Supercharger for Road Racing

[NEMustang]

Feel free to kick this non RRer out of the conversation, but if the OP is convinced that he wants to go with a FI setup....

I'm not sure who the non-RRer is...As the OP, I am looking at options, not yet convinced...however, I might be soon...

I appreciate Terry Fair's comments and others that have recommended the N/A approach to Road Racing...less moving parts, less to break, less to maintain, easier to tune, less weight...etc. However, I was trying to get some more oomph out of the current car without having to swap motors (coyote/boss option), swap cars (sell this, buy a new GT/Boss...which I will do in a year or two!), rebuild the motor with forged internals and upgraded heads, cams (already moved to FRPP Mani, Comp Stage 2 SPR, Headers)...so that last option would be FI or simply stay under powered against the Z06s, new GTs and M3s.

The reason for the Procharger choice was two-fold...one, a system is readily available and two, it seems like the better choice for RR...less heat soak, power band mostly in the mid to upper rpm range, less weight that most TS or similar...So am I will to drop 4k on an 'experiment' for another 70-100 rwhp and chance the motor...F...it...it's only money!

I think that with 3 row intercooler, some routing of air via boxing behind the front valance, the Tiger Racing hood for air/heat extraction, running only 8-9PSI, I might have a reasonable setup that would stay cooler than high hp setups, give me the additional power that I want and hopefully keep the stock motor together.

Plus the final reason...I can't sit still long enough...I have to change shit and experiment with new stuff!!! Really, are any of us ever satisfied?!

 

[Random Asshole]

do I return my GS/CS to stock, sell it, sell most of the mods seperately and buy a coyote or Boss..

Another vote for "YES". Many of us have been there. "I just need another 100hp on the straights and I'd lose this guy in the z06".

Pretty much everyone with a supercharged car falls under one or all of these categories:

1. Popped their motor.
2. Went through a lot of money and grief trying to "make it work"
3. Still not happy with it.
4. Moved onto another car.

Your current setup is the farthest I plan on taking the 4.6. Not to thread jack, but how are you liking those 127500 cams on the road course?

Older thread on this topic

 

[zquez]

Nope. Always gotta be something.

 

[05yellowgt]

I'm not sure who the non-RRer is...As the OP, I am looking at options, not yet convinced...however, I might be soon...

I appreciate Terry Fair's comments and others that have recommended the N/A approach to Road Racing...less moving parts, less to break, less to maintain, easier to tune, less weight...etc. However, I was trying to get some more oomph out of the current car without having to swap motors (coyote/boss option), swap cars (sell this, buy a new GT/Boss...which I will do in a year or two!), rebuild the motor with forged internals and upgraded heads, cams (already moved to FRPP Mani, Comp Stage 2 SPR, Headers)...so that last option would be FI or simply stay under powered against the Z06s, new GTs and M3s.

The reason for the Procharger choice was two-fold...one, a system is readily available and two, it seems like the better choice for RR...less heat soak, power band mostly in the mid to upper rpm range, less weight that most TS or similar...So am I will to drop 4k on an 'experiment' for another 70-100 rwhp and chance the motor...F...it...it's only money!

I think that with 3 row intercooler, some routing of air via boxing behind the front valance, the Tiger Racing hood for air/heat extraction, running only 8-9PSI, I might have a reasonable setup that would stay cooler than high hp setups, give me the additional power that I want and hopefully keep the stock motor together.

Plus the final reason...I can't sit still long enough...I have to change shit and experiment with new stuff!!! Really, are any of us ever satisfied?!

I was saying that I am a non-RR (non road racer) and that I was making the assumption that you are going to go with some sort of FI because of the reasons you stated. I don't think anyone would argue that sticking with NA is going to be the best route, though it just might not be feasible for you to do so. Upgrading to the Procharger race intercooler, and running a D1 with a max of 8 or 9 psi should maximize your ability to keep the AIT's and heat soak at bay, with the other things you mentioned to get the coolest air possible to the blower.

