Vorshlag S197 Development Thread

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
April 10, 2014...

[B]Sky Render[/B] said:
The Mustang is one of the most popular sports cars sold in America. I really don't understand why the SCCA isn't bending over backwards to get those people interested in racing with them.
Exactly! You go to any track day and what is the most popular car in attendance? Mustangs. We just did the HPDE at TWS with TrackGuys and half the cars were Mustangs! But at an SCCA autocross? A handful, at best. They have chased them away with their indifference and terrible classing. :ugh1:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-...t-TWS-March-29/i-qcBDbJ5/1/X3/DSC_2191-X3.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-...t-TWS-March-29/i-F9JsXKT/1/X3/DSC_2284-X3.jpg

I had a guy come into Vorshlag today with an E46 M3, needed all sorts of maintenance, and he wanted to do track events. After looked at a few S197s in our shop for service or track prep and he was salivating. We showed him the worthwhile suspension upgrades for this car and he was ready to buy one in a BAD way. I sent him to Five Star Ford and I won't be surprised if he doesn't end up with one this week. The S197 is the modern day Track Rat bargain, and after a few changes it is damned fun and damned reliable.



It could also be just as popular for autocross, if the one club that caters to this sport would just give two shits about pony cars...

Should we kick off a letter writing campaign asking the SCCA for STP(ony Car) again? Or more sensible mods in STU or STX? Head on over to this thread and let's discuss....

S197 Mustang in SCCA Solo: STX vs STU vs ESP? - http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99754
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
Quick and dirty update (4/23/2014), to answer some questions.... First, the wing we're using on our TT3 Mustang is not an APR or G-Stream or GoodAero, it is an AJ Hartman carbon wing with a massive 14" chord and 72" width. It is $1300 retail (for now), very light, very strong and beautifully made.



Last Saturday, during a 5 hour break while writing my last update, I made some templates for the trunk contour and laid out the mounting pads for the wing uprights we're making to mount this massive wing to our 2011 Mustang. The trunk contours are the same for 2010-14 Mustangs so they should fit all of those.



I went from cardboard to cut pressboard templates that day. I was making these uprights to mount the wing within AI rules at first, but then we blew that off and we made it TT legal (above and below), moving the rear edge of the wing back well behind the back of the car. We can make it either way, and will likely offer an '11-14 S197 mounting kit for both of these classes.



Jason tuned my templates from Saturday into CAD files late Monday night, I sourced some 6061 plate in two thicknesses on Tuesday morning, and a Todd Earsley (the EVO driver / TT racer shown in my Optima posts above) at Friction Circle Fabrications cut the uprights and 6 mounting pads on his brand spankin' new CNC plasma table, yesterday in about 20 minutes. All of these pictures + videos were shown on my Facebook page, almost immediately after they happened.



Today the crew here cleaned up the plasma cut parts then started mounting the pads to the trunk and were in the middle of installing all of this by Wednesday evening. We have to leave for TWS on Friday after the wing is properly mounted, so it should be done and mounted by tomorrow. The wing arrived late last week so this is fast track development.



And I zipped over to Five Star Ford of Plano today to pick the options on our 2015 GT performance pack car, to get first in line at this dealership... orders go in on May 20th but they have options listed as of today.



Plus I've been sorting through resumes and interviewing people for two jobs, trying to get Vorshlag a bigger building to occupy, and do a million other things. So my next S197 post won't be until next week, and then I'll have to cover 3 events. Lots to do, so I'll stop there!

More soon,
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
Project Update for May 21st, 2014: So where were we? Ah, yes... April events and development work on the 2011 Mustang. First we ran an SCCA autocross in April on street tires - and all of our runs were during a downpour, so that was fun. There was an informal kart shoot-out we hosted the next week, then we created a new mount for a massive new (AJ Hartman) rear wing. Let's play catch up!

Texas Region SCCA Solo at TMS Bus Lot, April 13th, 2014

So there was a Texas Region SCCA event in April that we wanted to use for dry weather BFG Rival autocross testing with the new MCS coilovers. Amy and I co-drove in the 2011 Mustang on this rainy Sunday in April. We both ran in the first heat, in a steady rain that left little grip on for the BFG Rival 200 treadwear street tires. We both raced in the local "MAM" class (Modern American Muscle - a supplemental class to the new "CAM" Classic American Muscle class).



The club had 122 registered entrants, which was pretty dang good for a day everyone knew would have rain. We got there and it was still dry, unloaded the car and applied the hastily made "MAM" class letters that I hand cut the night before. I had Olof mount the same set of 315/335mm BFG Rivals that we used at the USCA/Optima event weeks before. The tires still looked good but the rears were flipped and run inside mount, since I kind of mauled the outer tread blocks on the right rear in my 90+ laps on track at the USCA event.



We had 5 runs each and Amy took 4 of hers first, then I took a couple of runs, then she took her last, and then I took my final 3. The rain was pretty hard at the beginning of the 1st of 4 heats and we still had to run the wipers on our last runs in the heat. It rained even into heat 2, stopped raining finally sometime in heat 3 and by heat 4 it dried up completely and times dropped by 10 or more seconds.



I worked in the trailer in heat 2, announcing, and took lunch with 2nd place MAM finisher Jay Payson from HP Tuners. He was in town for business and rented a Penske Mustang GT, which he enjoyed running in MAM. Since we left the rain gear box at the shop I still goat soaking wet, while taking pictures of Amy while she drove in heat 1.


Just a sample of the results showing how slow MAM was running in the wet compared to CAM that ran in the dry

I ended up getting fast time in the 4 car MAM class with the rental Penske 5.0 Mustang in 2nd place and Amy in 3rd. The Penske car had fresh Goodyear 220 treadwear tires and Jay said it was remarkably easy to drive. He normally races an M5 in FStreet class but he said liked the Mustang a lot and we discussed the merits of an E92 M3 and an S550 2015 Mustang for F Street at lunch.



Normally I -love- racing in the rain but as usual, the conditions varried too much to compare with other classes/run groups. And at this particular event we were definitely at a disadvantage here, with too much power and tires with too much width. See, in the rain it actually helps to have more pressure on the tires, just like in the snow, so you want a narrower tire with deep tread voids - which we definitely did not have on the well worn 315/335 Rivals. The new, deep tread, 255mm tires on the rental car were what you wanted in this instance, as strange as that sounds.



And Jay almost whipped me in a car he had never driven, so I felt lucky to come out ahead. Everyone else in the class ran their fastest run on their 5th and final attempt, except me. I was 3 tenths quicker on run 5 but stepped on a cone, so I had to settle with my 4th run. I had to drive on my best behavior in these conditions, which was driving me nuts, but I managed to "throttle" my normal tendency to over-drive and just did the rain dance. Tip-toeing on the gas and smoothing out my inputs as much as possible. We also ran a tick more tire pressure than normal, and dumped the compression damping on all 4 shocks to zero.


This was the slow in-car video from my 5th run. Its not very impressive, trust me.

The rain lessened all day and by the 4th heat we heard it was completely dry and times dropped dramatically, so the PAX results aren't very representative for everyone. Heck, the only group I'd want to compare any times with was the first heat, of which I think there was one car quicker than us in the 59.8 second range (STS winner JJ). It got progressively drier in heat 2 and 3 but by heat 4 it turned into a beautiful day and was fully a dry weather autocross. That would have been fun to make a few blasts around the course, but you run in the heat you are assigned. Oh well.


Left: We got to slog it out in deep puddles while... Right: The 4th run group had completely dry runs by day's end

Overall this event was a bust for testing with the Rivals. Why? Well we're only testing these with tires to use at the Optima Ultimate Street Car shootout in November, which is held in Vegas. The chances of rain for the ENTIRE day of that event in Las Vegas are virtually ZERO, so wet weather testing does us no good for that series. I will say the Rivals have surprisingly good grip for as wide and as bald as they were on this day.

Oh well, we got to see a lot of old friends and drive around really slowly. At least we didn't have any tire wear, ha!

Vorshlag Kart Fight 3

We are lucky to have a world class outdoor karting facility on the East side of Dallas called Dallas Karting Complex (DKC). Virtually all of the track, autocross, time trial and karting racers in DFW know about this place and have driven their rental karts before. We had a couple of Vorshlag sponsored Kart Challenges in 2011 and I was on a team of 4 in the first DKC 4 hour enduro in December of that same year. We got really busy in 2012 and 2013 and didn't have another Vorshlag-sanctioned karting competition for those two years, but I drove rental karts there many many times.



Instead of the structured, all day Saturday, 3-round shootouts we held in 2011, this time Vorshlag just held an informal night competition event at DKC on April 17th, 2014. This was a Thursday night and we posted up a Facebook event on our main Vorshlag page a few days beforehand just telling people, "hey, come join us from 6-9 pm, run a few races, turn in your time sheets, and the fastest time of the night gets a trophy".



