Suspension setup advice

jymontoya

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It's all a compromise based on budget, and streetability vs trackability. Unless it's a separate budget, I'd buy the bare essentials, and spend the money on track time. Throwing a bunch of parts at the car won't make you a better driver. It'll make it easier to drive fast, but don't neglect seat time. The same can be said for safety gear. That said...

I won't speak to the AutoX because I don't care one bit about that. But from a track nut, here's my perspective:

First things first....Dump those Sportlines and get something that won't lower the car beyond it's usable range, having you bottom out constantly. I don't care if you go back to stock, it'd be more usable than those stupid things. Coilovers are great if you are really going to use them and get the car properly corner balanced...see adjustable endlinks. Otherwise, H&R Race Springs are as stiff as you can easily get on there. Ground Control makes a cheaper option imbetween, but it's a compromise and I think you'll be better suited to just go coilover all the way or stick with the H&R Race springs and GOOD dampers.

Second, Dampers, or shocks and struts to you crazies. :) Get the best you can afford. They make the biggest difference especially when combined with proper spring rates. Koni yellows are going to be the favorite here. I don't care for the DSpecs. Bilstein makes quality dampers and coilovers, if you don't think you'll actually play with the adjustments, and just focus on driving, or if your class your running doesn't allow adjustables. Eibach has great marketing, but I've yet to see anyone actually racing on their R2's... seems like street bling to me until it becomes proven quality. Then there's the higher end dampers... Moton, AST, KW, FR500S from Ford Racing, Koni Racing series... Without knowing exactly where you're at, it's hard to say what you need... All I can tell you is buy the best dampers you can afford.

Third- Skip the sway bars and the bracing for now. With high rate springs, and quality dampers, you'll have plenty of roll control. Once you get some time under you, then decide if you want to make small changes with sway bars. Also, the car is plenty stiff for what you are doing. Bracing only really helps when you're eeking out .10 seconds on these cars.

Fourth- Tires, tires, tires. Once you feel comfortable destroying street tires on the track, you're ready to step it up... Dedicated Track wheels and tires. Tires allow you to go faster around the track than any other performance modification. Again, get the best you can afford.

Fifth- Do get a way to tune the rear roll center. Either with a adjustable Watts link, or a roll center adjustable Panhard bar like the one from Kenny Brown. Doing so will allow you to change how the rear feels on the track. Lower it, there's more grip... Lower it too much, the rear grip overcomes the front and the car pushes. Its a balance, but lowering the rear roll center from stock will buy you more rear grip.


No idea where that leaves your budget, and that's up to you. Enjoy the process and experience of the changes and don't get too caught up in having the perfect setup. Everyone drives different, and you should focus on learning what your personal needs are and how the car is reacting to you.

Keep us posted on how it goes! We love Mustang track video around here!
 
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Sky Render

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If the clamps slipped they were not properly torqued or something else caused it (see next paragraph). Now the clamps on Lakewood units, those slip because they don't have much contact area.

And here's the other reason they can slip.... setup incorrectly. If you bind the watts due to the arms being setup wrong the weakest thing will move. I had a guy do his wrong (set it up with the axle hanging/car in the air). he didn't slip his clamps even, he just destroyed the center bolt in 15 seconds of "just autocrossing". I looked under the car, saw the angle the clamps were on and knew what he did. He fixed his error and it's been over a year with no issue, at all.

I also find it utterly amazing that folks get all squirmy when no such claim has been made before that I can find.... As with most things on the web, you need to think about what you read.

Again, set aside the autox/track/big bear mountain thing. Is X amount of G X amount of G no matter where or how it's generated? Yes. Keep that in mind when assessing statements like you read that something is inferior because it was designed to "only" do this. That's faulty logic, and in this case also a flat out untruth.

Thanks, Sam. I'm keeping my Fays2. I'm hoping to install it in the next month or so.
 

