SCCA TT and Hillclimb Roll Bar specs...

[JesseW.]

I want to start doing some TT's next year with the SEDIV SCCA as they do a lot of events within a reasonable driving distance. I am looking at bolt in Roll bars and like the MM bar the most, but i'm not sure it would pass tech. top of the hoop must be a Max 6" from the driver's head. in my normal driving position I am more that 6" away from where the MM bar would be from my helmet.

10.3. TRACK TRIALS (LEVEL 3)​

A minimum of a roll bar meeting the requirements of this section of the TTR shall be required in all cars.
10.3.1. B​

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ASIC DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS​

A. The basic purpose of the roll bar is to protect the driver in case the vehicle rolls over or runs into an obstacle such as a
guardrail or catch fence. This purpose should not be forgotten.
B. The top of the roll bar must be a minimum of two (2) inches above the drivers’ helmet when the driver is sitting in a normal driving position (as near the roof as possible on closed sedans) and shall not be more than six (6) inches behind the driver. In
case of two driver cars, both drivers must be within the roll bar height requirement, however only one driver must be within six inches of the roll bar.
C. The roll bar must be designed to withstand compression forces resulting from the weight of the car coming down on the roll structure, and to take fore-and-aft loads resulting from the car skidding along the ground on the roll structure.
D. The two (2) vertical members forming the sides of the hoop shall not be less than fifteen (15) inches apart (inside dimension).
It is recommended that the roll bar extend the full width of the cockpit to provide maximum bearing area in all soil conditions
during rollovers. The roll bar vertical members on formula cars and other single seat cars with a center driver position must be
not less than fifteen inches apart, inside dimension, at their attachment points to the uppermost main chassis member.
E. An inspection hole of at least 3/16 inch diameter must be drilled in a non-critical area of a roll bar member to facilitate
verification of wall thickness. This should be at least three inches from any weld or bend.
F. It is recommended that steel gusset plates be used at all welds. Gussets should be at least two inches long on each leg and
3/16 inches thick.
G. It is recommended that roll bars be coated only with a light coat of paint. If, however, a roll bar should be chrome-plated, it is
recommended that the structure be normalized.
H. Post or tripod types of roll bars are not acceptable.​

I. No portion of the safety roll bar shall have an aerodynamic effect by creating a vertical thrust.

Does the MM bar meet this spec? I think the RPM bar will but looks like it bolts right to the floor.....

i'm also not sure how I feel about the curved diagonal and harness bars although nothing is said about it in the rules. anyone have any problems getting the MM roll bar through a SCCA level 3 Time Trial or 4 hillclimb tech? anyone have any experience with the RPM bar?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I'm not an SCCA guy, BUT I have had experience with both roll bars and cages, as they apply to rule sets...

First, you need to decide exactly what YOU want the bar to do. If you're focused primarily on rules compliance to allow participation, then re-read your bolded "B"... It does specify that the main hoop must be 2" higher than the driver's head, HOWEVER, it doesn't specify what PART of the driver must be within 6" of what PART of the bar. For example, measure and strike a line 6" directly froward of the very leading edges of the reinforcing gussets on the rear seat pedastal, and if ANY part of the "occupied" portion of your seat crosses that plane, you are in compliance with the letter of the rule as it is written. If it's argued in tech, you could argue back that since "head" is not specified by the rule, than any bar could be deemed illegal since it is further than 6" from the driver's knees, toes, ball-sack, whatever part you feel like bringing into the argument. FWIW, the reinforcing gusset becomes the mounting pad for the MM bar, and thus could be argued to be part of the bar, and thus a valid measuring point. If you sit forward in the car, like I do, you could also argue that if the 6" measurement was adhered to, then that would naturally force the main hoop location into the door opening, hindering emergency egress in the event of a fire, which is a safety issue...

Long/short, I honestly think that the MM, Autopower or RPM bar would pass the letter of the rule, and I doubt you'd be tied up in tech. Even if you were, I think you could argue the matter successfully, based on the letter of the rule. Your best bet, however, is to contact the Chief Scrutineer directly, and simply ask for a pre-emptive ruling, and supply photos of installations based around the bar you plan on using.