We called it the Vorshlag Kart Fight 3, as this was out 3rd karting competition event since 2011. For something kind of thrown together at the last minute we had a surprising number of racers show up. By the end of the night we had nearly 40 people who came out to fight for the VKF trophy.



Kyle and Olof built this awesome trophy out of some broken Subaru drivetrain parts, TIG welded together and bolted to a base. The competition format was simple: show up, pay $15 a race (each race is about 10-12 minutes in length), and your best times run that night from 6-9 pm in the regular We had some swag and gift certificates for 1st through 3rd places. We also used NASA TT rules for offs and spins: if you put 4 wheels off or spun 180 degrees or more on track ALL times from that session were voided for that driver. We all spotted for each other.

continued below
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
continued from above


Left: I went over the driving line, as I run it, with anyone who'd listen. Right: Fastest time of the night went to Alpha LS1 Miata tester Jason Toth!

I kept getting the same slug of a kart all night (excuses - I has em!) and while I had an early lead, I never improved on my first session times and could only manage 2nd quickest time of the night, a couple of tenths back from 1st. NASA TT racer Jason Toth was the winner, and (taking myself out of the running) 2nd place went to Billy Jack Smith and 3rd place swag went to NASA TT racer Jefri Tan (who runs in TT3 with me in a red EVO). We had one guy flip his kart (no injuries) and another NASA racer who put his kart so far off track he ended up in the sippy hole, and went home sopping wet. But no injuries and everyone had smiles on their faces.


"Helmet-Cam" Video from Marc Sherrin


NASA TT1 racer Marc Sherrin took the video above with a Go Pro strapped to his helmet, which is a compilation from about 3 sessions. As you can see we started off in daylight but it quickly got dark, and the track cooled off. They have excellent night lighting, so that made for extra fun NIGHT RACING! He even caught a glimpse of the kart that flipped in his video. We had 6 NASA TT racers, a lot of SCCA autocrossers, and various other local gear heads in attendance.

Vorshlag Kart Fight Photo Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-Events/Vorshlag-Kart-Fight-3/

Five people from Vorshlag were there and Brandon managed to snap some pics while we were there. Thanks to everyone that came out to join us - we'll do it again soon!

New Massive Rear Wing on Mustang!

Let me first start off saying: I am not an aerodynamics guru. I have a mechanical engineering background/degree, and I understand some basic concepts of aero, but Jason here at Vorshlag studied hydrodynamics in college and I rely on his expertise. I also know other people are aero gurus that I listen to, and read from. So I will try to cover rear wings in this section without butchering the science of it too badly.



We have had an APR GTC-300 "3D" wing on our 2011 Mustang for the past 2, almost 3 years? This was supposed to be a temporary fix until we found a better 2D wing, from APR or another source. At the time APR was only making 3D wings, but have since come out with their own carbon 2D design. I initially bought this 67" wide GTC-300 carbon fiber wing element to use on another car, and we actually did use it on Brianne's Pikes Peak Subaru in 2012 for the PPIHC event that year. It is a good low speed wing (PPIHC is fairly low speed, as are many of our Texas tracks like ECR, MSR-C, MSR-H, HHR, TMS and others) but is somewhat "draggy" at higher speeds, and never was meant to work at the heights we ran it with on our car.



We designed and water jet cut that original wing mounting set-up very quickly, over the course of a few of days. The goal was to re-use these uprights with a 2D wing to be installed later that year, which never materialized. Because we had planned to use a 2D wing with these, and from my insistence, the APR 3D airfoil was mounted about 6 inches above the roof line - against the wishes of Ryan and Jason. At this height about half of the GTC-300 wing was doing nothing but generating drag.


Testing at both high and low speed tracks showed we were faster at max AoA on the APR wing: 12 degrees at the center

After we kept this GTC-300 wing on the car for a year, and after constant advice from aero folks, Jason and others, we eventually cut down these uprights by about half to lower the 3D wing element below the roofline. It seemed to work a little better at this lower height - which is the opposite of what you normally want to do with an airfoil.


Moving this 3D airfoil lower actually helped, due to the curved center shape of the wing

Why is this rear wring shaped this way? Answer: To meet certain class rules. This "3D" wing profile was made to help improve downforce when used in some racing classes on sedan-shaped cars that limited the mounting height of the wing element at 6" to 8" above the rear trunk lid height. This rule was made to limit rear downforce and slow cars down, so aero engineers came up with a way to trick these low mounted wings into producing more downforce at this low height by tilting part of the airfoil element upwards by 10-15 degrees right behind the greenhouse (aka: the bubble of glass and steel above the shoulder line of a car that houses the passenger compartment).


I always look at the C5R, C6R and C7R Corvette race cars for some of the latest aero tricks - not ashamed to admit that!

So the center section of this type of wing is angled upwards compared to the outer edges, to grab more airflow coming down over the roof and following the rear window. It really only works well when mounted low, and should only be used when class rules mandate a low wing mounting height. But this became so widespread in professional GT racing and looked so "high tech" that they caught on with racers who didn't need to mount them low.


CFD data shown on GT2 classed Corvette C6R race car (at left) and a striated smoke wind tunnel picture on a 911 GT2 at right

I've even heard other racers try to tell me that this type of 3D wing is better than a high mounted 2D wing. Which is wrong. Don't confuse popular solutions for another set of rules to mean that there isn't something better for your class. It is always worth looking at the "why" of a design.


Here is a chart of Drag (HP), downforce (pounds) and AoA for the 14" x 72" AJ Hartman Racing wing run through CFD software

You can see the CFD data on the GTC-300 airfoil at this link. And remember to look at the same units - the APR data is shown with speed in MPH (SAE) but force is shown in Newtons (metric), so you have to divide that Force data by 4 to see it pounds of force. The AJ Hartman wing just has better data, as you can see when comparing the two.

When to use a 2D vs 3D airfoil: http://www.aprperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=176

Even APR admits as such in the article above, and now that they make a 2D wing again they are pushing that design. And yes, we could have picked up a carbon APR wing, but when we were looking for one last summer they were having supply and manufacturing problems. Its no secret where their airfoils come from, and I would rather have a U.S. built carbon wing than one from an overseas factory. So we started looking at different wing manufacturers...



After a lot of phone calls, emails, investigations, spreadsheets, data investigations and personal inspection of various brands of U.S. made carbon fiber wings we honed in on two brands. The final decision was a close one but we picked the wing with the biggest span and chord available: AJ Hartman Racing. Their 14" chord length (the front-to-back size of the wing) and the massive 72" max width were simply unmatched by anything in this category for anywhere near this cost.


The Fulcrum wings are super popular here in Texas and I see them used to great effect on ST, AI, and other race cars

This hand laid carbon fiber wing is molded by AJ at his shop in New Jersey. He installs the saddles (bonded and riveted) to the wing at your specified widths, trims the span to your specs and the final wing just looks amazing. They weigh 9 pounds, total, and his wings can support the weight of a full sized adult. You may not know the AJ Hartman Racing name now, but the original airfoil design and molds were purchased from Fulcrum Aeroworks, which was a company formerly based right here in Dallas/Ft. Worth.



The retail price for this AJH wing is only $1300, which is insanely low (this airfoil easily compares to $2500-4000 U.S.-made wings), and now Vorshlag is their first ever dealer. AJ didn't yet have a wing mounting kit for the 2010-2014 Mustang trunk shape so we started designing one as soon as our first 14x72" AJH wing arrived.

In NASA Time Trial we are only limited on wing mounting to a height of up to 8" above the roof, which is WAAAAAY up there, and FEET higher than what the 3D wings were really designed to be used at. A 2D wing is simply more efficient than a 3D wing, when mounted above the roof. This means: they produce more downforce (negative lift) and less drag at a given speed and angle.


I spent most of a day on 4/19/14 making cardboard mock-ups for the 6 mounting pads, then making the trunk profile for the uprights

Since we weren't restricted on mounting the wing anywhere close to the rear trunk lid, we figured we would see more downforce with a 2D wing mounted at or near the upper limits for NASA TT. The higher you can mount the wing, and the farther behind the car, the less turbulent the air will be that is going over and (especially) under the wing. We had originally looked at making a wing that met NASA American Iron and NASA TT/ST rules, but they were conflicting. TT specified a maximum height but AI specified a maximum of 1.5" behind the car.


I transferred the cardboard to thin sheets of wood, cut those out for prototype templates and then bolted up the wing

My first mockups (above) were both AI/TT legal, shown above in wood. After staring at it for a while it just didn't... look right to my engineering eyeball. It was too vertical and not swept back enough.


