Spydershaft Driveshaft Install!

[scramblr]

Question for y'all with the spydershaft: if you get up to ~105 and left off the gas and shift to neutral, do you get a reverberation as the speedo passes through 100-95-90? I seem to. It doesn't seem to do it under load, or at least I can't hear/feel it over the engine/tranny NVH, and when I say under load, I mean both ways...it doesn's seem to do it decelerating in gear (as much) as when it is in neutral....any similar experiences?

Can y'all try this and report back?

Should I start a new thread?

Just to catch up on this, I tried the neutral thing on the way home yesterday and there's no difference between having the clutch engaged or not or being in gear or in neutral.

 

[2MFF]

Hey Kimmer,

Should all the non-install related discussion be moved to a new thread since Ron links this thread in his install instructions?

 

[MrClean]

Hey Kimmer,

Should all the non-install related discussion be moved to a new thread since Ron links this thread in his install instructions?

Actually, I think the correct pinion angle setting procedures and resolving the vibration and/or reverberation issues are and INTEGRAL and important part of this thread and the install DYI.

The drawing below shows the procedure I followed, which is supposed to be the correct procedure for a 1 pc, vs. the 2 pc in which the angle of the DS vs the angle of the pinion flange is what you determine & adjust.

BTW, on the drive in this morning I could feel no vibes decelerating from 110, although it was on concrete surface which is noisier on the tires and isn't as smooth as asphalt (so more natural NVH). The acid test is on a smooth stretch of asphalt, later on today. I'll report back on this, because as I said above, I believe this is an integral part of installing the DS.

 

[MrClean]

Just to catch up on this, I tried the neutral thing on the way home yesterday and there's no difference between having the clutch engaged or not or being in gear or in neutral.

scramblr: I didn't mean to imply that there was a difference in the vibration/performance of the DS while in gear/out of gear in nuetral, etc, what I was getting at is that with the tranny in neutral and the engine at idle, the NVH from the engine, from the gearing in the tranny itself, and from the exhaust aren't there, and therefore it is easier to feel the vibes. I actually can't feel anything under acceleration , and I don't think I feel it under decel in gear either, again because of the engine.tranny/exhaust Noise Vibration and Harshness...

 

[MrClean]

Useful sites in understanding pinion angle and U-joints

THIS ONE (although a 4x4 site) has a really good explanation of how the U-Joints work, and why they need to be in phase when under load. Read the editor's note on the technical advisor, Steve Johnson, then scroll down to where it says: "U-joints and typical drive shafts".

This One is interesting in that it provides an alternative to measuring the tranny flange angle

This one also goes into the u-joint parts speeding up and slowing down at every rotation, which underpins the importance of both u-joints being "in-phase"

This one goes into the procedure again, but note that they're building a race car (without rubber bushings in the control arms, and therefore not needing to compensate for the pumpkin rotating under load/acceleration), therefore the tranny flange and pinion flanges are set exactly parallel, without the 2º of pinion-down angle to compensate for the aforementioned axle/pumpkin rotation unedr load/acceleration.

 

[scramblr]

Actually, I think the correct pinion angle setting procedures and resolving the vibration and/or reverberation issues are and INTEGRAL and important part of this thread and the install DYI.

The drawing below shows the procedure I followed, which is supposed to be the correct procedure for a 1 pc, vs. the 2 pc in which the angle of the DS vs the angle of the pinion flange is what you determine & adjust.

BTW, on the drive in this morning I could feel no vibes decelerating from 110, although it was on concrete surface which is noisier on the tires and isn't as smooth as asphalt (so more natural NVH). The acid test is on a smooth stretch of asphalt, later on today. I'll report back on this, because as I said above, I believe this is an integral part of installing the DS.

Glad you're getting this worked out!! The tranny flange on our cars is at about -4* which I believe is why everyone states to put the p/a at -2* so that under load it goes to 0*. Makes sense with your graph.

 

[Buzzystang]

Mr. Clean summarizes it pretty well. I think somebody here already posted this before (but I couldn't find it to cross link), but if you really want to do your homework, read this:

 

[Johnmichael]

Mr. Clean summarizes it pretty well. I think somebody here already posted this before (but I couldn't find it to cross link), but if you really want to do your homework, read this:

Wow, there's a wealth of info there, and a good warning pic:

 

[MrClean]

Mr. Clean summarizes it pretty well. I think somebody here already posted this before (but I couldn't find it to cross link), but if you really want to do your homework, read this:

Great documentation, thanks! Page 13 (compund angles) 13 and the chart on P.15 are especially useful.

