Skwerl's first hot rod

skwerl

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Got the exhaust finished up today and it sounds great. Can't really quantify it but the car seems to breathe better as well.

Also I discovered why my car was running like shit Saturday night (my times were 10mph off from Friday night). The problem got worse today to the point I was able to identify it. I had a definite miss and at first thought it might be a fouled plug. I began unplugging coils one at a time while the car was running to identify the bad cylinder. It ended up being one of the 2 cylinders that I had just checked the plugs a couple days ago. So I swapped the coil with one from the other side of the engine. The miss followed the coil, so once the coil was replaced the miss went away. As a bonus I have 7 more spare coils. :chairfall:

The car is going back on the dyno Thursday or Friday. I want to dial the tune in for the new exhaust and Justin wants to see if we can hit 700hp with a ported blower elbow. More details coming soon.
 

Weou09

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Well, isn't that what we try to do? Improve our ETs...

Maybe my dyslexia is kicking in, cause I coulda swore I've read that Radials are better for manual cars. Guess I'm wrong.

You highlighted the improving ET part but you left out the part about 60'...if you cut a 1.6 60' with a bias ply and a 1.7 with a radial you probably wont see an improvement. Skwerl you say that they are wobbly as hell at speed. Where is your tire pressure at. We have the same tire right now and mine hook the same at 10#s as they do at 18#s but there is a big difference at speed.
 

skwerl

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I'm running 19-20 lbs in the Hoosiers and dead hooking every time (except when some ricer Honda drags water up all over the starting line). I think the sidewalls are breaking down, they are a year and a half old with 150 or more passes on them. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll try the radials. If they don't work I shouldn't have any problem selling them. Everybody wants them it seems.
 

Timmbo

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The car is going back on the dyno Thursday or Friday. I want to dial the tune in for the new exhaust and Justin wants to see if we can hit 700hp with a ported blower elbow. More details coming soon.

Damn...700 hp from a TVS 1900? Wow...how much boost you think that will take? Looks like your getting some great power for the buck!
 

AutoXRacer

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Damn...700 hp from a TVS 1900? Wow...how much boost you think that will take? Looks like your getting some great power for the buck!

He sure is...with not much invested (figuratively speaking... lol)!!!!
 

BadPiggy

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Damn...700 hp from a TVS 1900? Wow...how much boost you think that will take? Looks like your getting some great power for the buck!

Tim,
Brian is certainly making me rethink that Mammoth. My car will primarily be a street car with some track time. I'm thinking 600'ish RWHP is ALL the hell I need. Long as I have enough to know I can smoke that Bentley that smoked my ass last year, I'm good with it. LOL
 

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ninja edited...


I was about to say... WTF.... blower, built motor, LTs, trans upgrade, DS, rear.... LOL :crazy:

Haha...

He had the trans before he went off on the deep end. lol
But yeah, short block, heads, and blower. I think he just meant to upgrade the blower only...then he got bite by the mod bug or got addicted to the mod powder. LOL
He got the short block, then thought, hell, might as well get heads... LOL

Never thought he would be pushing 580rwhp on the mini-TVS.

I need to up my game... sigh
There is always someone out-doing you just as you finish your project. lol
 

AutoXRacer

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Tim,
Brian is certainly making me rethink that Mammoth. My car will primarily be a street car with some track time. I'm thinking 600'ish RWHP is ALL the hell I need. Long as I have enough to know I can smoke that Bentley that smoked my ass last year, I'm good with it. LOL

Yeah, 600 rwhp is all you need; power is crazy at this level (major traction issues needing suspension mods and sticky tires-I run drag radials and its still not enough). Pretty much I have not found anything I can't smoke; street or track (except in the corners). lol
 

skwerl

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Actually I had the heads before I had the short block. I figured if I was going to run a smaller blower then I needed all the help I could get with heads and cams. It's worked out better than I could have hoped for.

And yes, 600+ is too much power for the street. My next goal is to hurry up and run below 10.0 so I get kicked off the track for not having a roll cage and then I'll dial it back to 500-550. My current configuration won't work in the summer time because my IAT will be too high. The little TVS does better than the M90 at 8 lbs but spin it up to 15 lbs and it gets just as hot. I plan on removing the overdrive crank pulley which will give me more belt slack and open up more options with boost levels. I'm thinking 9-10 lbs will be fine.
 