If we see any trunk deformation at high speeds we will add tubing to brace to these two plates (at right) from the ballast weight bracket

So when I gave the upright layout to Jason I told him to just centrate on the trunk shape and approximate height (we pushed it up to around 6" above the roof, within 2" of the TT max height). He transferred the trunk shape into SolidWorks then moved the actual upper wing mounting portion rearward about 8 inches, which put the wing too far behind the back plane of the car to be AI legal. I kind of knew this first aluminum unit we made would be a prototype that we would later need to tweak, so we will go back and make "production pretty" wing mounting kits for AI and another for TT/ST use on the 2010-14 Mustang trunk.


Check out the video above showing the CNC plasma cutter making a wing upright in about half a minute

After Jason had turned the trunk shape into a CAD drawing I ran to our metal supplier and picked up some aluminum plate in two thicknesses, then rushed over to Friction Circle Fabrications in Lewisville. There Todd Earsley used his brand new CNC plasma machine (see video above) to cut the aluminum I brought into the shapes from the files we sent to him. He cut the six mounting plates and two uprights in less than 35 minutes on his machine, and I was loaded up and racing back across town with the parts still hot.

_DSC0108-S.jpg


Once we got to Vorshlag the crew cleaned up the edges and started mocking up the mounting plates. We were super busy that week on customer cars and it wasn't until Friday afternoon that everything was finished, welded, painted and bolted together. We set-up the upper mounting holes with 3 initial Angle of Attack (AoA) positions: 6, 10 and 12 degrees from level. We left the wing at the lowest angle setting we made, 6 degrees, for our first TWS laps with NASA.


Me (at left), AJ (middle) and Jason (right) posing for a quick pic with the new wing when AJ Hartman stopped by Vorshlag

A couple of weeks after we built this wing, just after our TWS race, AJ Hartman happened to be flying through Dallas after a test with a customer down at CoTA. He stopped by the Vorshlag shop to check out our prototype mounting for our first AJH wing. He pointed out a few things we could tweak to make it better, but overall he liked the set-up. We showed him two more cars in the Vorshlag shop that need to get AJH wings, and he is making those for us now.



That's all we have time for in this installment. Tune in next time when we cover the NASA TT race at TWS with this new wing installed. This Saturday is Five Star Ford at ECR - see ya there!
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
April 23, 2014...

[B]jacksisco[/B] said:
Terry,

I'm curious to know more about what you think of the Rivals. I have 295s on the front of my car on an 18X10 and 315 out back on an 18X11. I have the exact same wear on my fronts and its a little disconcerting. I autocross regularly and also drive on the street. I have maybe 7K street miles and maybe 6-7 autocross weekends, and 1.5 track days on the tires. How much did you get out of yours?

One of the guys at autoX who runs the BFG R1s thought it might be from a soft sidewall coupled with a tire that might be a little big for the rim. The BFG's do seem to measure big when compared to competitors tires at the same "width".

I haven't completely given up on them yet especially since I agree with you in that they have great grip and the center of the tire is not worn much. Flipping them could be an option but I wouldn't feel comfortable driving on them without checking the inside wear every time. I have some 275s I'm going to try out next. Measuring the bead with of the tire I'm right at 9.75in which I think should seat on the 10in rim nicely.

Thanks,
Scott



Scott - yea, the two sizes of Rivals you have might be a hair too wide for the rim sizes you are using? As you noted, the Rivals "run big" and we tend to run these Rival tires on these sizes...

Vorshlag Recommended Wheel Sizes for BFG Rivals
  • 275/35/18 = 18x10
  • 295/35/18 = 18x11
  • 315/30/18 = 18x12
  • 335/30/18 = ?????

I ran the 335/30/18 rears on 18x12s, because that's the widest wheels I have, and that might have been part of the problem. Maybe they needed 18x13" to wear better? But I also put a LOT of abuse on the rear tires during that 3 day competition with 50+ autocross/speed stop runs and 90 laps on a road course.



We also ran the pressures fairly low, probably lower than BFG recommends. I'm sure that makes the tire flex and more around more and could have contributed to the outer tread on the rears getting beat up.

For your next set of Rivals on those 18x10 front/18x11 rears I might recommend 275s up front and 295s out back.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 15, 2014...

[B]LS1EATINPONY[/B] said:
Dude if I would have known that you were there this weekend I would have come by and introduced myself. I was there for FD
Well.... we didn't stay that long. After my crash (mid day Friday) I was in a lot of pain, so we loaded up left the track Friday at about 4 pm and headed back to Dallas. I used part of Saturday and all day Sunday to try to rest up, so I could walk upright and get into work by Monday - otherwise we would have been there all weekend.

GTA Photo Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-E...tlanta-050914/



For only being at the race track for about 8 hours our photographer Brandon got a good bit of pictures. Our shop manager Brad also took some pics and another photographer took about a dozen pics of the crash.



I'll get these events covered in my next two posts.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 16, 2014...

About that crash at Road Atlanta.

When I went to slow down into 10A after the looooong back straight during an extra long stint - the pedal went to the floor. And didn't come back. While doing about 155 mph. :wtf1:



It was a hard hit, and I think most of my damage (compression fracture to vertebrae T-11 and broken rip at T-12) happened where the picture shows, coming OUT of the gravel trap. It was about a foot high ridge of dirt where they cut into the earth to dig out the hole for the gravel pit.



I didn't black out so I remember most of the hit, but I couldn't breathe for about 90 seconds (knocked the wind out of me) and I knew I had broken something in my back. I managed to avoid the two cars ahead of me, all of the walls and the bridge itself, steered it into Pit In, and coasted right in front of the medical building. I then popped the straps and rolled out of the car, where the medics were on me in seconds.



I stupidly refused a hospital visit at the scene and waited until this past Monday to get X-rays, and saw the broken bones. I just got back from another doc visit (pain meds FTW!) and go in for an MRI next week. Oh well, live and learn.

27 years of doing this stuff, dozens of offs at all sorts of speeds, but this is the first time I got hurt. Car doesn't even look that bad.

---

Yes, we are reevaluating all of my and the car's safety gear, and I will be adding a HANs device before I take another lap in anger. Which would help for a different kind of wreck than this, though.

This impact at Road Atlanta was almost entirely VERTICAL in nature. This shunt didn't trigger any of the airbags (which are functional) and would have popped with any forward-type impact, so a HANs device would have had no affect on my outcome. Neither would a full roll cage, in this instance. This car does not race wheel-to-wheel and is still a STREET DRIVEN and STREET LEGAL car, so this one won't ever get a "full cage" while we race it for the rest of 2014. I'm not keen on driving around on the street with steel tubing next to my head, even with SFI padding that is a recipe for disaster. It is a rare car/driver combo that can have a fully functional cage and still be 100% safe for street driving with a non-helmeted driver.

Look guys, I appreciate the advice, and I've heard it all this week from every expert on the internet, via Facebook. Again: a full roll cage and a HANs would have had ZERO effect in this somewhat unusual impact vector (Z-axis) shunt. We have only a handful of events left in this car this year and then it will likely be de-modded back into a 100% street car/daily driver while we prep and develop the 2015 Mustang to race for the 2015 season in TT2 or TT3.

But... yes, we are going kind of fast at some tracks for an un-caged car, I know (although it does have a robust 4-point roll bar with diagnoal, an FIA halo racing seat, Schroth 6-point harnesses, etc). And the 2015 Mustang might be faster than this car (we should know weights and power numbers next week, by 5/20), and if so I've already negotiated with Amy to potentially make the S550 Mustang to have a more gutted/caged/race car type of safety gear prep. But to do that I have to make this red 2011 GT into a real street car again, and revert it back into her "pretty pony" by removing the splitter, wing, super-loud exhaust, RR2 dampers and some of the more racey bits.


Will the 2015 "S550" Mustang GT be significantly more powerful and/or lighter than the S197??

We shall soon see. It all kind of depends on how well Ford designed the 2015 GT, and/or if the "GT350/Voodoo" car comes out in a short time frame. If the 500+ hp Voodoo Mustang engine is real, significantly faster, not boosted, and comes in a car available for under $75K within the calendar year (aka: a Z/28 fighter!)... the 2015 GT we already have on order will be used as a temporary development mule and will get "bolt-on only" mods. Then we will switch to the Voodoo car and go hod wild... caged, flared, carbon ceramic brakes, and faster.

More soon,
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
Project Update for June 3rd, 2014 Let's cover two final April events - NASA @ TWS and ordering a 2015 Mustang - then get to the May events to get more caught up. We had two events on the same weekend of May 3rd - double booked! - and I missed competing in the SCCA ProSolo to be able to attend a car show. It sounds crazy but there was a good reason for that. Let's hit it...

Ordered a 2015 Mustang GT - April 21, 2014



I ordered a 2015 Mustang GT in late April. I ran over to Five Star Ford of Plano and met with Corey White on April 21st to pick the options on our 2015 5.0L 6-speed Performance Pack GT, to get first in line at this dealership... before they even knew prices on anything. "Real" ordering started on May 20th, but they had options listed as of that April day, without prices or many stats, so we made some educated guesses and got our order staged in line FIRST! As you can see from the screen shot, there are some extra options we added to the Performance Pack, which include: leather Recaros, touch screen NAV, and the 401A interior package/equipment group.