Other than the increased fuel consumption possibly becoming an issue, or possibly not being allowed in the classes you run, I would consider running E85 as well. It is as effective as water/meth injection at keeping temps down in the combustion chamber as the ethanol evaporates and sucks a lot of heat out of the chamber. It would require retuning and fuel system upgrades, but you are doing that anyway if you go to FI. You probably wouldn't want to run the increased timing that you can run with E85 since you are on the stock bottom end, but it would really negate a lot of the effects of the high AIT's as the session progresses. I know the comparison was apples to oranges but I never saw any detonation with 180-200 degree AIT's, 27psi, and 24* of timing on my old car on a particularly hot day at the strip when I still had the car. It scared the crap out of me when I saw how high the AIT's were, but nothing was picked up on the knock sensors as I looked deeper into the logs for that run. Again, I understand that it is a totally different situation with your car, but thought I'd share.

 

[2008 V6]

I would consider running E85 as well.



E-85 ++++++++++++1 if readily available - The future for higher boosted applications

 

[ArizonaGT]

Get the BOSS or at least the engine.

 

[pcdrj]

Another vote for "YES". Many of us have been there. "I just need another 100hp on the straights and I'd lose this guy in the z06".

Pretty much everyone with a supercharged car falls under one or all of these categories:

1. Popped their motor.
2. Went through a lot of money and grief trying to "make it work"
3. Still not happy with it.
4. Moved onto another car.

Your current setup is the farthest I plan on taking the 4.6. Not to thread jack, but how are you liking those 127500 cams on the road course?

Older thread on this topic

1. Popped their motor. 4 TIMES
2. Went through a lot of money and grief trying to "make it work" - YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE.
3. Still not happy with it. Atcually did find a happy medium
4. Moved onto another car. Yeppers

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

swap cars (sell this, buy a new GT/Boss...which I will do in a year or two!)

If that's the plan, I wouldn't bother spending the $6-10k on the car now.

Use it for entry fees, tires and gas.......then put money in the Coyote car.

Or just sell it now and get in a Coyote car.

 

[BMR Tech]

You're going to be approaching the speed-of-light with a S/C on that beast!

 

[tbrock]

Meziere doesn't make a 30gpm pump. They do make a 35gpm unit though. But the 35gpm unit takes up as much space and costs nearly the same as the 55gpm pumps do. May as well get one of those, they work great!

My bad it is a 20 that I wanted to go to. http://www.steeda.com/store/meziere-remote-intercooler-pump-for-ford-mustang.html

 

[sheizasosay]

That 20gpm would be major step up by about 4x's that of a stock Bosch ic pump. I'd love to have it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DTL]

I used one of the Meziere coolant pumps on my '04 E55 Merc years ago for the intercooler system. It worked very well and proved to be quite durable. They're pricey, as I recall, but a quality product.

 

[NEMustang]

Another vote for "YES". Many of us have been there. "I just need another 100hp on the straights and I'd lose this guy in the z06".

"GREED IS GOOD"

1. Popped their motor.
2. Went through a lot of money and grief trying to "make it work"
3. Still not happy with it.
4. Moved onto another car.

Yes, reading many threads, including that link you sent on PCDRJs car, are telling the same story

Your current setup is the farthest I plan on taking the 4.6. Not to thread jack, but how are you liking those 127500 cams on the road course?

Older thread on this topic

The 127500 cams work great...with the FRPP Mani and Pypes/x-off road, the thing is a beast...I currently run the car to a 6800 redline and it's still pulling. The 127500 are mid to high range cams, great for road racing, but lose some down low streetable torque. They really woke up this engine. My dyno sheet shows the HP still rising at 6150. I have another sheet where we ran to 6400 and got 372..can't find it. Here is the 6150 dyno sheet (disclaimer: STD correction):

 

[05yellowgt]

n/a wise, unless you want to drop some coin on ported heads, there isn't much else you can do without building the shortblock. You could probably get close to 400rwhp (STD) with a good set of heads You could get a few hp free'd up by going to an electric water pump but it looks like you have don't just about everything else. Are you able to do any more to lighten the car up? I'm not sure if you use it for DD or if it is more of a dedicated track car. If it is more of a DD that limits your options there obviously.

 

[NEMustang]

n/a wise, unless you want to drop some coin on ported heads, there isn't much else you can do without building the shortblock. You could probably get close to 400rwhp (STD) with a good set of heads You could get a few hp free'd up by going to an electric water pump but it looks like you have don't just about everything else. Are you able to do any more to lighten the car up? I'm not sure if you use it for DD or if it is more of a dedicated track car. If it is more of a DD that limits your options there obviously.

It is a DD...I do drive into Boston almost every day during the summer...It's obviously in the garage now as we're about to get hit with a Nor'easter today and tomorrow! 24-30" of snow!