Timmbo

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Tim,
Brian is certainly making me rethink that Mammoth. My car will primarily be a street car with some track time. I'm thinking 600'ish RWHP is ALL the hell I need. Long as I have enough to know I can smoke that Bentley that smoked my ass last year, I'm good with it. LOL

Well IMO, if your car is primarily driven on the street and you want to stick with a PD blower you'll want something large that stays under driven so it runs cool. That's why I chose the liquid cooled Mammoth. Anything in the M90 family including the 1900 is going to run hot as hell. I've been there and done that and Brian knows what I mean when it comes to heat and how fast heat soak comes on with those little Roush blowers. Even a 2.3L TVS at 18 psi will heat soak rather quickly. A liquid cooled 2.8L Mammoth at 18 psi is barely breaking a sweat. I have no intentions of pushing the boost past 18 psi anyway for reliability reasons. Will 18 psi and E85 get me to my goal of 700 rwhp? Don't know yet. If it doesn't I'm ok with that. I'd be perfectly ok with a 650 rwhp car that runs cool and is reliable. That's where I'm at.
 

skwerl

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Tim has a good point. With the TVS1900 I can hit some great numbers but there's a price to pay for spinning the blower that hard. I could do like most, ignore the IAT's and just drive it while the computer pulls tons of timing when it's hot. But I'd rather dial it back some and preserve some longevity rather than cooking my intake.

I won't sacrifice too much though. I can set it up for 10 lbs of boost during the summer and still be a couple pulley swaps away from almost 700hp any time I want.
 

AutoXRacer

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Well IMO, if your car is primarily driven on the street and you want to stick with a PD blower you'll want something large that stays under driven so it runs cool. That's why I chose the liquid cooled Mammoth. Anything in the M90 family including the 1900 is going to run hot as hell. I've been there and done that and Brian knows what I mean when it comes to heat and how fast heat soak comes on with those little Roush blowers. Even a 2.3L TVS at 18 psi will heat soak rather quickly. A liquid cooled 2.8L Mammoth at 18 psi is barely breaking a sweat. I have no intentions of pushing the boost past 18 psi anyway for reliability reasons. Will 18 psi and E85 get me to my goal of 700 rwhp? Don't know yet. If it doesn't I'm ok with that. I'd be perfectly ok with a 650 rwhp car that runs cool and is reliable. That's where I'm at.

Hmm... My little 2.3L ROUSH TVS does not run hot...even when pushing it to 21 PSI. My intake temps never went up more than 120 at WOT on a hot day.

Since then I have dialed it down to 16 PSI and I don't go over 110 IAT or so. My supercharger coolant tank stays cool even after 1 hour worth of pulls on the dyno. During summer track days, sure it gets warm, but thats from surrounding heat radiating from the engine.

Now, my previous setup with the M90, one pass down Bithlow...errr...OSW and you could fry an egg on that blower case. LOL

Sure the liquid cooled mammoth is awesome, but its less efficient than the TVS. The TVS makes less heat per pound than the Kenne Bell blowers.

So its all relative.

Skwerl,
My M90 in Florida pushing 10-11 PSI never went higher than 120s at WOT. Sure, in traffic the IATs shot up to 140s, but as soon as the traffic moved, my temps dropped to the 120s and as low as 110s on the highway in dead middle of summer. I'm sure your 1.9L TVS will be better than my previous M90.
 
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Timmbo

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Sure the liquid cooled mammoth is awesome, but its less efficient than the TVS. The TVS makes less heat per pound than the Kenne Bell blowers.

So its all relative.

Well for a friendly debate Gerald, your going to have to back that up on how a 4x4 twisted roots (TVS) is more efficient than a 4x6 twin screw (KB Mammoth). It isn't. Here is some data for you:

http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/Dyno_Test_Potential.pdf

http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf
 

AutoXRacer

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I will admit that the Mammoth will make tons more power than the TVS, but that's mostly due to its bigger size. There is in adherent design into twin screws, they compress air, when you compress air, you heat it up!!! Roots type blowers to do not compress air.

I'm not a blower expert. But before I chose to go with the 2.3L TVS from ROUSH, I researched KB liquid cooled blower. Every shop I spoke with vouched for the TVS making more power more efficiently up to 800HP (approx 18 PSI max).

The ROUSH TVS is a hybrid roots, not a traditional roots blower.

