RWHP with a Kenne Bell Stage 1

[1950StangJump$]

Okay, I know the crowd here is generally not KB friendly. But I’m curious about some HP claims that aren’t consistent with my own experience.

I have the Stage 1 on a 2008 GT with Kooks Headers and high flow cats. Stock 4” pulley — possibly 3 7/8” when I measure it manually, so not sure what it technically is supposed to be. I’m the 2nd owner of the car.

With the stock KB tune that was on the car when I bought it, it dyno’d at 450 RWHP, which I read was perfect for a stock engine. When I had it custom dyno tuned myself, it came in at 440. I have also done a remote tune with a 3rd tuner — don’t know what the HP is, but the car felt the same. All three push about 9.5 lbs of boost and are on 93 octane. Car runs nice a smooth, especially on the latest tune.

However .... KB claims 500+ at the wheels with the Stage 1, stock 4” pulley, and only 8.5 lbs boost with no other mods. And, the below article seems to back that up — it says they saw 509 WHP on just 8.5 lbs with only 91 octane and no headers.

Is KB peddling bullshit and this article buying it hook, line, and sinker, or am I leaving a bunch of HP on the table? With the 2 latest tunes, I told them to be safe and conservative because of the stock internals, but that’s a big difference ....

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...ower-upgrade-for-mustangs-yields-over-805-hp/

 

[stkjock]

Comparing dyno numbers from one dyno to any other is purely mental masterbation.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Sounds like a load of BS from KB to me. I'd say 440-450rwhp with around 9psi of boost sounds about right on stock manifolds. Add another ~20rwhp or so with LT headers.

 

[1950StangJump$]

Yea, I would expect plus or minus 20 HP depending on different dynos, different weather, etc.

But, to claim 60 HP more without the headers I have, with 1 lb less boost, and on lower octane . . . got me wondering.

I know 450 is about where I would want to be. But, I'm not opposed to adding 20 HP with a little more risk, given the car is not tracked and rarely pushed to its limits when driven. I thought about going down a notch on the pulley, and that got me researching . . . and that got me to the question at hand for this thread.

 

[Sactown]

While everyone loves to see their dyno numbers the most important things are drive ability, reliability, and tire smoking ability, if you have those 3 things all is good.

 

[Marble]

And yes...KB exaggerates their numbers. I have never seen anyone acheive their claims. I have the same blower.

 

[1950StangJump$]

And yes...KB exaggerates their numbers. I have never seen anyone acheive their claims. I have the same blower.

What numbers did you see (and with what mods)?

 

[Marble]

You really shouldn't be too concerned with numbers, especially peak numbers. I'll give you some, but keep in mind a rwhp number is not indicative of how fast your car is.

10# 490 rwhp
15.5 560 with 100 octane, 540 with pump fuel. Fastest time was 11.0 @130
19# 580 or 590 something on race fuel, this was with blower cams, big long tubes and a 4r70w. Fastest was 10.55@126.

The problem with the KB is it runs hot and the heat exchanger is pretty small. Inlet air temps will soar and even with ice water its a battle at the track.

 

[1950StangJump$]

You really shouldn't be too concerned with numbers, especially peak numbers. I'll give you some, but keep in mind a rwhp number is not indicative of how fast your car is.

10# 490 rwhp
15.5 560 with 100 octane, 540 with pump fuel. Fastest time was 11.0 @130
19# 580 or 590 something on race fuel, this was with blower cams, big long tubes and a 4r70w. Fastest was 10.55@126.

The problem with the KB is it runs hot and the heat exchanger is pretty small. Inlet air temps will soar and even with ice water its a battle at the track.

I get it . . . I only ask about numbers to get a general idea of whether I am getting the most out of my car (safely); I am not locked into a number. And, I realize there will be variances based on the individual dyno, weather conditions, etc.

That said, if you got 490 at 10# on pump gas, that's a noteworthy bump over my 440/450 at 9-9.5#. Were the cams and/or headers on it at the time? And what size pulley got you to 10?

By the way, a little while back, I upgraded my exchanger to the VMP dual fan. It took some creative plumbing to get it under the stock GT bumper, but it paid off. My temps climb considerably slower and, most notably, they drop very fast once you come off idle or once you come out of full boost. Not going to be the 'be all solution' you need at the track, but it was a great upgrade for my street car.

 

[Racer47]

There are really 2 things that makes KB numbers higher than most.

1. They always run 25 degrees timing. Most tuners will not run that much, 18-20 is typical
2. KB uses a meziere electric water pump which they claim is worth 20 hp.

So theres maybe 10-15 hp in timing, 15-20 hp in a water pump, maybe another 20 hp in a generous dyno and thats the 50 hp or so that KB seems to be high.

 

[Marble]

There are really 2 things that makes KB numbers higher than most.

1. They always run 25 degrees timing. Most tuners will not run that much, 18-20 is typical
2. KB uses a meziere electric water pump which they claim is worth 20 hp.

So theres maybe 10-15 hp in timing, 15-20 hp in a water pump, maybe another 20 hp in a generous dyno and thats the 50 hp or so that KB seems to be high.

Yeah I forgot about that info...

I do not recall how big the pulley was that got me to 10#s. Another difference is the throttle body being relatively larger.

Your best indicator of power is trap speed from the track.