Now, all that said, if your prime focus is on SAFETY and not mere compliance, then I would STRONGLY recommend the MM bar over the others. I had an Autopower bar, and had to add 3/16" plates, boxed and gusseted to the rear seat plinth and sill structure before I felt safe, since the main hoop pads land on very thin stamped sheetmetal. The RPM bar appears to land in the same spot. I also don't like the curved diagonal on the RPM bar. If the car really did turn turtle, that will provide next to no structural integrity within the plane of the hoop, allowing it to rock sideways (turning a rectangle into a rhombus, if you follow). I would feel plenty safe with the MM bar; it's solidly mounted, well built, and IMO will support the car far better than the other choices out there. You may want to ping Rehagen Racing, though, before you buy, they're coming to market with a bolt-in bar of their own, and they know what they're doing with that stuff.

Final comment before I get off my soapbox. That is a HORRIBLE set of rules for high-speed competition, even if it's not wheel-to-wheel! For tubing size, they do the break point at 2500lbs, and spec a minimum 1.5"x.120 material. On a car that can push 4000lbs (full fuel and driver), I wouldn't want anything less than 1.75x.120. They say NOTHING about the amount of weld required. In theory, a tack weld would satisfy the letter of the rule. I think complete 360* welds would be what you want... 11.3.3.B literally makes no sense in the English language:

"B.
All welding must be of the roll bar hoop be such that the minimum outside width measured
at a point four (4) inchesbelow the uppermost point is twelve (12) inches. Whenever possible the roll bar hoop should start from the floor of thecar and, in the case of tube frame construction, be attached to the chassis tubes by means of gussets or sheet metal webs in order to distribute the loads."

Seriously, that makes absolutely no sense. All welding...main hoop width...lower mount location... What??? Next, the rule book actually allows blowing off the main hoop diagonal, relocating it to the rear stays. Then it allows a SINGLE rear stay, terminating in the top of the hoop... Seriously??? Don't even get me started on what they allow (implicitly) for harness mounting...

If your objective is safety, take a look at the competition section of NASA's CCR, and follow their guidelines for the main hoop and back-stay construction. Since it surpasses (understatement) SCCAs requirements, it will be SCCA-legal, but might just save your ass if it came down to it, where the pure SCCA minimum tinker-toy won't.

 

[JesseW.]

thanks dave for your response. the rules do say I can apply for a waiver with the national office if the licensed tech guy will allow it. I feel more comfortable with the MM rollbar personally for all the reasons you explained, just don't want to buy something that won't pass tech. as for the measurement, rereading the rules I believe they are measured off the top of the hoop, but I do see how it only says driver. fwiw, I can position my seat to meet the requirement with the MM bar and drive the car. it just gets really hard to press the clutch in that last little bit and I don't like my arms being straight out....

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Best bet is still to contact the powers-that-be, and get either a waiver or an acceptance of the MM bar. I would still ping Rehagen and see what they can offer, though!

From a strictly safety-centric point of view, I would also do the following, just for your own peace of mind... Using blue tape (LOVE that stuff!), stick one end on the very front edge of the driver's side fender, then pull it back in a straight line to the side of the car, even with the top of the bar. Then, get in and assume your normal driving position. Does your head cross the plane of that line? If it doesn't, then even if you flip the car at high speed and it lands hard enough to collapse the A pillars, you won't be trying to support the car with your noggin. I would personally call that a successful situation. If your head DOES cross the plane, then it's up to you to assess if you're comfortable enough with that level of risk, and proceed accordingly. FWIW, if you're doing high-speed track work, I think the MM bar will be more than enough for basic safety, but if you're planning on doing hill climbs (same rule set??), I wouldn't try it until I had a full cage in the car. An off with an 80' drop at the end is a whole different matter than a simple bit of agricultural racing...

 

[ddavidv]

This will vary by region and tech inspector!
When I did hill climbs in a very non-Mustang several years ago, I had a closed car with just a roll bar. They were far more concerned with the thickness of the bar and the weld quality than any measurements of where my noggin was. If the tubing diameter, thickness and installation are neat and tidy, I really doubt you will have much trouble. That said, it is SCCA, so if you get one of those prima donna tech nazis who lives to make people's lives difficult, that's a whole different ball game.

In my case, back before I knew better, I bought a bolt-in bar (Safety Devices brand; only one made for my weirdo car) and it was no problem. My buddy who hill climbed had an Autopower bolt-in in his F-body and also had no issue passing tech. Plus, once you have the log book, they generally never check it again. Only concern is belts and so forth.

 

[lito]

I know nothing in this area but shouldn't the hillclimb regulations be a lot tougher than that?

 

[JesseW.]

I know nothing in this area but shouldn't the hillclimb regulations be a lot tougher than that?

probably, but it's not like pikes peak, there is plenty of shitty Armco and trees to catch you......