Lets define both types of blowers:

Roots Type Supercharging
The Roots Type Supercharger is the first style supercharger that was ever used and can be dated back to the 1880s when the Roots brothers designed it as an air conveyor for mine shafts. Roots blowers act like air pumps (not compressors), and In general, Roots blowers have a two or three lobe rotor design, depending on the size of the case. Roots blowers will give you positive pressure to your motor from just a crack of the throttle, and will give all that they have to offer at full throttle no matter what the rpm of the motor. Roots Type Superchargers may look awesome hanging out of the hood and are great for those looking for drastic power increases at lower RPMs. Roots blowers are also extremely reliable and require very little maintenance, which is why Ford, GM, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Austin Martin have all featured Roots blowers as original equipment on select high performance vehicles.

Recommended Usage:
Street Use - Towing - Extreme Drag Racing - Show Vehicles

Positive Points:
1) Boost throughout the entire RPM range, right off of idle
2) Highest Potential for Gain (A must-have for all-out drag racing)
3) Excellent Reliability
4) Great Appearance & Stature (Most common supercharger type for show vehicles)

Negative Points:
1) Sometimes Violent Throttle Response
2) Lower boost ratings at higher RPMs
3) Higher Than Normal Discharge Temperatures
4) Lengthy installation times

Screw Type Supercharging
Screw type superchargers are derived from the Roots type concept but with vast improvements for street use. Although from the out side, screw type superchargers may look a lot like Roots type superchargers, on the inside you will find a twin-screw design that compresses air unlike Roots type superchargers which pump the air into the motor. Screw type superchargers have an axial-flow design that compresses the air as it moves between the screws to create positive pressure without creating the heat that Roots type superchargers can create. The Screw type supercharger's ability to produce a dramatic increase of power from idle and through out the rest of the power curve make them a great choice for heavy vehicles, towing or commercial use.

Recommended Usage:
Street Use - Towing - Road Racing - Drag Racing

Positive Points:
1) Great Power at Low RPMs (Great for Towing)
3) Factory Fit & Appearance
4) Great Reliability

Negative Points:
1) The Power Doesn't Keep Climbing in the High RPMs (Power curve is very flat)
2) Challenging To Achieve High Boost Levels or CFMs
3) Lengthy installation times
Roots and twin screw are both fixed displacement superchargers.

Roots types are simple pumps, moving air from above to below. When boost is not called for they have virtually no parasitic losses and big advantage for OEM use. Another advantage of roots types is that both rotors spin at the same rpm because both rotors have the same number of lobes -- typically 3, except TVS has 4 high-helix (160* twist) rotors.

On twin screws the drive rotor spins at pulley speed but the driven rotor spins considerably faster, so a twins crew will bump up against realistic bearing speeds way before a roots type of equal displacement will. KBs typically have drive/driven rotor lobes of 4/6 and Whipples of 3/5.

Twin-screws compress against the case all the time so even when boost is 'vented' (bypass open) they still incur some parasitic losses (unlike a roots). That is why the OEMs typically favor roots types, over twin-screws.

Historically, twin-screws had an efficiency edge but a few years ago the TVS -- now on the '13 GT500 (2.3L), ZR1 vette (2.3L) and ZL1 Camaro (1.9L) -- is both highly efficient and virtually no off-boost losses -- arguably the best of both worlds.

Both kinds of fixed-displacement Superchargers (roots & twin-screws) build torque quickly and provide for a broad flat torque curve.
Here's some more info from 68 fastback in another thread:
http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/in...its-available/page__view__findpost__p__291434

Some thoughts on S/C considerations...

Roots types are typically more affected by marginal intake flow more than twin-screws are, and I suspect the TVS is not nearly as affected as the stock Eaton by the intake, but moreso than a twin-screw is affected. If intake flow capacity is well adequate, on a fixed-displacement S/C 10% more = 10% more -- effectively linear since it's a fixed-disp pump.

However, the stock Eaton will return less of that 10% increase as rwHP, imo, for several reasons (mechanical and thermal): clearances are not quite as tight on the stocker as with the twin-screws or the TVS (mechanical disadvantage for the stocker); backwash is more of a factor with traditional (low-helix) Roots S/Cs (mechanical disadvantage for the stocker). That backwash also generates additional heat which further reduces the effectiveness of OD'ing the S/C and heat pulls timing/HP potentially even netting a HP loss under severe heat-soak (thermal disadvantage for the stocker).

