Running like crap and throwing codes

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I've been throwing these two codes for a while.. Car runs like shit in lower rpms and also will throw and random misfire code. I done some research and was also told it was the alternator. So I replaced the alternator and it ran great for a few hours of drive time with no codes in sight. Then it started again.. Same codes, same misfire, same misfire under load and all. What's next? (I've already replaced the crank sensor as well)


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Yes battery is fine. They said alternator was bad so I changed it. I've been told a few times it's something with the timing chain. Tensioner/guide or possibly something wrong with phaser limited


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Alternator
phaser ,
Guide
Tensioner
You just don't know these days.



Well I eliminated one of those problems. So the rest the front cover will have to come off anyway. Should be down a week or so to order whatever it is or replace with some spare guides I have (fingers crossed)


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Dino Dino Bambino

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I've been throwing these two codes for a while.. Car runs like shit in lower rpms and also will throw and random misfire code. I done some research and was also told it was the alternator. So I replaced the alternator and it ran great for a few hours of drive time with no codes in sight. Then it started again.. Same codes, same misfire, same misfire under load and all. What's next?

Those are the symptoms of a bad VCT solenoid and, in your case, it's the one on the passenger side. If that one is indeed bad, you'd be well-advised to replace the driver's side solenoid as well 'cause the chances are that it'll also fail soon after.
 
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Those are the symptoms of a bad VCT solenoid and, in your case, it's the one on the passenger side. If that one is indeed bad, you'd be well-advised to replace the driver's side solenoid as well 'cause the chances are that it'll also fail soon after.



Vct solenoid? Where's it located? Picture possibly?


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redfirepearlgt

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There is a rubber boot in the cam cover (valve cover for us older guys) that the VCT solenoid sticks through. See arrows on cam cover (valve cover for us older guys) below. Yes the cam covers have to come off to get to it for replacement.

ztkYm2w.jpg


The 3 valve 4.6L actually changes the physical cam position (cam timing) with relationship to the crank. While the cam is physically linked with the crank via the timing chain, the Cam can actually be rotated within the "cam gear" now known as a Cam Phaser Gear. This is done by controlling oil pressure to the cam phaser which varies the position of the spring loaded cam phaser and changes the physical timing of the cam with respect to the crank shaft per PCM control.

Hope this helps. I spent a lot of time reading the 2005 ship Ford GT Mustang shop manual I no longer have understanding the theory of this system. I am going on memory so forgive me if UI have omitted something.
 

redfirepearlgt

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BTW how long ago were the cams installed? Did the installer reuse the phaser bolts? They area one time use item. They CANNOT be reused. Second there is a wierd procedure for setting torque on the phasers. If memory serves correctly the cam phser bolt is to be tightened to 27 ft/lb. Then the 2005 Ford Mustang GT tech manual (I gave it away after I sold the car) said to mark the bolt and then tighten it another 90 degrees with respect to that mark for final completion. If this step is omitted or the phaser bolt is reused problems can and will likely arise at some point soon after the upgrade.Second if the install was not done meticulously and debris finds its way into the system it can get caught (if you are lucky) in a screen located under the solenoid where it mounts to the journal that the oil pressure is fed to the phaser from.

I lost my cam phaser's soon after a cam upgrade done by a nationally known performance center. I cannot remember the exact intermittent CEL I was getting with respect to that problem. But it was a noisy sound that made you think the car had just thrown a rod. The car would start and idle fine. It would sit there and idle for an hour fine. As soon as I would crack the throttle it would start knocking as the RPM dropped back to idle and would stay there until the car was shut off and restarted. If you have experienced this along with your CEL's you have cam phaser issues potentially as well.
 
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BTW how long ago were the cams installed? Did the installer reuse the phaser bolts? They area one time use item. They CANNOT be reused. Second there is a wierd procedure for setting torque on the phasers. If memory serves correctly the cam phser bolt is to be tightened to 27 ft/lb. Then the 2005 Ford Mustang GT tech manual (I gave it away after I sold the car) said to mark the bolt and then tighten it another 90 degrees with respect to that mark for final completion. If this step is omitted or the phaser bolt is reused problems can and will likely arise at some point soon after the upgrade.Second if the install was not done meticulously and debris finds its way into the system it can get caught (if you are lucky) in a screen located under the solenoid where it mounts to the journal that the oil pressure is fed to the phaser from.

I lost my cam phaser's soon after a cam upgrade. that is why I ask.



I've had these cams installed for a little over 3 years now with no issues. Phaser bolts were brand new from a dealer and phaser limiters were installed professionally. Sounds like it could be a multitude of things. How would I go about diagnosing the vct compared to something wrong with the timing chain? I.e. Guard/tensioner/phaser limiter


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redfirepearlgt

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I would expect you would here chain slap in the timing cover if the chain or tensioners on one or both sides were failing. Otherwise physical inspection by removal of the timing chain cover would be the next best route. It may be beneficial to take the car to a reputable tech with the diagnostic interface which I would assume could run tests on the VCT solenoids and see if inconsistency's exist that would isolate the problem to a solenoid issue. It does make sense being you are getting the two intermittent CEL's. Commanded timing position of the VCt and actual not matching could trick the PCM into thinking it is sensor related to the crank or cam sensor.