20140223_105212-L.jpg


There's one reason why we got the car a little more loaded than you'd think for a "Race Car" - resale value. As long as it took to sell the base model 2013 GT we picked up, and in case the rumored GT350 voodoo engined car comes out within the next 12 months, we want to keep this 2015 as sell-able as possible. We have no idea when we'll see this 2015 GT - it could be late July to as late as the end of August. I will post up here the MOMENT it arrives, and quickly start a new S550 build thread. Our initial development plans include wheel and tire fitment, immediate camber plate development, weighing and track testing. We want to test it against a stock 2012-13 Boss 302 at a local road course (ECR) within days of arrival.

NASA at TWS April 26-27, 2014


The rear uprights was the last project Ryan Begham worked on - sad to see him leave us but we wish him the best of luck in school!

Once we had the new AJ Hartman wing installed the next big test for the 2011 Mustang was NASA at Texas World Speedway at the end of April. Since Amy and I both knew this track fairly well we didn't go ahead and sign up for the Friday Test-N-Tune event. With a competitive car that has recent changes you would normally do that, but NASA Texas had an 8 hour enduro event scheduled for 2-10 pm on Friday, so we would have had to arrive very early to get any testing in. Driving from Dallas towing our rig takes over 3 hours, so we'd have to leave by at least 7 am to get any testing in... and Amy didn't want to burn a day off of work (she works 2 jobs: her normal day job and also at night, here at Vorshlag) so we blew off the test day. Our replacement front 18x12" wheel also still hadn't arrived, so we only had one full set of race wheels. We mounted up a set of new sticker A6 tires (winnings from the last NASA event, thankfully, as these are $1710 per set!) and hauled down to College Station.


With the decals still wet and backing paper drying I drove to the local Shell to fill up the tank with 93 octane. #becausestreetcar

Getting the car ready on Friday was actually pretty tricky, as we were still finishing the wing install until around 6pm. Amy, Jason and I were also having a bit of trouble with some new material purchased to use in our vinyl cutter, but we got the old TT3 number boards re-created and installed. Ended up leaving the Optima door decals on, after removing them (carefully) and moving them back about 4 inches to make room. Some Hoosier decals, NASA decals, and the car went onto the trailer and we were rolling out by around 7:15 pm. Then we stopped at a Sam's Club to get drinks, snacks and ice for the weekend which put us on the road by 7:45 pm. We got to Costas' place by 10:45 pm and stayed up late talking about work, racing and stuff for another hour and a half. Late night!

Vorshlag TWS Photo and Video Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-Events/NASA-TWS-042614/

Note: with no Vorshlag crew, and no Brandon here to shoot his amazing pictures, and Amy feeling under the weather, we didn't get a lot of great shots from this event. Luckily Anna and Paul Costas shot a lot of pics and I used a number of their images in this event write-up. Matt Ruiter (a local TAMSCC racer) also took some great shots, which I have used with his permission as well.


My favorite shot of our car all weekend was this one taken in our paddock by Matt Ruiter.... Full rez version in our TWS event gallery

We got out to the track EARLY Saturday morning and dropped the trailer next to Costas and Matt White's trailers, who got a great paddock spot next to grid days earlier. Unloaded the car, topped off fuel, and got the sticker backing off, and went to a very brief TT driver's meeting where I handed our our TT maps.


Our paddock housed: our Mustang, Costas' GT1, Matt's ST1 Mustang, Misty's ST2 Camaro, Adam's E36, Toth in a Supra, and Norm's TTD BRZ

Amy and I decided that I would drive in the first TT session, which on Saturday is always a TT Practice that doesn't count towards anything except grid placement. But that still makes it pretty important, as gridding poorly only makes it harder to get a clean lap all day. You have to earn your place up the grid, and getting stuck behind slower cars can ruin your best TT laps. If you do poorly in Practice Saturday you often spend most of the remaining 3 sessions "working your way up the grid". As driver's get faster the grid placement shuffles, hopefully to keep faster drivers always ahead of slower drivers for the first few hot laps.

reverseTWS%20Track%20Map%20copy-L.jpg


This first Practice TT session was super packed, with 61 cars on grid. Yes, not only did we have a record number of TT drivers but we also had all of the Competition school students joining us. TWS is only 2.9 miles so you can imagine that with 61 cars out there at once it was going to get crowded. NASA TT driver and instructor Jason Toth rode shotgun with me in the TT Practice, to see the driving line on this configuration before he hopped in with his students and in his TT ride later that day.


Getting ready for that first session, Costas took off these Goodyears and ran his this weekend on Hoosier slicks

See, we can take students or others with us in TT, but if we set our fastest lap of the day with a passenger our times will be automatically DSQ'd. They actually encourage some TT drivers to take HPDE students along if we are instructing that day but we only told to drive no faster than about "8/10ths", for safety reasons. Since this was just a TT Practice it wouldn't hurt, and I knew it would be slow, so Jason rode along. We got to grid pretty early and luckily started out in 5th place. There were two TT1 Corvettes and two Vipers ahead of us, and a whole bunch of cars behind us.


We had quite a variety of cars in the first TT practice session, with the Comp School thrown in the mix!

Then this mess happened...

A Spin, A Wrecker, Several Passes Under Yellow and two DSQs

During the TT Practice there was a spin and a flat bed wrecker was called out on course for an extraction. There were then a number of Passes Under Yellow that were not appreciated by the track workers. Not one bit.



If you watch the video linked above you will see that we had a front row seat to a big nasty spin by a Viper Competition Coupe from the comp school group, about 30 feet in front of me at the 3:00 mark, entering T11. See, during the entire warm up lap this driver was scrubbing his tires like mad. I commented that maybe that was a bit much, but overall I just had a bad feeling - my Spidey Sense was tingling - so I backed way off this car when the first four cars ahead of me went Green during the out lap entering Turn 3, to give this guy some extra room. And I'm glad I did, because even through all four TT1 cars in front of built a big gap on the main straight most of them braked VERY early into Turn 15, where we're all doing about 150+ mph. The big gap I left quickly vanished and I had to back off into Turn 15 then 14 to avoid catching him. No big deal, it happens when we aren't gridded up in order by times - which is why the first session is called PRACTICE, so we can get gridded up in order by the first timed TT session. :)


Left: We have to run a nearly full tank and several weight plates to make our 3802 minimum weight

In the video the Viper slammed over the left curbing hard at T14, which may have damaged something. I pointed out the hard curb hit in the video. We caught up to him a bit in T12 then he braked pretty early into T11, and by this point I felt something was going to happen. Sure enough, the rear tires locked and he spun under braking into T11, first this way then that, on track and off. The spin was actually telegraphed pretty far in advanced and I had actually told Jason "Watch this", but the mic didn't pick it up on the video. I got the Mustang slowed down in plenty of time, and when he couldn't get going (he broke a half shaft) we threaded our way around him and got up to speed again.

Luckily I had pulled bit of a gap to the cars behind me, who probably didn't even see the spin happen, and I didn't impede anyone. The Viper pulled to the outside of the road in Turn 10 under momentum and parked - and without any halfshaft or drive, he was stuck. Everyone saw the Viper parked in T10 for 2 or 3 laps, with a waving yellow the whole time in this corner station. After getting back up to speed we took a leisurely hot lap 2 with an indicated 1:51.63 on the AiM SOLO, all while getting held up behind slower lapped traffic, making a pass, slowing heavily for Turn 10 (still waving yellow), and not really pushing it hard.

Funny thing was, that very compromised lap damn near matched my TT3 lap record time from this event in April 2013, where I ran a 1:51.530 and won TT3 both days. That best lap in 2013 was with me pushing hard, going 10/10ths on fresh 315 Hoosier A6 tires, using the APR GTC300 rear wing, the same power level, but the stock hood and the Laguna Seca plastic front splitter. Watching that old video I can see the front end wanted to push a lot at speed on corner entry and the rear was loose at speed, such as entering Turns 2 and T1 before the front straight.



After I ran that lap and saw the 1:51.6 as I crossed the start-finish line, I backed off (as you can see above, to about a 2:00 minute lap pace) and we immediately saw a waving yellow AND an EV/Ambulance flag added at the corner station before Turn 10, located inside Turn 13. Two corner workers there were waving two flags vigorously and that got my attention fast, even when slowing down from 150 mph. In the video I noted the yellow and the newly added Emergency Vehicle flag to Jason (at the 4:13 mark) and you can see that I backed way off, anticipating something new at the next corner station. We both knew what the two new flags meant - the TWS track crew must have rolled a wrecker out to Turn 10 to attempt a "hot extraction" of the Viper, which was stuck on the racing line in that corner for the past 2 laps. The entire session of 61 cars had already driven by the parked Viper, TWICE, so this shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone. Once you see waving yellows AND an EV flag AND a wrecker on course, that TT lap is OVER, if not the entire session.



