle the low end and high end harnesses at the same time you will see where the extra cost goes, and make a judgement on whether the additional extras are worth the cost.

For me in the rally car, yes. For the autocross car, no.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Yes, they are expensive. But the better webbing that adjusts easier, better adjusters, having the waist adjusters ON the latch, and the other extras make them worth it. If you ever go to a shop that has them in stock, or a trade show, and have the chance to handle the low end and high end harnesses at the same time you will see where the extra cost goes, and make a judgement on whether the additional extras are worth the cost.

For me in the rally car, yes. For the autocross car, no.

Any suggestions for a weekend track car thats only driven by one driver?
I would need two harnesses; driver and passenger.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Are you using the Schroth "Enduro" harness with stock seats or a race seat?

Holy crap!!! $580 for one!!???

Competition seat: Sparco Circuit halo.

Yes, they are insanely expensive. However, for what I do (endurance racing), they are a fantastic tool. Because they are so easy to adjust (I'm set up with pull-down shoulder and pull-up lap belts) both in terms of releasing and tightening, I can save 15-20 seconds on each driver change, plus make sure that my co-drivers (who are all also good friends) are safe, because the belts are tightened properly even in the mad scramble that is a pit stop. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen cars screaming out of a pit box with the driver still yanking on harnesses to tighten them. I don't want ANY of "my guys" having to do that. We can swap drivers and get them belted in properly faster than we can dump 5 gallons of fuel, so it looks like it's a working system.

As Jason commented, yes, there is a difference between the lower-end and higher-end belt sets, and it is immediately appreciable when you compare them side-by-side. All that said, and assuming proper installation and proper use, the Enduro set won't keep you any safer than a basic 6-point set. For HPDE use, particularly if it's a one-driver car with no time pressures to get the belts on and tightened, there's really no point in spending the extra money. FWIW, in the CMC car, we use a basic G-Force FIA-certed 6-point, since there's no time pressures to deal with when getting belted in.

 

[jayel579]

No cup holder Dave?

Holy crap!!! $580 for one!!???

It's you bud in the end, what price would you put on your own life? What we do on the track is dangerous, no other way to look at it. It does not matter what level driver you are. Whether you go 100 mph on the weekend or 100 mph every day on the track, it is still going 100 mph and wrecks happen fast. This isn't a cheap hobby to have.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

No cup holder Dave?

Of course!! I've got ALL the options! (Except heat, air conditioning, radio, carpet, headliner....)

It's you bud in the end, what price would you put on your own life? What we do on the track is dangerous, no other way to look at it. It does not matter what level driver you are. Whether you go 100 mph on the weekend or 100 mph every day on the track, it is still going 100 mph and wrecks happen fast. This isn't a cheap hobby to have.

Agreed, 99%. In the case of harnesses, like we're discussing, there is no functional difference between a $149 SFI-tagged 6-point camlok harness set and the $580 Enduro belt set. If it's properly mounted, and used properly (buckle position, belt tensioning), both will do an equally good job of saving your ass. What the extra money buys you is faster and easier adjustment, for those situations where seconds count. It's not like comparing an SFI 3.2A/5 and 3.2A/15 fire suit, or an M- and SA- helmet. There are measurable differences there.

Is the Enduro set a "better" harness? Yes. Is it "safer?" No. Is it "worth" the extra money? Maybe. Or, maybe not. I would certainly never tell somebody NOT to spend the extra money, but I have (on many occasions, this being one) suggested that the same money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Osiris]

Cole Trickle.... awesome

 

[2008 V6]

Of course!! I've got ALL the options! (Except heat, air conditioning, radio, carpet, headliner....)


Dave - If you don't mind - What is your weight with driver & fuel?
Also did you remove the dash reenforcements?

Thanks in advance - Nice work by the way -

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Of course!! I've got ALL the options! (Except heat, air conditioning, radio, carpet, headliner....)


Dave - If you don't mind - What is your weight with driver & fuel?
Also did you remove the dash reenforcements?

Thanks in advance - Nice work by the way -

Thanks! It was kind of a fun build, to be honest!

Minimum competition weight, with driver, and short fuel (2-3 gallons) is 3308lbs, but I'm typically in the 3350-3400lb range, one you load up the drink bottle, cool-suit cooler, and stuff the fuel tank; at least at the START of the race!

Yes, I did delete the factory dash crossbar, in favor of a 1.75", 0.125-wall tube spanning between the downtubes at the front of the cage. If you're thinking weight reduction, DON'T. The whole thing, with all the dash-mount brackets and everytihing was stupidly light, like maybe 7lbs?

