Skwerl's first hot rod

[skwerl]

OK, I'm trying to learn about cams and comparing the specs a pattern is definitely showing through.

Comp Cams 127450- 229 240 @ 0.050" 0.535 0.555 on a 113 LSA
Livernois custom recommendation- [email protected]" .535" .550" on a 114.5 LSA
Livernois stage 3 blower cams- 229/236 @ .050", lift is .535/.550, and the lsa is 113
FRPP Hot Rod cams- 221/240 degrees @ 0.050", lift is .472", lsa is 110 degrees

The two off-the-shelf blower cams have similar specs and the custom recommendation from Livernois is at the opposite end of the spectrum from what I currently have. I'm thinking the 114.5 lsa would be far too much and an overreaction from where I'm at now. All the aftermarket cams listed have much more lift and require upgraded springs but my heads already have the upgraded springs. I also have limiters installed in the phasers so I should be good to go with whatever I choose.

I'm thinking the 127450 and Livernois Stage 3 are close enough that they can be considered interchangeable and I can get whichever is priced better. Both have a 113 lsa which will hopefully improve my idle characteristics over the Hot Rods without killing low end torque (as described on this page- http://www.compcams.com/Technical/FAQ/LSAproperties.asp ). I also think the 114.5 lsa would be going too far in the opposite direction so that one can be crossed off the list.

 

[one eyed willy]

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/FAQ/LSAproperties.asp

the the stuff i have read online, the better flowing head combinations can really benefit from a wider LSA. Wider LSA also broadens your power curve. The tighter LSA are for cars running closer to stock heads where they do not flow as much. My 127300 have a 115.5 and drive like pretty much like stock and idle like stock with a slight bump to them. I made 660hp on Justins dyno with them on the old lower compression motor I had, the higher LSA will also reduce your cylinder heat as well which is a real plus for me being turbo!

 

[BadPiggy]

Did you know you can call Comp Cams directly and they'll do what Livernois did?
Design a custom cam for you based off what you tell them.

Too bad Jim @ JDM won't post his specs on that red cam he bragged about.
I'd never buy a cam that I didn't know WTF I was buying.

Also, another place I'd call and discuss cams that you haven't mentioned..... JPC.

 

[skwerl]

^ Yes, that link was posted here a couple pages back and has been most helpful in my decision making process. In fact after comparing specs and descriptions on a dozen different cams I just now decided on the 127450. Checked it out on Amazon and they had one set left at $578 with free shipping so I grabbed them.

Chris, the Comp Cams personal recommendation is also posted a couple pages back. From the guy who didn't speak English very well.

 

[BadPiggy]

Chris, the Comp Cams personal recommendation is also posted a couple pages back. From the guy who didn't speak English very well.

OH YEAH!
Duh is me!
My bad.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Skwerl, you were given those specs for your application. If we were working on your car in house the specs would be little different. We would have spec'd the combo and would be tuning it. We have to take in to account many factors when we spec a grind for a customer. If we are on the same page one of the main reasons you are looking for cams is due to poor idle quality and drive ability(especially with the ac on). We made that recommendation based off of your combination and giving your tuner something that would be easier for them to get the drive ability you are searching for. Please don't buy performance parts from Amazon. Who is going to tech your combo's from Amazon?

 

[BruceH]

Ok, how does all of that tie into the variable valve timing on these cars ?
I thought the intake valve timing could be shifted by the ecu across a 30 deg range ? ( on the 11-14 cars, intake valves can be shifted across 30 deg range..and 50 degs on the exhaust valves.

Jimbo

It doesn't. I'm talking about fuel injector timing. A cam that's ground with a different icl needs to have it accounted for in the tune.

I'd suggest picking up a copy of "Advanced Fuel Management" by Greg Banish. It's under $20 shipped from Amazon and has a lot of pertinent info about the internal combustion engine. Especially about how the engine management system can be programmed for the best performance. It's an easy read because the topics are interesting to any gear head.

The vct on a 3v allows up to 60 degrees of retard. With limiters it's 20. This allows for a cam to be ground with advance built in because it can be retarded at higher rpms to increase the airflow where it's needed. A fully advanced 3v is at 0 degrees.