At the 3:38 mark in the video you see the second corner station in a row with waving a yellow flag and an obvious wrecker extraction going on. With the corner worker moved out of his protected corner station next to the track waving vigorously he really wants us to slow down for the wrecker driver, who is standing on the track and nearly right on the hot driving line. At this point I backed off even more as I approached this chaos, before T11. But there were some drivers blazing up in my rear view mirror between Turn 12 to T11, and I'm looking back and wondering if they had seen the flags at T13 and ahead at T10?? Nope. They are going full tilt, nose to tail in a major battle. It wasn't until the entry to T11 that I realized - these guys are about to pass me! Between a corner worker violently waving a yellow flag outside of his protected berm and right next to a wrecker driver trying to load the Viper - which has been sitting in the same spot now going on 3 laps - onto his flatbed.


Left: Jefri Tam drove to 2nd place in TT3 both days. Right: John Roberts placed 3rd Saturday then 2nd place in TT2 in his LS1 Miata on Sunday

I quickly pulled even father to track left, let loose a stream of expletives as the two drivers pass me going 10/10ths, mid-corner next to the wrecker, and watch as yet another driver behind these two also takes Turn 10 flat out then blows by me before we've even left the "danger zone" of this corner workers area (aka: 90 degrees from the corner station). Remember: this is a Time Trial practice session, the times during which don't even count, and nobody is racing for position. This exact corner has had a yellow flag flying and a car stuck on track for going on 3 laps.

10256391_10202990063664914_7545692114254358396_o-L.jpg


I got back up to speed after this corner, stayed out of everyone's way, and dove into the hot pits. Once there the TT director asked me how the session went, and I told him what happened with some colorful language to emphasize my point. Later I found out the TWS wrecker crew was furious and wanted a handful of people thrown out of the track for the weekend. It wasn't just 3 cars that passed under yellow near the wrecker, it was closer to 6. These track workers literally put their lives on the line for us, and deserve more respect from the drivers.

continued below
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
continued from above


Pictures in Turn 10 from another session. At right you can see some power on oversteer and counter steering going on...

There was a discussion about this incident on our local TT Facebook group a few weeks later. Some of the more experienced TT racers got pretty fired up when they saw the video and proposed some changes for the TT group. At a minimum we expect to have more post-session TT driver's meetings and hopefully some increased flag awareness from the drivers.

And Now.... Back to The TT Action on Saturday

I tried to stay focused and since I was gridded in P4 after the practice, which was good placing for the first timed session. Temperature was stable at 76°F, as it was overcast and relatively cool almost all day.


Left: Times from the gigantic clusterf*ck TT Practice session. Right: Times from TT Session 1 that followed

Amy and I agreed that I would go out in this first timed TT session to try to put in a good hot lap or two. We were on the new sticker set of 335/345 A6 tires, which I scrubbed in during the TT Practice. I went out with cold tire pressures of 28 psi front and 26 psi rear, which gives me hot pressures of 35 psi / 33 psi. We left the new wing at 6 degrees AoA, as it felt pretty good during the practice session and I wasn't even pushing hard yet. Not too much drag, with just enough rear bite at high speed exiting Turns 2 and 1 onto the main straight.



I had clear track and put in one good hot lap at a 1:48.440, more than THREE SECONDS quicker than our best lap here last year! That was exciting. As I crossed start/finish and saw the lap time I had the TT1 Corvette of Marc Sherrin tuck in behind and start drafting me, but I was pointing him by to pass, because I wanted to bank that lap (in Time Trial if you have a 4 off or spin on track your session times are DSQ'd). He figured it out and went on by me. Took a cool down lap and came in, figuring this would be my last laps of the day. That time went on to put us 6 seconds ahead of 2nd place in TT3, and we had 5 entrants in class on Saturday, so that meant we won 2 tires.



Maybe I could have made an even quicker lap 2, but I figured I would just catch traffic anyway and I didn't want to waste the tires. Amy went out in an HPDE 3/4 session just before lunch, to put in some laps, learn the line and get her up to speed, then she planned on running the two remaining TT sessions after lunch. But she wasn't feeling good, with crazy sinuses and a massive headache, and didn't feel well enough to drive after lunch... which meant that I got to drive in TT session 3 and 4, if I wanted.


Left: Saturday TT session 2 results. Right: End of day Saturday TT official results

I went out in TT session 2 at 2:10 pm and put in a 1:48.481 lap, nearly matching my time from the previous session (.04 difference). I was on a good hot lap 2 but had to abort the lap when I came upon a inattentive driver on a cool down lap ahead of me. I assume he clearly saw me gaining on him for 4-5 corners and he sort of pulled to track right, so I attempted a pass in a high speed corner (T7). In the middle of the corner he just came over on me and I had to put 2 wheels in the dirt track left to avoid a collision. This isn't the first time this has happened with this driver, and I hope he becomes more aware of his surroundings before he causes an accident. I'll just keep giving this driver plenty of extra room.



I wanted to note that this blocking situation is highly unusual in our NASA TT group, and the vast majority of our TT drivers have excellent situational awareness and go to great lengths to cooperate with other drivers, so that everyone can get their fast laps in.


There was plenty of carnage out at EVO Island, with one poor guy wrecking or blowing up BOTH of the EVOs he brought

The weather was still overcast and 77 degrees, but we started to get a hint of a sprinkle of rain at the very end of this second lap, so I took a cool down lap and came in. The final TT Session (4th) of the day got hot, after the sun had come out, and temps went up to 83°F. Everybody that ran this session slowed way down. We saw this coming and I'm glad we didn't go out in the session and waste the tires and brakes. With a 3800 pound Mustang you have to conserve these consumables when you can!



By 6 pm the racing was wrapped up and NASA threw a great Saturday night party, as always. This one was special: they had a massive crawfish boil, lots of beer and soft drinks, chicken cooked on a grill, and the School of Rock kids ROCKED THE HOUSE for almost 2 hours. We had a great time relaxing, bench racing, drinking and eating with racers and friends. After the Passing Under Yellow Practice fiasco and then getting run off track only two sessions later, I was more than ready for a few stiff drinks, heh. What a crazy day!


Left: They had an amazing spread of food. Right: I got another TT3 lap record certificate and trophy - wish that 1:37.790 lap was mine, tho!

An old college / racing buddy Chris Ramey (who is a National Champion autocrosser and who also spent several years racing wheel to wheel in SCCA) did his first NASA TT event in his red C6 Z06 and he had an absolute blast, so I'm sure we'll see him back. We had a big group at a table eating and drinking, with Marc Sherrin, Jason Toth, Adam Faust, me, Amy and Todd Earsley... then Ramey started making Scotch and Sodas and we floated a keg of Shiner. Amy was still feeling cruddy so we left early and crashed out at about 9:30 pm.


Left: Chris Ramey was always known as Captain Oversteer - and he didn't disappoint! Right: Jamie Beck's 2013 GT has all of our goodies

This was an unusual day for Time Trial - TT1 had an astonishing 9 entries, TTB had 6, TT3 had 5, and every class was unusually brimming with drivers. I was happy to end up in 5th overall out of the entire TT group, to win TT3 and to reset our old lap record by such a large margin, which was even quicker than the new TT2 lap record. They gave out trophies and lap record certificates - and while our's had the wrong time and even Vorshlag was misspelled, its the thought that counts.

NASA TT - Sunday at TWS


Left: Spec Miatas "bump drafting". Right: The Costas "ResQ" Supra, former stage rally car, made its asphalt debut with Jason Toth driving

We got to the track early, Amy was still under the weather and not driving for the day, so I went out in TT Session 1. Well, before that it got a bit crowded and busy in our paddock area, Amy was kind of out of it, and we brought no crew with us. So I'm doing my pre-track checks: tire pressures, fluid levels, visual inspection of tires, torquing lug nuts, and put about half a quart of oil in.... and apparently left the oil fill cap off. Someone was talking to me and I got distracted.



I went out in the first session and felt like it was a little down on grip in left hand turns. Never saw any smoke or indication that anything was wrong. I put in a 1:48.712 lap, throwing away some time in Turn 14 where I slid the car and lost time - its obvious in the video but not worth editing and trying to match the data to. Speaking of that, Brandon is having a helluva time with the data merge and it is apparently due to the abnormal video file format that my Sony HD vidcam puts out, so we're on the hunt for a new video camera that uses the same SD cards. I don't want a GoPro, but something with a real lens and that can use a remote start/stop/off like our existing unit.