What it doesn't address, is the additional pinion-down angle to allow for the axle pumpking rotating pinion-up under load...[TF=Trasmission Flange, PF=Pinion Flange] the TF vs DS angle is -2.5º (TF-1.5º and DS -4º), so I have a -2º difference between the TF and PF angles to compensate for the rotation...which actually results in the PF being -4.5º vs the DS at rest....I'm going to test now, and if I still get the vibes, I may reduceby the TF to PF difference by 1 degree to having a -1º difference between them

 

[MrClean]

Tech Questions on Spydershaft

• What is the critical speed of the driveshaft (the rpm at which it begins to bow off its centerline)?
• Do the U-Joints need to be lubricated?
• If so, what is the lube cycle for the U-Joints?
• Does the spline need to be lubricated?
• If so, what is the lube cycle for the spline?

 

[MrClean]

I tested and still have a little murmur in the 90-110 range (haven't tested faster), but it's less than it was.

The "RULES" on P.8 of the Dana Corp tech document state (UJ= U-Joint):

1. Operating angles at ea UJ must be at least 1º
2. UJ operating angles at each eand of a DS should always be within 1º of each other.
3. For virtual vibration free performance, UJ operating angles should not be greater than 3º. If they are, ensure they don't exceed the maximum recommended angles.

On P.15, the chart showing the maximum operating angles for UJ decrease as the DS speed increases. The DS is at 4820 rpm when the engine is at 4820 rpm (110 mph) in 4rth gear on a 3.55 rear end. The max OA (operating angle) at 4500 DSrpm is 3.7º, and at 5000 DSrpm is 3.2º (approx 0.1º for each 100 rpm).

Sooooo, keeping in mind that the TF to DS angle is -2.5º (TF @ -1.5º and DS @ -4º)

• it seems as if according to, and to comply with rule #2, I need to reduce the pinion-down angle by 1º
• to comply with rule #3, given the DS to TF and PF angles, I would need to further reduce the pinion-down angle by another ½º

However, all of the above, and the Dana doc, doesn't allow for the pumpkin rotating under load...the QUESTION IS: HOW MUCH DOES IT ROTATE UNDER LOAD WITH THE STOCK LCA'S AND CHE UCA (POLY)?

AND if my car is a DD, should I set it up as the doc says (parallel TF & PF) to ensure the longest life for the DS and UJ's?

Soooo to setup a compromise, should I set the pinion-down angle 1º further down that the TF? This would allow for the pumpkin to rotate fully 2º up and still be within the max OA for 4700 DSrpm (107 mph)....AGAIN, HOW MUCH DOES THAT PUMPKIN ROTATE UNDER ACCELERATION?

I'm asking for y'all to comment on this and tell me, given what is laid out above, what you would do for my "DD-with-occasional-jaunts-to-110"...THANKS!

 

[howarmat]

Sounds good to me for the most part....mine is set around 1º also but I still have the same vibrations you have have on decel....i finally have more time to play with it this coming week to get it worked out better hopefully. I will live with the small vibrations as long as they are not really damaging anything but Im not sure it it is hurting the car any.

Dont know about the pinion rotation on stock setup, I have fully after market rear end so mine will be considerably less.

 

[MrClean]

Thanks howarmat! Is that 1º difference between the pinion and DS?

One response guys?

The test resulted in no change: TF@ -1.5º/DS@ -4º/PF@ -0.5, for an OA of -3.5º.

Next, I'm going to go fully parallel between TF and PF: TF@ -1.5º/DS@ -4º/PF@ -1.5º. That will have an OA of -2.5º, well within (0.5º) the operating parameters for a UJ, and in compliance with all 3 of the U-Joint Operating Angle rules. This is the last attempt to eliminate the murmur. If it persist after this, then I have 2 choices:

1. Live with it and "play" 0-90, or;
2. Remove Spydershaft and re-install the "noodle"

I'll let you guys know how it goes...the other thing is, what if something else is causing the murmur? My tires are balanced to the nearest 1/10 of an ounce, not the nearest ¼ ounce like most places (Discount) do it. I wonder if I should rotate the tires, such that if it's one of the rear tires that is out of balance, when I put them up-front, I'll get shimmy in the steering wheel....heck I don't know...suggestions?