My dash attaches at the firewall, and at two points on each side, to fabricated brackets. The rest is just air. Did have to relocate the SJB to the firewall to make room in the kick-panel for the down-tubes and intrusion bars. I was originally going to just fabricate an aluminum dash pod, but after pulling out the factory stuff, and seeing how light it was, decided to just roll with it. It looks more "finished" that way, and I'm really not paying much of a weight penalty at all.

Really, the chassis is fairly easy to get down to weight, I did VERY little cutting and chopping of extraneous metal, and the cage is WAY above CCR bare minimums. In addition to the basic cage, I added gusset bars between the halo and main hoop, between the halo and the windshield bar, a diagonal in the rear back-stays, an extra sill-bar for the door bars, firewall intrusion bars, plus full-length gusseting along the A- and B-pillars. I probably added 25-30lbs of extra cage steel to the build, but if I had to do it all over again, I would go the same route. EVERYBODY that has been in the car has just commented that "It just feels....SAFE!" And safety was goal one on the build. Then lightness. There's probably another 50-75lbs that I could pull out with relative ease, but then I'd be starting to take too much of a power hit to stay in-class. I'm way under "the number" right now, but...

 

[dontlifttoshift]

6 point, stock seat, no sub slot, so where do you go with 5th and 6th point? Routing to the lap belt attachment you end up with the sub belts sitting like this
.....O I had to add the dots to keep the o where I wanted it.....please disregard dots when viewing technical drawing
/\_/ \_/\

With O being the camlock. Obviously my perfectly drawn diagram is exaggerated but any sort of "s" bend makes the sub strap useless in my mind. So what about running through the seat bottom and the backrest in a stock style reclining seat like Scroth recommends in the quote posted earlier?

Scroth Profi ASM harness. 5th and 6th belts are on a t bar.

 

[2008 V6]

Thanks Dave – Very clean installation and well thought out for driver room and safety. Driver comfort makes a huge difference in endurance racing as you well know.
Looks like you moved the seat back about 10” + too.
That 50 to 100 LBs of extra material that you don’t want to bother with – If you have the time and it doesn’t hurt the visual appeal to you, I would pull it and add it back where it’s needed.
I think you would be very surprised at what 75 + LBs does when well placed into a already balanced car.

Sorry for jacking the thread.

 

[B2B]

Anyone here using the Rallye 3 or Rallye 4 ASM harness? Where are you mounting the rear half of the harness? While the instructions says its OK to use rear seat belt mounting locations, it just looks like a steep angle going forward and up. I'll eventually get a proper 4 points rollbar, but would like to have harness now for better upper body support.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[AutoXRacer]

Anyone here using the Rallye 3 or Rallye 4 ASM harness? Where are you mounting the rear half of the harness? While the instructions says its OK to use rear seat belt mounting locations, it just looks like a steep angle going forward and up. I'll eventually get a proper 4 points rollbar, but would like to have harness now for better upper body support.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Typically people are mounting it in the upper rear shoulder belt attachment point.

 

[modernbeat]

6 point, stock seat, no sub slot, so where do you go with 5th and 6th point? Routing to the lap belt attachment you end up with the sub belts sitting like this
.....O I had to add the dots to keep the o where I wanted it.....please disregard dots when viewing technical drawing
/\_/ \_/\

With O being the camlock. Obviously my perfectly drawn diagram is exaggerated but any sort of "s" bend makes the sub strap useless in my mind. So what about running through the seat bottom and the backrest in a stock style reclining seat like Scroth recommends in the quote posted earlier?

Scroth Profi ASM harness. 5th and 6th belts are on a t bar.

While the S-bend makes the crotch belts less effective, it does not make them useless. If you are using a 6-point in an OEM seat it IS acceptable to run them under the legs, but on top of the seating surface, then down to mounting points, often using the same points as a lapbelt IF the crotch straps are long enough.

See this post by AutoXRacer at the top of this page for the diagram.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1977377&postcount=21

 

[dontlifttoshift]

So the S bend, while not ideal, is still acceptable? And better than going under my arse out the back like schroth mentions in the diagram?

thin seat panel allowing the straps running rearwards right underneath the driver’s buttock

 

[modernbeat]

So the S bend, while not ideal, is still acceptable? And better than going under my arse out the back like schroth mentions in the diagram?

In my experience, yes. I've worn crotch straps that way, and when you put one on and try to run it out the back it becomes obvious that it is not "right".

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Jason, thanks for the insight.

 

[B2B]

Typically people are mounting it in the upper rear shoulder belt attachment point.

I'm assuming you are using Rallye 3 harness? Thanks, I'll check into that.

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