Left: Sunday's TT Session 1, my only session of the day. Right: Sunday end of day TT official results

I tried a second hot lap in that session, it was a clear lap but I slowed down to a 1:49 and change and it was obvious the car was slowing down. I took a cool down and came in. I hopped out of the car while Amy opened the hood - "Terry, COME HERE PLEASE." She showed me that there was OIL EVERYWHERE. The oil cap, that I had left off, had fallen down in the engine compartment from where I left it. I checked the oil level and the engine was about a quart low (but we run this motor with +1 quart over full). Its amazing what a TOTAL MESS you can make with quart of oil! I fished out the oil cap, undamaged, cleaned up some of the oil mess, but it had pumped engine oil down and through the wheels all over the right front tire. This was big old mess that could have been bad. Didn't hurt the motor, never lost oil pressure, but this explains why the grip fell off in hot lap 2.


Left: Leaving the oil cap off for 2 laps spilled a quart of oil out. Right: It was pumping through the wheel. This was my own damned fault!

Hot engine oil on a brake caliper could have flashed over, caught fire, and ended up in a very stupid mistake. It was still 77°F and overcast in that session, so we had the same conditions as Saturday. I thought about it and I could have gone out in TT session 2, but there was so much oil all over the car and I was once again about 6 seconds ahead of 2nd place that we didn't risk it. Amy still felt like crap, so after we stuck around to watch TT session 2, we loaded up and headed back to Dallas before lunch. TT1 got faster and their times dipped into the 1:45s to 1:46 range, but we just weren't going to catch them at our power levels on this high speed track. Any why should we? Those cars have nearly double the power per pound carried.

It looked like it was going to rain any minute, and sure enough, after we got 10 minutes from the track it started to rain and continued to come down throughout most of our 3+ hour trip back to Dallas. I really wanted to save this set of Hoosiers for the Global Time Attack event at Road Atlanta in a couple of weeks, so it was a good decision to opt out of the last 3 TT sessions of the day. Conserving consumables.



We watched live timing for the remaining TT sessions and SU races via Race Monitor on the way back, which was pretty exciting. TTB was a heck of a battle with our customer Allan Page in an E46 M3 fighting against Dysen Pham in an S2000, which has been almost unstoppable in our region ever since these cars got a "dyno reclass" and essentially 12 free points to play with for mods. Allan had taken the lead early on, reset the TTB record, then Dysen switched from Maxxis tires to a sticker set of Hoosier A6s and retook the lead and got down to a 1:52.824 for the win with Allan at a 1:52.972 - close finish! Another customer of ours, Norm Wilhelm (shown above), had a dominant win in TTD in a BRZ on MCS dampers and Vorshlag plates we supplied him with. Norm ended up besting the 2nd place TTD FT86 chassis twin by 2 seconds.

continued below
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
continued from above

20140426_091624-L.jpg

Mike Patterson won all 4 American Iron races on new 18x9.5" Forgestar F14s he got from Vorshlag, with a fastest race lap of 1:53.0

Looking back at the weekend I took two hot laps in the TT Practice (1 aborted), one hot lap in TT session 1 and two laps in TT session 2 (1 aborted) on Saturday. For Sunday I took all of one hot lap, in TT session 1. That should leave us plenty of tires left for GTA, other than Amy's entire HPDE 3/4 session she took - but since she was mired in traffic it kept her speeds and tire wear down. Our new wing worked great, even through we only tried it at one position (6 degrees AoA). We made mounting holes for 3 positions - 6, 10 and 12 degrees - but the car felt so good I didn't want to mess with it, and with as few laps as we took here we didn't get in much testing - we were hoping to do that at Road Atlanta.


Amy running in a DE group was pretty funny, traffic-wise

We did make several shock adjustments on the new MCS RR2s during the weekend, and with easier access to the rear rebound knobs that was a welcome improvement. The dampers felt great with our Maxcyspeed custom valving, soaking up the bumpy pavement from this old track. New mechanical grip from the wider tires was evident in the slow turns and the added grip from the new rear wing helped at higher speeds. Its notable that we run the AJ Hartman wing at 6 degrees and it has more stick than the GTC-300 had at 12 degrees, and lots less drag. Last year we were "dirt tracking" through Turns 1 and 2 up onto the banking but this year the car was a lot more stuck down and confidence inspiring.

I like the car with more downforce. Unlike true "aero cars" that have very narrow speed ranges of effectiveness and HUGE downforce numbers, our splitter and wing combo seems to just make the car easier to drive, makes the brakes more effective at high speeds, and we're dropping major time from last year's lap records with almost the same set-up and power levels. We won TT3 by about 6 seconds again on Sunday and with 5 cars in class won another 2 tires for a total of 4 over the weekend. This might have been the last time NASA ever runs TWS 2.9 going ClockWise, as there are serious rumors of the owners selling the track and turning the land into a housing development. The MUD passed by the city a few weeks prior to this event, so who knows? We might be back in 2015 for a final time, but if so I think this 1:48.4 lap is more solid than the 1:51.5 lap I ran last spring in 2013.



It was a record attendance for TWS with NASA, with 335 entrants. Will and Dave and all the folks from NASA Texas did a great job with the racing, paddock, Saturday party, and I heard the Friday 8 hour enduro was a blast. We had a good time, with two solid wins and a new track record, especially considering the strange events on Saturday.



Costas had a great weekend in his GT-1 car, putting in TTU wins both days and winning several of the SU races on new Hoosier tires (switching from Goodyear). In SU qualifying he managed a 1:45.0 lap, which was the quickest lap recorded all weekend - nice! He had a nasty blowout at one point but it didn't phase him and he just swapped on some other tires. I can't do it justice here, so check out his write-up for the TWS weekend is located at his Witchdoctor website, which is always fun to read.

ch220pic01-L.jpg


Texas SCCA ProSolo - Welcome Party - May 2, 2014

the following weekend Vorshlag sponsored the Friday night welcome party at the Texas Pro Solo held out at Mineral Wells on May 2nd, 2014. This event was within days of the the annual Cinco de Mayo celebration that is huge in Texas, and was the theme of the event. Contrary to what you might think, May 5th isn't "Mexican Independence Day" but actually a celebration in both Mexico and the USA of our thanks to Mexico for fighting off the French, who were invading their lands in 1862 and threatening to support the Confederates in the American Civil War. The Mexicans were outnumbered 2 to 1, and the French hadn't been defeated in battle in 50 years. This battle also marked the last time any European force has invaded the Americas. The more you know...



All that might explain why someone put a Mexican sombrero on me while I drank German beer and cooked American burgers and dogs for about 200 people over the course of a few hours. Jason went with me and talked to a number of folks at this Friday night event as well, and our shop foreman Brad Maxcy was running the event, as he does for all Texas Region SCCA Solos. Special thanks to Jen Maxcy, who helped me work the grill and serve the meats. The competition for the ProSolo was on May 3-4th, but we were double-booked with an event (see below) on Saturday, so we couldn't compete in this event. Bummer, would have been fun to run in Street Mod.

Sam Pack 24th Dallas Spring Nationals Car Show, May 3, 2014

And this is the event we missed the ProSolo for, held on the Saturday following the ProSolo Welcome Party. Seems a little nuts to miss a ProSolo for a car show, but I had ulterior motives: they had a pre-production 2015 Mustang on display, and I was hoping to both weigh and drive this car, or at least measure a few things and sit inside of it. Corey White from Five Star Ford convinced me to enter and even sponsor this car show, so we showed off our TT3 prepped Mustang that day.



Photo gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Car-Shows/Sam-Pack-carshow-050314/

We got there around 8 am and set-up our trailer then unloaded the Mustang, just as it was prepped after the TWS event. I cleaned it up a bit on site and then set up our tables and some demo parts. We talked to about 60-70 people that day, which is good for a typical car show, I guess. Saw several of our customers there, but many of them didn't show up until after 10:30 am as there was a Cars & Coffee event that morning (these events are HUGE and draw in 1200+ cars and thousands of spectators). Having this car show on the same day as C&C was a bit odd, but hey, its not my event.



There were some beautiful cars at this car show, like the various C2 Corvettes above. And the typical, garish, silly car show stuff... loads of chrome ding-dongs and add-ons, little turntables with model cars under hood, every other car had a supercharger, etc.



I have to admit, this is not my scene. At. All. But we were there for a better reason than entering a car show... to see another pre-production 2015 Mustang and hopefully measure, weigh and drive this thing.



This pre-production vehicle was locked up all day and nobody could find the handler that Ford sent with this car to get us inside it, to ask if we could weigh it, or drive it. Aaron Sockwell from Dusold Designs and I took matters into our own hands and just went over and measured a few things...



We crawled under the car and snapped a few pictures of front and rear suspension, but they show little more than we already knew. I did manage to snap a pic of the front strut to inner wheel distance, but it wasn't much. Discouraging.



We measured outside track widths and the front was over 2.25" narrower than the rear outside track measurement on this car, which was equipped with 255/40/ZR19 tires at both ends. That's likely going to make the car understeer more, of course. Staggered track width or tire width set-ups are almost always done by OEMs to "insure understeer". Oh well, one more thing for us to fix.