Nicu7

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Wow again thanks for the input. I didn't want this post to turn into a bashing of products post. I really don't know much about the different watts linkage systems. I certainly going to read up on what people say about each product. I know certain people will say this one totally is junk and this one is by far superior. I'll take that with a grain of salt. I have met a few guys at Putnam that race their mustangs and they all have different setups. None of them said theirs was better than the others. I am just trying to have some good safe fun with my car. Just going out with my stock tires and suspension the first couple of times really helped me learn my car better. I feel some much more in control of it than I did when I first bought it. Coming from a gutted svt focus with pretty much every mod possible to a rear wheel drive 3700lbs muscle car was a big change. I love every minute of driving it, but at times on the main straight the car just doesn't seem very stable. Guessing it's due to the shitty stock struts and shocks. Like I said many times before I'm just trying to have fun and improve my car suspension along the way. I'll just keep lapping Putnam and increasing my personal driving skills.
 

Whiskey11

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There could be other reasons for the floaty feel and aerodynamics could be a big part of that. I hear (empasizing hear) that the 2010+ GT under trays make a noticeable impact on front end grip at speed on 05-09 cars. I would try the new shocks/struts/dampers/whateveryouwannacallem and see if it helps, then look into those 2010+ GT front bumper trays if it doesn't fix the problem to your satisfaction.

I want to reitterate what Sam said about the Fays2, when properly installed it won't slip. I have had my car north of 1.2g at approximately 3800 lbs with driver in the car and fuel, sometimes with a passenger (north of 4k weight) with no slipping of the clamps. If such a problem with the unit existed Jim would fix it AND we would hear a lot more about it as there are a lot of people running the Fays2 unit in autocross and on the track.
 

Department Of Boost

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Eibach has great marketing, but I've yet to see anyone actually racing on their R2's... seems like street bling to me until it becomes proven quality.
I bought them because of what they offered for the price. There is of course better stuff out there, but it will cost a lot more.

As far as "bling" goes I don't know where that is coming from, there is nothing bling about them. The adjusters work, every click, their range is HUGE. And there is nothing about them that is not 100% functional. And if you are referring to how they look as bling keep in mind that they are stainless steel, not chrome.

Before I bought them Eibach sent me a cut away view and some exploded views so I could look at the construction/valving arrangement. They have all the "good stuff" in there, just like the big boy dampers do. Sure there is some cost cutting compared to something like a Penske or Ohlins, but they also cost far less. The R2's use the same basic valving technology as the very high end dampers and are easily re-valved/re-built. If I had to put a label on them I would describe them as "Entry level high end".

What are you seeing people race with as far as single tube dampers go? I'm guessing not very many. I'm not surprised that you don't see the Eibach R2's all over the place, but I'm guessing that your not seeing very many single tube dampers at all (except for the cars that came with them, FR500's, BOSS 302R/S). I suspect that there are not a lot of single tube dampers getting run because of the cost, not the lack of performance. I don't think "I don't see a lot of guys running them" is a good argument that they may be substandard. I don't see anyone running Ohlins TTX's, and they are probably the best damper out there.

I'm not going to claim that the R2's are the best damper in the world. But I think they are the best damper available for reasonable money, FAR better than any stock style strut/shock and they perform a lot closer to the "high end" of the spectrum than "hot rodded stock".

Eibach1.jpg


Eibach2.jpg
 

Department Of Boost

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There could be other reasons for the floaty feel and aerodynamics could be a big part of that. I hear (empasizing hear) that the 2010+ GT under trays make a noticeable impact on front end grip at speed on 05-09 cars.

I put one of the 2010 "belly pans" on my 2007 (now I have a full splitter) in late 2009 when the 2010's hit the lot. It helped out a LOT with front end lift. Good call, I forgot about that.

At a track like Putnum where there are a lot of high speed sweepers and a pretty long straight the stock 05-09 aero will absolutely be felt.