Most comp cams are ground with some retard in them when compared to the stock cams. This is why they usually are just fine within the constraints of limiters. If the motor is moving enough air via displacement or forced induction then the stock advance grind isn't needed and the cam can be more selectively locked out at an icl that will allow good airflow at all rpm ranges. A good example of this is the comp 127500 or Livernois stage 3 blower cams. Both have an icl of 102 degrees and do very well with 6 degrees of retard when locked out. The factors that allow this are the icl, ramps, and duration of the cam lobes.

I don't claim to be anything more than a hobbyist when it comes to motors or tuning. I have spent a great deal of time testing some combinations and plotting the valve timing events. The testing involves airflow with specific retard values. Based on number from my testing the 127500 or Livernois stage 3 (a 127500 with 113 lsa vs 112 for the comp) will move a lot air in a 3v from idle to redline if it's installed with 6 degrees of retard or ground with a 108 icl which is 6 degrees of retard build in when compared to the standard grind. This allows you to lock out the cams and not be concerned with the springs messing with the vct.

A synopsis would be that most locked out applications with increased displacement or forced induction will do very well with 127450, 127550, or the Livernois stage 3 with 6 degrees of retard. This can be done with tfs crank gears which go for about $45.

Does that clear it up for you?

 

[skwerl]

Does that clear it up for you?

Absolutely not, I am 100% completely and totally lost. But maybe somebody else might understand some of that. All you've done is convince me that I will never understand cams.

 

[Timmbo]

I just saw where Justin knocked 200 bucks off the price of a TVS1900. Pretty damn good deal right now for somebody.

 

[GallopingFord]

I can't comprehend most of that stuff. I'm trying every to understand more about combustion engines though.

I just know the 3V can be 60* retarded now.

 

[BruceH]

Absolutely not, I am 100% completely and totally lost. But maybe somebody else might understand some of that. All you've done is convince me that I will never understand cams.

I don't understand them beyond the basics that they open and close valves. I do know how to test for airflow based on moving the icl and have plotted those results. I'm also convinced that the folks at comp cams know what they are doing based on how well their cams move air in a 3v for specific applications.

I think you will be very happy with the 127450 cams. Comp speced them for a forced induction 3v that is built to move more air than a stock motor.

 

[KyleB]

Welp, looks like I'm building my motor a little faster than I wanted to. TVS install, first pull on the dyno and mine let go. Made 502 on what was a pretty safe tune, just to much power for the stock 3v.

 

[skwerl]

Oh crap! Sorry to hear, Kyle. Missed seeing you around as well. If your forum isn't going to be resurrected then this is a pretty good place to hang.

 

[lethe]

That sucks. At least with a built motor you won't have to worry as much about it letting go as easily.

 

[KyleB]

I knew it was gonna happen, just wish I could have got a few weeks out of it... Oh well, pay to play!

 

[BadPiggy]

I knew it was gonna happen, just wish I could have got a few weeks out of it... Oh well, pay to play!

Look on the bright side.
You get to start your very own build thread!

 

[AutoXRacer]

Welp, looks like I'm building my motor a little faster than I wanted to. TVS install, first pull on the dyno and mine let go. Made 502 on what was a pretty safe tune, just to much power for the stock 3v.

Oh no!!!! What the!!?? Many people have made a lot more than that and ran it for years without issues.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[AutoXRacer]

^ Yes, that link was posted here a couple pages back and has been most helpful in my decision making process. In fact after comparing specs and descriptions on a dozen different cams I just now decided on the 127450. Checked it out on Amazon and they had one set left at $578 with free shipping so I grabbed them.

Chris, the Comp Cams personal recommendation is also posted a couple pages back. From the guy who didn't speak English very well.

Thats where I bought my Comp Cams!!! The price was just too good to pass up. lol

Just make sure your head springs are rated for at least .500 lift.
I got a set of PAC springs rated for 0.575 lift.

 

[lethe]

Do you mean .500 and .575?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Do you mean .500 and .575?

Oops, yeah...