Corey called in some excellent food trucks and we tried a little bit of food from all 3 of them, including some amazing ice cream from the truck at left. The wood fired pizza truck was a huge hit as well. We killed most of the day waiting to try to get inside this car, hoping to weigh and drive it, and saw some neat stuff in Sam Pack's personal collection with the included museum ticket that all car show entries got.



I Look Inisde The 2015 Mustang - Video!

Finally, at around 5:30 pm, the Ford handler showed up to load the Mustang onto his trailer, and we were waiting for him. There were about 6 of us hounding the guy and we got to at least look inside the car's interior and trunk. I brought our Sony 1080P vidcam and we shot about 8 minutes worth of video, linked below. He wouldn't open the hood for us (in fact the hood latch was disabled) and refused to let us weigh the car (we can probably guess why). It was a pre-production and "very early build" car show model at that, so it had extra welding and bondo to smooth all sorts of sheet metal seams in the door jambs and trunk that would never be done on a production car. Turns out it was a 4 banger, which sounded like a vacuum cleaner when revved up, which we heard when Corey got in for a few seconds as well as when the Ford guy drove it away.



In the ~8 minute video above, Jason and I walked around the car discussing several items on the S550 chassis, and were actually pretty impressed with some of the aero and drag reduction tricks they have done. Sure, it might gain some weight, but it will likely be the most fuel efficient Mustang ever built (esp. the turbo 4) and a lot of that is due to the hard work of a lot of body and aero designers at Ford. The clean trim work, tight body lines, divorced mirrors and some other tricks will also benefit racers like us as well. The interior room was remarkably bigger, and 6'6" Corey White fit well, and even had to move the seat up a notch. I did my "helmet test", and at 6'3" I fit easily with my full face helmet on and sitting comfortably upright.

Sure, I was pretty bummed about the lack of a weighing or test drive, but what do you do? Ford is being pretty sly with this one, and could be covering up a whole pack of lies (weight claims) or... maybe they just want to save the surprise for when these are released. Who knows? We will see soon enough.

Kind of wished I would have entered that ProSolo, though.



By the end of this very long day they had awards to present for "class winners", and we won a 3 foot tall trophy - along with about 1/3rd of the attendees. I guess you could call it an attendance award.

What's Next?


  • GTA @ Road Atlanta - May 9-10th, 2014. This is where I crashed hard on Day 1, broke my back and damaged the car. That really sucked.
  • NASA @ Hallett June 21-22, 2014 - Hopefully I will be cleared by the doctors to race at this event, and I'm really looking forward to that!


That's all for this installation of the S197 build thread. I'll cover the GTA event at Road Atlanta in my next post, hopefully later this week, as well as more of my thoughts on the upcoming S550 Mustang and the rumors of it weighing "XXX" pounds over the S197 model. I won't bet the farm on the weight claims just yet - not until I see one or more of these cars on my scales with my own eyes.

Thanks for reading!
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 22, 2014...

bob said:
Respectfully requesting an update on the brake failure... since that's pretty relevant to us all.



We're still not done with repairs but they are wrapping them up today, because we have a track event on Saturday in the car. But here's what we know so far:

1. The front brake pads had virtually ZERO material left, after the crash. Of course these were inspected before we went out on track for both stints at GTA, but they wore down at an unexpectedly rapid rate in that final session. These were Carbotech's hardest compound, the XP20, and we only started the day with 1/2 pad thickness (mistake #1)
2. The fresh Motul RBF600 brake fluid had boiled during my extremely long stints at this seriously brake intensive track. The Motul rep was aghast that we hadn't stepped up to RBF660 already (mistake #2)
3. We knew we were already seeing 490°F temps at the caliper (via the Alcon temp strips) in normal 3 lap TT bursts, but in these 12+ lap/ 30 minute stints we had to have exceeded those temps. We didn't have the Alcon strips on the car at this event, because we had lost the entire packet of them (mistake #3)
4. The 3" front brake ducting hose was recently re-routed to make more room for the 335mm front tires, and in doing so it added more restrictive bends in 2 places. This had to impact airflow greatly to the front brakes (mistake #4)
5. Other racers familiar with Road Atlanta said that they have seen a mysteriously "dead pedal" like this in the same corner, due to pad knock back from a previous turn on the long straight leading up to Turn 10A. One of the tricks I have been told since the crash was when on long straights, like the run from Turn 7 to 10A at Road Atlanta, is to "pump the brake" with my left foot (while still WOT), just to make sure the pads are touching the rotor and to feel if the pedal is mushy. This pad knockback issue can be remedied with this single pedal pump on a long straight, but if it doesn't come back (if there is another braking system problem) at least you know with plenty of time to slow the car down before you would be normally braking.



Lots of little mistakes just added up to this brake system failure at the worst possible corner of a dangerous track. In four years, never had this happen to this car. I own all of those mistakes - it wasn't something stupid, or a single part that failed, and I was obviously over-driving the brakes. Again, this is an unusually heavy car (3800 pounds) and has a good bit of aero.

Here are all fixes that will be in place by this weekend:

1. Brand new full depth set of Carbotech pads
2. A full flush of Motul RBF660 (if this has issues we will move to Castrol SRF). Our maintenance schedule was already enough to warrant going to 660 (which has to be bled more often than 600). SRF has to be completely flushed more often and is usually bled after EVERY track session. Nightmare.
3. All new 4" brake ducting to replace the 3" ducts
4. Replacing much of the corrugated hose with smooth aluminum tubing and just enough 4" flex hose at the wheel to support turning. No tight bends to restrict front brake cooling airflow.

There is a new front bumper cover, new CS Lower Grill insert and new side skirt going on. The splitter was actually pretty easy to repair (strong like bull!) and these new bits are going on the car today.



More on these repairs.... 2 posts from now.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 23, 2014...

[B]kcbrown[/B] said:
I thought the whole point of SRF was that it needed to be flushed/bled less frequently, due to being a lot less hygroscopic.
Well yes, it is less hygroscopic, but... that means that when water does get into the system (and it will) it separates and falls to the lowest point in the system, which is right at the calipers. Many race teams that use SRF will push a little fluid out after every single session on track, as there's going to be a little water at the bottom of the system each time. The more hygroscopic fluid absorbs this small amount of water vapor into the fluid, and eventually it needs to be flushed out. The Motul 660 is more hygroscopic than their RBF 600, so the maintenance schedule is higher for flushing. But we already flush and bleed the brakes a bit before every event, so its not a big deal to us.

  • Street/track cars: Use Motul 600
  • Track only cars: Use 660
  • Professional race teams with a crew that attacks the car every time it comes off track: Use Castrol SRF
That's my story and I'm stickin to it. :)

Then.... Captain Obvious chimes in....



[B]Pentalab[/B] said:
My orange silicone hoses are smooth bore on the inside....and corrugated on the outside. I thought they all were constructed that way?
Flexible brake duct hose isn't even remotely smooth bore, even the ones you think that "have the wire on the outside". Anything flexible is going to make for turbulent, restricted air flow compared to smooth bore rigid tubing/pipe/hose.



We have upgraded the front of our car to 4" hoses and ducts (today) which, while still having 100% flex hose, will flow more cooling air than 3" flex hose. Going to aluminum tubing wasn't practical in the space constraints we had on this car, and the time available to do the work this week.



And due to the data we've seen directly (see temp strip indicators on calipers) we know the rear calipers aren't seeing anywhere near enough heat to need brake ducting, as of yet. They are getting to barely 190°F, whereas the fronts are seeing upwards of 475°F.
[B]Pentalab[/B] said:
think you said you are using 4 piston brembo's with 14" rotor's ? Dunno if 6 piston caliper's would fare any better. 15" rotor's are used on the newer GT-500's
You don't say???? :dunce:



Look, I know this - I own a a freagin shop that works on Mustangs!!! Everyone here on this subforum knows what brakes are on a GT500. We're not some bunch of noobs on some scab forum. But the kicker is this: 15" rotors don't fit inside almost any 18" wheels. I have many reasons NOT to "upgrade" to 19" wheels, which I have posted about dozens of times.

I know you're new here, but you keep posting the most obtuse things and its getting a bit ridiculous. My suggestion is this: READ MORE, POST LESS.

[B]Pentalab[/B] said:
What about the rear brakes ? With heavy springs etc, minimizing nose dive vs oem suspension, on paper, more of the load should transfer to the rear brakes. The oem 11.8", 1 piston brakes are probably not up to the task. Some folks have installed 14" rotor's on the rear....
Look, we kind of pioneered the 13.8" GT500 swap on these cars. We were one of the first shops to offer this as a kit for the cars with the 11.5" rear rotors - and of course we tested it on our car first.



Again, don't take this the wrong way, but: READ MORE, POST LESS.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 23, 2014...