One last thing. You aren't running an oil thicker than 5w30 are you, or recently changed to a thicker viscosity before this started to occur? The VCT timing system has been known to be sensitive to not work well with thicker viscosity oils. I was asked this when my phasers failed. Made sense. I assume you are not however. But IF you are try changingthe oil back to a 5w20 synthetic of synthetic blend and see if the problem goes away since it is intermittent from your description. Sounds kooky I know, but does make sense, and if you have been for some time age may be the culprit as to why it has not had any effect until now. Good luck.
 
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I would expect you would here chain slap in the timing cover if the chain or tensioners on one or both sides were failing. Otherwise physical inspection by removal of the timing chain cover would be the next best route. It may be beneficial to take the car to a reputable tech with the diagnostic interface which I would assume could run tests on the VCT solenoids and see if inconsistency's exist that would isolate the problem to a solenoid issue. It does make sense being you are getting the two intermittent CEL's. Commanded timing position of the VCt and actual not matching could trick the PCM into thinking it is sensor related to the crank or cam sensor.

One last thing. You aren't running an oil thicker than 5w30 are you, or recently changed to a thicker viscosity before this started to occur? The VCT timing system has been known to be sensitive to not work well with thicker viscosity oils. I was asked this when my phasers failed. Made sense. I assume you are not however. But IF you are try changingthe oil back to a 5w20 synthetic of synthetic blend and see if the problem goes away since it is intermittent from your description. Sounds kooky I know, but does make sense, and if you have been for some time age may be the culprit as to why it has not had any effect until now. Good luck.



I do run 5w20 and have for a while now. Would a dealership be able to detect the vct?


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redfirepearlgt

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Most likely. There are ODBC tools out that would amaze what can be done. These aren't your hand held code readers mind you. They are high dollar devices that allow technical access that give the technician access to checking I/O on closed loop PIDS, forcing outputs on and off individually, monitoring, and so on. input feedback can be verified. Sensors can be verified, etc. My performance shop has one and it is WOW!
 
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Most likely. There are ODBC tools out that would amaze what can be done. These aren't your hand held code readers mind you. They are high dollar devices that allow technical access that give the technician access to checking I/O on closed loop PIDS, forcing outputs on and off individually, monitoring, and so on. input feedback can be verified. Sensors can be verified, etc. My performance shop has one and it is WOW!



Nice. Hopefully I can figure something out. Thanks for you help on all this.


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redfirepearlgt

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No problem. If you aren't hearing a knocking sound intermittently like mine did at least you may be able to rule out the phasers. Supposedly there is also a small screen for filtration under the solenoid that takes very little to create partial blockage and that may also be factored into the equation. Oh and one more thing. If you are not aware make sure if you do pull the cam covers yourself that you follow the torque process and pattern when putting them back on. And also reapply RTV where it needs be at the gasket mating point between the cam cover and the timing cover or you may develop oil leaks. There is a lot more to it than putting valve covers back on a 351 Windsor or Cleveland. 13 ft/lb and a crazy pattern. You can find it on line if you google it.

Sounds like DINO has had first hand experience with the symptom you are experiencing. I'd like to hear more about what his symptoms were mechanically that helped him isolate the issue along with a hand held code reader.
 
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Hopefully somebody else will chime in. I'm probably gonna tackle it this weekend to rule some things out. And no there's no knocking or rattling so that's out. So bank 1 is passenger side?


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redfirepearlgt

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Hopefully somebody else will chime in. I'm probably gonna tackle it this weekend to rule some things out. And no there's no knocking or rattling so that's out. So bank 1 is passenger side?


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Yes. Cylinders 1-4 front to rear passenger side, Cylinders 5-8 bank 2 drivers side. I would agree with Dino on replacing both however if you are able to isolate. And I doubt if a simple resistance check on the coil will tell anything. Have you ever had the cam covers off? If not, make certain no RTV gets in there when you go to clean the RTV glob around the mating point between the head and the timing cover. Do not try to reuse that. Apply fresh new. And I was told to work around the gasket you will see that sticks up slightly. every little spec of RTV should be cleaned off before applying new. I went through this when I pulled mine to install some new ones from FRPP and again when I pulled them to inspect for valve damage when I lost the cam phasers. Just don't get in a rush and cover things while cleaning that area on top and bottom joints of both banks.

Sorry if I am "preaching to the choir". Just hate to see someone have to redo something because small but critical details were omitted or assumed known.
 
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How would I go about taking it out? I have an idea of the culprit.... I have a spare valve cover and it looks like it screws out but I don't have the actual connector to tell


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redfirepearlgt

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I've never removed the solenoid. So I cannot say how it is mounted. However I have removed cam covers. Disconnect the wiring harness from the solenoid and other devices as needed to get clearance to remove the cover. The solenoid will stay with the head. The cam cover will pull off. Be careful not to nick the boot seal that surrounds the solenoid or it may leak upon installation. The boot will stay with the cam cover. You may have to finesse or orient the cam cover in such a way to get proper clearance but it will slide off after all of the cam cover bolts are loosened and all other plumbing and wiring is taken out of the way. You should even be able to find a Youtube video on installation of aftermarket cam covers for the 4.6 that will give you all of these details. If like me you are a visual person mostly with some need for theory understanding before tearing into something.
 

redfirepearlgt

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The beez-kneez on VCT solenoid replacement including removal of the camcover and inspection oft he solenoids. You can see the screen on them I was referring to as well. Oh yeah, the COP's have to come off to get the cam cover off. Mark them accordingly IMO so they go back on the same place they came from. May be overkill but that's my way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDv6hA9facc
 
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