All other things being equal, the S/C knows-not whether it's being OD'd by smaller S/C pulley or larger crank pulley -- it's just a linear [in therory] increase in rotor rotation speed either way. But it's that additional spin's ability to actually make HP that separates the candidates. Mechanically and heat-soak-wise, the twin-screws and TVS will well outperform the stock Eaton design. Adiabatically -- thermal efficiency (not soak) -- the TVS and twin-screws should be very close ...with the stock Eaton well behind. Just a guess, now, but I'd bet the net-efficiency (both mechanical, induced thermal and adiabatic thermal, from most-efficient to least) would place them in this order up to +/- 650rwHP, with the first 3 all fairly close): #1 TVS, #2 Whipple (historicaly they're a scratch over the KBs from the analyses I've seen, though this is undoubtedly highly debated by some), #3 KB, and a very distant #4 the Eaton stocker. That would be my best guess at modest boost levels (see below).

This is further affected (and not trivially determined) by the displacement of the S/C in question. Generally, the larger the displacement the less prone to mechanically-induced heat-soak if rotor-edge speed is not disproportionately more than the increase in displacement. So, for a given design, larger-diameter rotors actually can have a slight disadvantage vs rotors of the same diameter that are physically longer (to make the S/C disp larger) ...because rotor-edge backwash-indiced heat is more proportionate to edge-speed at a given operating pressure than to edge length at the same pressure. So,HOW the S/C design makes displacement is also a factor. Of course the physical length of the engine and other packaging considerations also affect which relationships are even possible/suitable. The big Whipple barely has a snout (long rotors) but that's goodness vs disproportionately larger diameter rotors. Further, operational boost levels also affect this -- larger-displacement and lower edge-speed designs having a bigger advantage as boost levels get higher. Over 20-something# boost, the big Whipple woule be very hard to beat.

The big Whipple (3.4) is therefore well-suited to big boost ..a bit less so for the 2.9 and then the KB, but to a slightly lesser extent, imo (also debated for sure). The TVS may beat them all in total net efficiency under 15-18#, but not at higher boost levels where it's smaller physical displacement would have to start outweighing it's inherent design (mechanical and thermal efficiency) advantage. A larger intercooler and/or heat-exchanger can extend the operating range from a thermal perspective but can't change a given design. Similarly, on a larger motor, the TVS would start to drop off in effective efficiency (regardless of its excellent mechanical and thermal) at a proportionately lower boost level -- because it would have to spin faster to maintain a given level of boost on the larger motor -- analygous to ODing it past it's sweet-spot on the 5.4 motor. Still, Eaton claims the TVS is ideally suited to displacements considerably larger than the 5.4, but that will be true for a still lower level of boost, for examle, might be about 15# on a 6.2 and maybe 11# on a 7.0L engine could be the edge of it's sweet spot ...for example only. (How much boost will the ZR-1 get with the TVS? Whatever that is, that's probably a conservative sweet-spot boost level for 7.0L.)

Not everyone will agree with the above and I have no interest in starting a pissing contest -- just calling it as I see it based on what I'm able to bring to bear. My intent is not to give arbitrary answers because, as you can see, it's not a cut-and-dried matter and is affected by usage, size, static (largely mechanical) and dynamic (largely thermal) efficiencies, engine size, boost-level/HP goals, intercooler capacity, heat-exchanger capacity, etc. And that is the whole point of the above discussion.

Dan
 

skwerl

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Regardless of what the 'experts' say, the little TVS makes a lot of heat IMO. Especially when it is spun up to 12-14 psi or more. Regardless of brand I think a bigger blower won't generate as much heat at a given boost level because it isn't spinning as fast. My TVS1900 may be slightly cooler than the M90 at 8 lbs of boost but at 12 lbs it's a lot hotter. We'll see how it does with the ported elbow and bigger exhaust. Maybe less resistance and more airflow will drop my IAT's back down to acceptable levels.

I stopped by VMP today and had the car on the dyno but ran into some issues with a misfire that has been getting worse for the last week or so. Couldn't really nail down the source but hopefully a fresh set of plugs will help. On the positive side I pulled a 643/619 on the street tune/93 octane even with the misfires showing obvious dips in the graph. Justin didn't want to run the 100 octane race tune until I change the plugs.

Looks like I have to go update my forum signature again. :beerdrink:
 

AutoXRacer

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Have you pulled the plugs?

My motor was misfiring too... But my plugs were coated in oil. sigh

I also had to reduce my gap to 0.024" versus the standard 0.030".
 

skwerl

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Gerald, plugs looked fantastic but I had already ordered a new set anyway. I actually just got them this afternoon when I got home so I'll throw them in tonight. Hopefully that clears up the misfire issue.

Cam, 9's are my next target. :thumb2: We'll see what happens with the new tires and Justin's tweaks on the tune.
 
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