OP:

You will see a huge improvement in a few things (aero, cooling, etc) by running a 2010 belly pan or better yet going with a functional splitter.
 

Nicu7

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How is the gt500 splitter on the stock frontend? What kinda splitter do you guys run, if any?
 

Sharad

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I have right around $2500-3000 I want to spend on my suspension over the winter months. I have an 06 GT 5spd with 24k miles. Mods are:

Eibach sportlines
Gt500 mounts
Steeda CAI
H-pipe
Mac axle backs
Adj panhard bar
Bama 93 race tune


Future mods:
Bmr front control arms
Steeda balljoints
Steeda bumpsteer kit
Steeda g trac brace
Bmr panhard brace
Koni yellows/tokico d specs
Bmr uca
Steeda sway bars

Anyone have any suggestions of what to actually get? I drive the car around 8 miles a day and go to the local track around one-two times a month. Putnam raceway. I do autocross also. I'm trying to get the best bang for my $$ I really don't care about the comfort lvl. I just hate the Cadillac handling of my car. Thought about doing a k-member and radiator support also but don't think those are currently in the budget. Only had my car for around 7months and wanted to hear your feedback or opinions. Thanks guys, Jeremy.


I don't see LCAs on your list, but they help the handling.

I did an HPDE at Putnam. Liked the track. It has a nice flow and plenty of runoff (which I did not explore).

I'm just going to give you some general pointers since I don't want to get drawn into a peeing contest...

Brakes. Upgrade your brakes as much as possible, within your budget. I'd call track pads and upgraded fluid a minimum. But bigger front brakes with cooling ducts would be nice.

Tires. Tires tires tires. I know you can't run max performance summer tires year round up there in the midwest, but if you're going to be hitting putnam fairly frequently it will help out if you can score a set of track tires. With a tire like the Nitto NT01, you can drive to the track on your "race tires" if you want, but they won't grip like Hoosier R6s.

Suspension. Considering your stated budget, I wouldn't opt for the super high zoot stuff. It adds up quickly. I have a UPR/Koni setup on my '06 GT which retails for around $2000 +/- and it works quite well. No, it won't be confused with Griggs or Agent47, but UPR suspension offers plenty of grip at about a quarter of the cost of the higher end systems.
 
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Whiskey11

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I bought them because of what they offered for the price. There is of course better stuff out there, but it will cost a lot more.

As far as "bling" goes I don't know where that is coming from, there is nothing bling about them. The adjusters work, every click, their range is HUGE. And there is nothing about them that is not 100% functional. And if you are referring to how they look as bling keep in mind that they are stainless steel, not chrome.

Before I bought them Eibach sent me a cut away view and some exploded views so I could look at the construction/valving arrangement. They have all the "good stuff" in there, just like the big boy dampers do. Sure there is some cost cutting compared to something like a Penske or Ohlins, but they also cost far less. The R2's use the same basic valving technology as the very high end dampers and are easily re-valved/re-built. If I had to put a label on them I would describe them as "Entry level high end".

What are you seeing people race with as far as single tube dampers go? I'm guessing not very many. I'm not surprised that you don't see the Eibach R2's all over the place, but I'm guessing that your not seeing very many single tube dampers at all (except for the cars that came with them, FR500's, BOSS 302R/S). I suspect that there are not a lot of single tube dampers getting run because of the cost, not the lack of performance. I don't think "I don't see a lot of guys running them" is a good argument that they may be substandard. I don't see anyone running Ohlins TTX's, and they are probably the best damper out there.

I'm not going to claim that the R2's are the best damper in the world. But I think they are the best damper available for reasonable money, FAR better than any stock style strut/shock and they perform a lot closer to the "high end" of the spectrum than "hot rodded stock".