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Looks like tarmac stage rally... Without a cage... What could go wrong?

 

[lito]

probably, but it's not like pikes peak, there is plenty of shitty Armco and trees to catch you......

Well, I would not be comfortable doing such thing with an only an MM bar, that probably needs a cage, not a FIA WRC thing but at least more than that.

How many thousand miles you have to drive from FL to actually get to do a hillclimb? lol.

 

[JesseW.]

its about a 8 hour drive to Robbinsville NC. I actually drove up there last November to propose to my wife and to drive the Deal's gap in my car. was a lot of fun and empty in late November... I would end up doing the hill climb and vacation up there as I love that area. the TT's are at Barber's, Road Atlanta, and little Talladega. the only National tour autox within 10 hours is in Valdosta, and that's 3 away and still cost $100 to enter for six 55 second runs.

I also want to do the Bay Bottom Crawl next year. it's still in florida but about a 9 hour drive.

 

[lito]

I went to see where Panama City, FL was, I made the idiotic assumption that being in FL, it had to be either central or south FL as the most. You are not that far from some hilly geography maybe. I just made the comment because I drove up and down both coasts of FL and have not ever seen a single tiny little mountain hence the hillclimb thing sounded way too far from my wrongly assumed location.

That Bay Bottom event looks similar to our version of AutoX, we never found an usable parking lot or flat asphalted area so we used road racing tracks and interrupted them with chicanes and slalom breaking the natural flow of them and drove them reversed too. They have quite long straights and speed for a "shirtless" race car driver, lol.

 

[ddavidv]

I live in PA. Every year I could do about 8 hill climbs if I were inclined (pun accidental). I've only done about 3 of them before "ruining" my life by moving to HPDE's...which led to road racing...

Yes, hill climbs are dangerous. No, they don't require more than a roll bar. I ran a bar only because my car was still a street car and my sense of self preservation overrode any silly belief that I had a chance at winning a $10 trophy. It is a lot like running a short tarmac rally stage. I'd like to do a few more, but I'd use my fully caged road race car now. Older and wiser are I.

 

[Mark Aubele]

Bumping another old thread but I feel it may help someone.

I have the MM bar in my '14, and ran the entire PHA series last year and running again this year. No issues with this bar passing tech. Have been racing with them since '06. This is one of the few bars I have seen that looks as it may actually do something in the event of a rollover.

 

[Whiskey11]

Bumping another old thread but I feel it may help someone.

I have the MM bar in my '14, and ran the entire PHA series last year and running again this year. No issues with this bar passing tech. Have been racing with them since '06. This is one of the few bars I have seen that looks as it may actually do something in the event of a rollover.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/roll_bar_crash_test.aspx

Not an S197... but.... their bar post 200ft roll and crash down a cliff.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

The MM roll bar for the S197 is the best option on the market for a bolt-in roll bar. We've put them in dozens of cars and chose this model over others because of how it mounts to the rear seat bulkhead as well as where the rear downbars land (properly, not in a weird, cross-ways angle or in the middle of a cross bar, like some others).

If you see a cage or roll bar where the main hoop rear stays (downbars) mount to a cross bar like this above... that makes for unsupported nodes. Run far away. That will fold up in a crash.

These MM laser cut/cnc bent/welded corner structures uses are the best on the market.

These replace a thin stamped steel corner brace (below) and make for a very sturdy mount to land the main hoop on - in the only place that seems fit for a main hoop.

Like all bolt-in roll bars, the MM kit comes with the rear downbars disassembled for shipment on a pallet. These MUST be welded to the main hoop, not just bolted.

We tack them in the car and final weld them outside before painting or powder coating the roll bar.

The distance behind the driver's seat depends on where the driver sits, but its in the RIGHT SPOT for this chassis. We put roll cage main hoops in the same location. It is the logical spot.

I know its obvious to most here, but a harness bar (see below) is not suitable for track use. We will see them at autocrosses but that's probably the only appropriate use for these.

Harness bars have zero rollover protection and they aren't nearly as good of a shoulder harness anchor point as a roll bar or roll cage provides. Still better than anchoring shoulder harnesses to the rear seat belt points (which can compress your spine in an accident), but again - only use these in low speed parking lot events.

Cheers,

 

[Thenorm]

i still think for Hill climbs, especially where there is exposures, that a full cage should be seriously considered (if not required), particularily on heavy cars.

exhibit A