Anyway, I digress...BMR K and all tubular control arms, steeda rad support, racing seats, no rear seats, trunk stripped including Shaker system, Tiger CF hood...I think we had it at 3370 or so, before my 245lbs and fuel. Rest of interior is stock, AC still in (I love blasting my AC when staged in the pits for a run...I guess I could just get a F.A.S.T. Cool Suit system)

AC...hmmm...when is someone going to invent a AC based CAI system to blow ice cold air into the intake to drop IAT? to cool the radiator? to cool anything else...someone must have found an efficient way to do this...could you produce enough power to compensate for the power absorbing AC device?

Here I go...jacking my own thread again!

 

[Department Of Boost]

We spent some time at L&M going over high flow coolant pumps. On a road course you quickly reach the maximum cooling capacity of the entire system. Increasing flow means coolant is also spending less time in the heat exchange system as well. At that point increasing flow will not really help. The two options are increasing cooling efficiency and decreasing heat production. Eliminating boost is an easy way to do the later.

Disclaimer - I'm not a thermal engineer but this is how it was explained to me.

I’ve spent a TON of time testing cooling solutions on my blue car and in the process learned a lot.

I’ve had 4 different heat exchangers on the car. The current front mount one is 4x the volume of the big Afco, it’s HUGE. I’ve run the Bosch pump (4.5gpm I think), the 20gpm Meziere and a 55gpm Meziere.

Every time I went up in heat exchanger size the heat exchanger discharge temps (post cooling) went down as well as IAT’s.

Every time I stepped up in pump size IAT’s went down

We just added a second heat exchanger (1.75x the size of the big Afco) in the trunk and a SECOND 55gpm Meziere (no testing yet).

Griffin made the custom heat exchangers. I have been told by more than one person down there that you can’t move water through the HE too fast.

I’m working with Meziere on the pump thing (they want to see what two 55gpm pumps will do) and they also say that you can’t move water through the system too fast.

We run Bell intercooler cores in our GT450 Manifold as well as the soon to be finished “R Spec” manifold. The engineers at Bell have also told us you can not move the water through the system too fast.

I am not cooling engineer, but I have done a shedload of real world testing that shows more flow equals more cooling. And I have real engineers from three different sources (two of which are not selling pumps) tell me that you can’t flow too much water. For the time being I’m operating on the more water the better principal.

 

[2008 V6]

I’m working with Meziere on the pump thing (they want to see what two 55gpm pumps will do) and they also say that you can’t move water through the system too fast.

One 55gpm pump is more than sufficient if mounted low enough for priming.
(2 pumps are way, way, over kill unless used as a backup)

 

[05yellowgt]

It is a DD...I do drive into Boston almost every day during the summer...It's obviously in the garage now as we're about to get hit with a Nor'easter today and tomorrow! 24-30" of snow!

Anyway, I digress...BMR K and all tubular control arms, steeda rad support, racing seats, no rear seats, trunk stripped including Shaker system, Tiger CF hood...I think we had it at 3370 or so, before my 245lbs and fuel. Rest of interior is stock, AC still in (I love blasting my AC when staged in the pits for a run...I guess I could just get a F.A.S.T. Cool Suit system)

AC...hmmm...when is someone going to invent a AC based CAI system to blow ice cold air into the intake to drop IAT? to cool the radiator? to cool anything else...someone must have found an efficient way to do this...could you produce enough power to compensate for the power absorbing AC device?

Here I go...jacking my own thread again!

You mean something like this? http://www.killerchiller.com/

 

[908ssp]

I’m working with Meziere on the pump thing (they want to see what two 55gpm pumps will do) and they also say that you can’t move water through the system too fast.

One 55gpm pump is more than sufficient if mounted low enough for priming.
(2 pumps are way, way, over kill unless used as a backup)

You have no experience are you clairvoyant?

 

[19COBRA93]

You mean something like this? http://www.killerchiller.com/

The killerchiller works for short bursts of cool air. Other than that, there's no free constant cold air. The system produces as much or more heat through the condenser than it helps dissipate through the intake. Run constantly on a track day you would end up boiling the radiator, plus the drag on the motor from running the compressor constantly, plus the stress on the compressor from running constantly at high RPM..

Short bursts for drag racing, it's a reasonably good idea. Anything more than that, it won't cut it.