FWIW, I see lots of AST at autocross events which start at about $2500 for a set, are monotube single adjustable units (so yes, not a double adjustable), and the newer 4150's will be aluminum bodied and upgradable to double adjustable units. They also come with Digressive Pistons which is ideal for a street driven car, are rebuildable, revalvable to your specs, and if you order through Vorshlag, come with camber plates and springs in that $2500 price tag. I also see a lot of Penske on some of the National level drivers in my area. A few with Ohlins and Motons, but as far as coilovers go, lots and lots and lots of AST.
 

CorteX

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Fays2 is a great system. However, have you looked at the Cortex Watts link? I have it on my stang its great. I chose it over the Fays2 because of the following:

- no clamps to slip or fail
- upgraded differential cover
- options for rod ends and poly ends
- easily adjustable
- does not require an enormous brace from side to side like the Fays2 (over-built)
- no clearance issues with the over axle pipes
- and lastly not a big deal but a website that I could actually understand without huge pages and pages of text lol

http://www.cortexracing.com/shop/xtreme-grip-watts-link-system-street-2005/

Give Cortex a call and ask to speak to Filip (owner, used to work at Griggs). His customer service is excellent it.

Hi everybody. If you have specific questions about the CorteX system I'd be happy to answer them. We have it broken up into 4 subsystems.

1. Front Coil over struts
2. Rear Coil over shocks
3. Watts link
4. Rear lower control arms and geometry correction brackets

Also, I just wanted to clarify that I (Filip) never was an employee of Griggs. In my previous career I was a Mechanical Engineer at Lockheed Martin and General Electric. I'm not sure how that rumor got started.

Thanks,

Filip
CorteX Racing
 

Powered by Ford

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Hi everybody. If you have specific questions about the CorteX system I'd be happy to answer them. We have it broken up into 4 subsystems.

1. Front Coil over struts
2. Rear Coil over shocks
3. Watts link
4. Rear lower control arms and geometry correction brackets

Also, I just wanted to clarify that I (Filip) never was an employee of Griggs. In my previous career I was a Mechanical Engineer at Lockheed Martin and General Electric. I'm not sure how that rumor got started.

Thanks,

Filip
CorteX Racing

Hey Filip!

It's Matt Titus, sorry about the confusion with Griggs. I just checked back I misread a hot rod article. Sorry about that rumor. I'll edit my post right after this.

Anyways - love the watts link! Haven't had it on any road courses yet, but I really pushed it on some back roads with gmitch. Should be hitting a course soon. I'll let you know how it goes.

Matt
 

Department Of Boost

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Hi everybody. If you have specific questions about the CorteX system I'd be happy to answer them. We have it broken up into 4 subsystems.

1. Front Coil over struts
2. Rear Coil over shocks
3. Watts link
4. Rear lower control arms and geometry correction brackets

Also, I just wanted to clarify that I (Filip) never was an employee of Griggs. In my previous career I was a Mechanical Engineer at Lockheed Martin and General Electric. I'm not sure how that rumor got started.

Thanks,

Filip
CorteX Racing

So what’s up with this rumor I have heard about you having a SLA or double A arm setup with TTX’s for the front in the works?

Now that is something I could get behind!
 

jayel579

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This might sound like a stupid question but...When you went to the track, what did it feel like your car could improve on?

That's really how you want to go about "throwing" a bunch of new parts on your car. Does the front feel loose, rear end feel loose, is the braking sufficient, is the ride too soft, too firm...

Best reply questions here, lots of good information but the OP has not asnwered this question yet. Coilovers are the great way to ruin a perfectly good street car.

And OP why oh why did you gut that SVTF? :) lol I love mine! Well I should say I love racing my mustang but I love driving my SVTF! If you understand what I mean.....
 

Department Of Boost

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This might sound like a stupid question but...When you went to the track, what did it feel like your car could improve on?
Best reply questions here, lots of good information but the OP has not asnwered this question yet.
No offense to the OP but he probably has no idea what he wants/needs from his car.