 

[howarmat]

Yeah -1º is the difference....so under load I assume its 0 but maybe be a tad more depending on how much rotation. I am going to play around tomorrow and see what I can find out.

 

[MrClean]

Howarmat: according to what I've read, you have too little angle between the DS and pinion. jack it up, measure the angle of the trasmission flange (where it bolts on to the DS), then measure the angle of the DS itself. The difference of those angles is what you want to duplicate at the rear between the DS and pinion flange, such that the pinion flange and tranny flange are parallel. This will put your U-joints in phase.

Also, at the rear, don't measure the pinion angle from the bottom of the pumpkin; it's not a machined surface and it will NOT provide and accurate angle! Do it on the little crescent area of the pinion flange that extends further than the DS U-joint bolts; I place the nagle finder fwd of this flange. If your angle finder doesn't allow you to do that, then put a carpenter's square up to that flange surface, and the angle finder on the bottom of the square, or you can use a ruler too (I've done it each way, with the same results.

 

[2MFF]

Thanks howarmat! Is that 1º difference between the pinion and DS?

One response guys?

The test resulted in no change: TF@ -1.5º/DS@ -4º/PF@ -0.5, for an OA of -3.5º.

Next, I'm going to go fully parallel between TF and PF: TF@ -1.5º/DS@ -4º/PF@ -1.5º. That will have an OA of -2.5º, well within (0.5º) the operating parameters for a UJ, and in compliance with all 3 of the U-Joint Operating Angle rules. This is the last attempt to eliminate the murmur. If it persist after this, then I have 2 choices:

1. Live with it and "play" 0-90, or;
2. Remove Spydershaft and re-install the "noodle"

I'll let you guys know how it goes...the other thing is, what if something else is causing the murmur? My tires are balanced to the nearest 1/10 of an ounce, not the nearest ¼ ounce like most places (Discount) do it. I wonder if I should rotate the tires, such that if it's one of the rear tires that is out of balance, when I put them up-front, I'll get shimmy in the steering wheel....heck I don't know...suggestions?

I don't believe this "murmur" we are all experiencing is from the driveshaft, pinion angles, or u-joint angles. I believe this is rear end related and we are only noticing it because the Spydershaft does not hide it like the stock driveshaft did. In my opinion, switching back to the stock driveshaft would be like turning up the radio; you won't hear the murmur, but it will still be there.

Just my $0,02

 

[howarmat]

I don't believe this "murmur" we are all experiencing is from the driveshaft, pinion angles, or u-joint angles. I believe this is rear end related and we are only noticing it because the Spydershaft does not hide it like the stock driveshaft did. In my opinion, switching back to the stock driveshaft would be like turning up the radio; you won't hear the murmur, but it will still be there.

Just my $0,02

I agree....so many people seem to have murmurs or small vibrations on decel that there has to be something that is off a little on some cars. The 2 piece does hide all the this though.

 

[MrClean]

I don't believe this "murmur" we are all experiencing is from the driveshaft, pinion angles, or u-joint angles. I believe this is rear end related and we are only noticing it because the Spydershaft does not hide it like the stock driveshaft did. In my opinion, switching back to the stock driveshaft would be like turning up the radio; you won't hear the murmur, but it will still be there.

Just my $0,02

I agree....so many people seem to have murmurs or small vibrations on decel that there has to be something that is off a little on some cars. The 2 piece does hide all the this though.

You may have something there...I think this was mentioned in Johnmichael's thread on his problem...how come the V6 S197 can run a 1 pc DS? Maybe becasue it doesn't run an 8.8" rear end? BTW, the U=joints on the Spyder are made by Spicer, a Dana Corp company/brand that the pdf document Buzzystang uploaded above comes from...

 

[MrClean]

Oh, forgot to mention another interesting coincidence: when I set the TF and PF parallel, I then measured the distance between the bolts/holes on the stock UCA: 8.5", and then measured the distance between the same holes on the CHE Adj UCA on the car....you guessed it: 8.5"....which is why some of Spyder's customers with otherwise stock rear ends are OK with the pinion angle....

 

[howarmat]

It will all depend on if and how much you are lowered