And I am not familiar with the heat exchanger you mentioned. All I know is the cooler the water the better everything works. Bigger HE, fastest pump and a decently large reservoir.

 

[eighty6gt]

How does KB run 25 degrees and hot IAT's, and not blow stuff up.

I've heard it's because they suspend the stock airbox down by the front tire instead of sucking HOT ENGINE BAY AIR?

 

[1950StangJump$]

The air filter is down by the tire and away from the engine. I don't know how that marries into running more timing, though.

I will say this about the KB tunes . . . when I got the car, it had the original KB tune in it. It felt great, but a subsequent addition of a wideband gauge revealed that tune was lean at WOT. Perhaps the headers were leaning out a tune meant for stock manifolds, I don't know.

I have had a dyno tune and a remote tune since then, and they are not lean. For the dyno tune, the gauge matched perfect to the printout, so I know the gauge is accurate.

And, of course, on their website, KB claims a conservative 11:1 A/F in their tunes. So, maybe more BS ...

 

[Marble]

I'm getting ready to put my motor (new motor) back in next month. Hopefully it'll be done by this spring, doing it myself.

The other motor had an issue with the tranny pushing up against the flex plate which toasted the thrust bearing and then the rest of the motor.

Point being...I think the motor should have made substantially more power prior but with the pressure put against the rear of the motor...idk maybe I'm just dreaming.

New motor is basically the same but an aluminum block instead of iron, and acompression ratio of 9.4:1 instead of 8.8ish.

I'll have to source an 8 rib 10-12 psi pulley for the street and then use the 19 for the track.
.

 

[eighty6gt]

My favorite things about Kenne is how they fly in the face of every other tuning strategy, including OEM setups, and the big long rambling articles full of conjecture and anecdotes written on their website. People eat that up. What a way to make money.

 

[Pentalab]

My favorite things about Kenne is how they fly in the face of every other tuning strategy, including OEM setups, and the big long rambling articles full of conjecture and anecdotes written on their website. People eat that up. What a way to make money.

Justin at VMP told us how K Bell gets away with...."one tune works for any pulley size". K Bell throws a ton of fuel at it. IE: 11:1 AFR for low boost setups.... and progressively higher AFR's when boost is increased..... all with one tune.

K Bell had this drivel buried on their site about high flow cats vs no cats, and how they don't work. Fact is there is virtually no difference between high flow cats... and no cats at all. Then K bell rants on about how LT's make zero improvement..... then uses results from his..'tests'. He claims he used 3 x sizes of LT's on the 4.6 L. 1" primaries ( nobody even makes LT's with 1" primaries). Then 1.875"..then 2.0".

Well my 1 5/8" JBA titanium ceramic coated LT's, and 2.5" collector..and high flow cats sure as heck made a huge difference... blatantly obvious. That's the one mod that actually worked good. B4 the LT's were installed, the car had been previously tuned by VMP with a 94 tune. After the LT install, it was lean on the AFR, so VMP re-tweaked the tune a bit.
K Bell also rants on how the 4.6 is maxed out at 25 degs of timing. His site is actually a hoot.... but I have not been there in years. Then there was that scrap between K Bell + JDM engineering. JDM would not install or tune cars that had a K Bell 'boost a pump'.... but insisted on GT-500 dual pumps. Total gong show ensued, with JDM refusing to install any K Bell blower products.

 

[eighty6gt]

My boost a pump works great, I don't think Kenne had much to do with the design or production of said device. I peeled the sticker off. Bought it from Palanza7! Wonder what he's doing these days.

 

[Marble]

I've been running a dual BAP with twin pumps for 10 years. I have never had any fueling issues and have only had to get some larger injectors.

If I were to do it all again...I would have gotten a whipple. But my set up works good.

Minus the continued belt issues which was actually because the harmonic balancer was separating.

At 15 psi with a 6 rib belt worked really well. My only issues I ever had was actually breaking belts when racing. A power shift will do that.

 

[ChewyR]

How does KB run 25 degrees and hot IAT's, and not blow stuff up.

I've heard it's because they suspend the stock airbox down by the front tire instead of sucking HOT ENGINE BAY AIR?

Forged pistons...and they let the timing "float" relying on the knock sensors to pull it back. Do that with stock pistons and rods and the engine will not be long for this world. It's on their website somewhere. I think it might also say 100 octane. I'm sure they are picking dyno numbers from a nice cool morning, with a cold blower, and ice in the intercooler system. Probably also running an aluminum flywheel, driveshaft, and lightweight racing wheels. On a chassis dyno, especially an inertia (ie Dynojet) type, anything that reduces rotating mass translates into a higher rwhp number.

Bottom line is if the OP is getting 450 rwhp in the real world on 93 pump it is best to leave it alone until the bottom end is built.

 

[1950StangJump$]

Bottom line is if the OP is getting 450 rwhp in the real world on 93 pump it is best to leave it alone until the bottom end is built.

Fair enough.

But a couple responses here got me also wondering . . . should I decide to reduce the pulley size a notch in order to get a small bump in power . . . is a retune necessary? KB says no, but it would appear you guys think that is BS, or perhaps okay for their tune because of the unique way they tune?

When I asked my tuner about going down in pulley size, he said I "should be okay" but to watch for leaning at WOT and for make sure MAF AD counts stay below 980 (that part is new to me, not sure how it works).