Over about 10 years of doing suspension work for everyone from your “weekend warrior” to Pro level racer I have come to find that 99.9% of the people out there have no clue what is going on with their suspension or what they are feeling. Therefore they don’t know what they need. This includes a lot of Pro level “Fast Guys”.

Even as a “Pro” I have a hard time trying to figure out what I am feeling half the time and I understand EXACTLY how the suspension works, how to make changes, what they will do, etc. I can’t tell you how many times while reviewing data from a session I’ve said to myself “I would never have thought that was what it was going on there”.

When I am tuning for other people of course I take their input into account. But most of the time they don’t have anything meaningful for me to work with or they are just plain wrong. I spend most of my time teaching people how to diagnose their problems by walking them through what to feel for.

Coilovers are the great way to ruin a perfectly good street car.

That's bunk. My coilovers ride better than most "upgraded" but still OEM style damper spring packages (which is what most people are running). And I'm running some pretty nasty/stiff springs. If I were running springs closer to what most people are running the ride would be AMAZING!:thumb2:
 

Sky Render

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That's bunk. My coilovers ride better than most "upgraded" but still OEM style damper spring packages (which is what most people are running). And I'm running some pretty nasty/stiff springs. If I were running springs closer to what most people are running the ride would be AMAZING!:thumb2:

I believe he meant cheap coilovers are the great way to ruin a perfectly good street car.
 

jayel579

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No offense to the OP but he probably has no idea what he wants/needs from his car.

Over about 10 years of doing suspension work for everyone from your “weekend warrior” to Pro level racer I have come to find that 99.9% of the people out there have no clue what is going on with their suspension or what they are feeling.

No offence taken man, I agree with you. Most novice level drivers do not know. That is why I try to get into thier head and put myself in the drivers seat with them to get another persepctive. I think every experienced driver owes that to a novice driver to help teach and develop.

That's bunk. My coilovers ride better than most "upgraded" but still OEM style damper spring packages (which is what most people are running). And I'm running some pretty nasty/stiff springs. If I were running springs closer to what most people are running the ride would be AMAZING!:thumb2:

I believe he meant cheap coilovers are the great way to ruin a perfectly good street car.

Cheap coilovers might be half of the story but not completely. gmitch are you running linear springs? What rates are you running? I am sorry but I could not recommend linear spring rates on a daily driver. 99% of highways are paved very nice and smooth which is ok but if you are on local roads, rainy/snowy weather you are going to have to manage your driving a little more carefully.
 

Nicu7

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I loved my svtf. I really should have kept it. Like I said before, I have only owned my mustang since November. I really only wanted some advice on what people were running suspension wise on their cars. Maybe suggest what the first things they would do to their mustang if they had 2-3k to spend. I have decided to go with koni yellows, bumpsteer kit, camber plates, possibly fays2 watts link and see how the car feels at Putnam. I'm sure the koni's will make a huge improvement. The car seemed to have quite a bit of under steer at Putnam and I probably will try new pads and rotors before I do a complete over haul of the brake system. I'm still learning but still having an awful amount of fun and that's honestly the only part a care about.
 

Norm Peterson

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Tires . . . and adequately wide wheels.

Koni yellows . . . even if you DON'T swap the springs. As a side note to not lowering the car - any need for a bumpsteer kit is reduced and you could put that off.

Alignment, particularly the amount of negative camber. A few of us here are running more than -1.5° as an everyday street setting and still getting acceptably even tire wear.

It's going to feel and drive differently than a heavily modified FWD car to begin with, particularly if the FWD car was set up really "loose" with (very?) firm damping.


It sounds like class-legality at autocross doesn't matter a whole lot to you. Didn't me either as I was only running regionally and didn't mind running wherever the modifications on any of my cars put them. It was the way I modified the car to suit what I wanted in my daily driving, quite separate from auto-X (and it was kind of neat to occasionally beat any of the more heavily prepped cars in whatever class that might be).


Norm
 
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