[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Knock-back is NOT common, at least on HPDE level S197s. When you get to TT or in the race groups, it becomes more common, but it's still not something that you'll see with any regularity unless your hubs are toast or you're REALLY whacking the berms. Trust me, this is a RARE thing to experience. In my years of TT and racing, so far I've had it happen exactly once, and that was due to failing wheel bearings, NOT berm-hopping (which I do) or high-load cornering (which I also do). It STILL makes sense just to give the brakes a left-foot tap before getting to the big braking zones, though.
Good tips and data from Dave, as usual. I was wondering if this was knock-back that caused the TOTAL loss of pedal, as I had a firm pedal braking into Turn 7 right before the L-O-N-G back straight. Pro racer Jason Saini suggested the same cause (knockback), and the same cure: a little tap of the brake pedal with the left foot on long straights just to re-seat the pads. Its a trick I'm going to employ in the future, for sure.



But as Jason mentioned the brake pedal was still MUSHY AS ALL HELL when we drove the car a week after the accident. The guys here flushed out all of the Motul 600 and replaced it with 660, and the pedal is perfect again. And yes, the front pads had less than 1/4 of the material thickness left (see picture below!), and the rears were just as bad.



That didn't help matters, of course. And while I have used SRF on some customers' cars, its not the right fluid for me. I'm a Motul dealer, and I try to race what we sell, and I kind of like a little hygroscopic aspect to the fluid. The DOT5 silicone stuff has never really been my favorite brake fluid.

The titanium shims between calipers and pads have been suggested by many, and I've seen all sorts of tricks like this over the past 27 years of doing track events... but none of it works all that well, in my opinion. It might barely slow down the heat transfer but once that heat passes into the calipers they'd act like an insulator. Just like the phenolic upper intake manifold spacers people used to use on 2-piece aluminum intake ... it worked great for a very short period (drag racers), but then it became an insulator, trapping heat where you didn't want it. No, I've just got to go out on track at these brake intensive tracks full thickness, and leave those 1/2 and 1/4 thickness pads for "less critical uses" like autocross or whatnot.

And while I did jump up pentalab's ass for his silly observations (he has been doing this all over this forum, and I'm not the only one noticing) I do appreciate all of the tips, suggestions, tricks and advice from the more experienced folks. And anyone is free to ask questions of us here anytime, in this thread or elsewhere. That's why we're here. I don't hold anything back, and this accident was totally avoidable. So please, learn from my mistakes! :)

We're testing the 4" brake ducts (fix #1, see below) tomorrow at a brake intensive track - Eagles canyon Raceway. Amy is driving, as my broken bones are still healing for at least 4 more weeks before I can get back in the car. I'm hoping by NASA @ Hallett in late June that I'll be able to drive, to defend both of my track records there (TT3 going CW and CCW)! We'll see. I'm going NUTS not being able to race... or go to the gym, or lift more than about 5 pounds, or lay down flat or bend over without serious pain. GRR!



I'm also going to be sticking temp strips on a number of other Mustangs' Brembo calipers tomorrow at ECR, to check their temperatures vs their pad material vs their track times. Could be some good data to share!



Mustang is all fixed now: it has a new bumper cover, one new plastic side skirt, brand new XP20 pads and 660 fluid, and the bigger brake ducting. It is all loaded up and ready for track abuse once again (we will be at ECR at 7 am tomorrow). The splitter took almost no damage, and with a new bumper cover and some mounts + some patches to the flares it is all good to go.



Cheers! :thanks
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 23, 2014...

[B]Dubstep Shep[/B] said:
Got two questions for you real quick:

Isn't turbulent air flow better in terms of air resistance? Hence why golf balls have dimples? Laminar flow is quieter and more predictable, but I thought for maximum air flow turbulent was better?[/I]
Hmm, unless I am misunderstanding you, No... for maximum total flow with air (or with any fluid flow) you want smooth, laminar flow through smooth bore tubing, if at all possible. The rule of thumb in race car plumbing for fluids is: you need to up-size at least 1-2 sizes for non-smooth bore tubing/hose to match the flow of a (smaller) smooth bore tubing/hose.



This is partly why the OEM corrugated intake hose on the 5.0L engine makes less power than an aftermarket smooth bore "cold air" intake hose kit. Its all about smoothing out those ridges, smoothing and increasing the flow of air to the engine. The OEM hose is more flexible (accounting for drivetrain slop/movement) but it flows less total air.



And ideally we want more air flow to the brake rotors, to extract more heat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstep Shep
Why not use the Wilwood six piston brakes? They advertise that they fit under a 18" wheel.

They might indeed make a 6-pison caliper that fits inside an 18" wheel. We could upgrade to a number of 6-pison calipers, which with more mass can hold more heat, and potentially have a larger brake pad. But normally, on the S197, you don't see 6 pot calipers on OEM or most aftermarket Big Brake Kits until you get to 15" rotors, which don't fit inside the 18" wheels we need to use (for many reasons).



And Wilwood is.... not really my favorite brand of calipers. You never see Wilwood calipers on endurance or pro level race cars - for a reason. They are really just a bit cheaper, and more street car oriented. There are much better (aka: more rigid) calipers available from Brembo, Alcon, PFC, StopTech, and others.

We have a brake upgrade we are planning for this car with a 6-pison Brembo caliper and 2-piece 14.5" rotor that just fits inside the 18" wheel barrels. We'll see if it pans out. That is about as large as you can go on 18" wheels, but most kits come in whole inch increments (even when measured in millimeters): 12", 13", 14" and 15" are common aftermarket rotor sizes.

[B]Dubstep Shep[/B] said:
Also, if you're gonna be at Hallett (my "local" track) in June, cool if I stop by and bug you with a million questions? hehehehe
No problemo - again, answering questions and helping folks is why we're there! Getting to race is just a bonus. :)
 
Last edited:

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 23, 2014...

[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
OOOOOOHHH!!! Hallet June 21-22 with NASA... Everybody that CAN make it should, that is also the American Iron and Camaro-Mustang Challenge "Summer Shootout." An annual pilgrimage of racers from a LOT of different regions, and it's not uncommon to have 30+ car fields. AI takes a rolling start as wave one, and then CMC comes to a screeching halt right behind them to set up for a standing start, on a green track... 30+ V8 engines, all hammering away at full chat is something to see, and it should be a LOT of close racing. This should be a mini-preview for Nationals.




Yep, the AI/CMC races during Summer Shootout is always fun to watch! The standing starts are THE BEST!!!





[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Oh, and yeah, Terry will be running in TT as well... ;-)
Cool, come on - we need the class entries. TT3 should be huge, as several of the Colorado TT3 regulars are coming down to join the Texas contegent (we usually have 5-7 in class for most events)!



An AI car (9:1) is a perfect fit for TT3. I have run that track for exactly 4 sessions (I broke the car on Day 1 and had to rush back to Dallas to get repairs, then back to Hallett the next day), and we ran both directions that day, so the existing TT3 records are weak... and we had the wipmy front aero, old rear wing, and skinny tires back then, plus they just repaved Hallett a few weeks ago. I suspect my old records will be CRUSHED! "By whom" is the question. :nk:



Looks like my best lap beat the fastest AI car (Patterson's Camaro) by about 2 seconds last year, but I barely knew corner numbers and took terrible lines (according to everyone who watched my Hallett videos, hehe). I'm hoping my back is in good enough shape to race there in 4 weeks, and if we can get a few more mods done to the car by then, and get a lot more seat time that weekend, I hope I can improve on my old best times by a few seconds. Otherwise it'll be Amy racing the car all weekend. With all of these out-of-region folks coming in, and AI racers jumping over, TT3 will be anyone's ball game. Should be fun!

[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Great observations from Terry. Pad knock-back (long pedal), plus thin pads (no insulator), plus locked wheels/extreme ABS (rapid heat transfer to the calipers) equals bent car, injured driver, and baked brakes. Not a good formula. Terry, any ideas on the cause of the knock-back? Aero-supported cornering forces? Curb hopping? Bearings?
Again, I don't think our brake failure this time was pad knock-back. Maybe it contributed a small bit, I don't know. The front wheel bearings are tight (we check them before every event; this is our 4th set in 4 years and they were fresh) and I was staying off of the curbing, as it was upsetting the car when I tried using curbs at RA. So while maybe it contributed a little... the fluid was BOILED GOO when we were done. :(
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 23, 2014...

[B]Dubstep Shep[/B] said:
As far as brakes, like any system on a road track car, is heat soak an issue? You say bigger brakes will hold more heat, which I agree with, but after a certain point won't they be just as susceptible to heat soak? Like you can upgrade your intercooler tank capacity all you want, but after running it hard for a certain amount of time it's all going to be hot. You're just delaying how long it takes to get there. I suppose a larger caliper would have more surface area though, which means it would dissipate heat quicker though.
Yes and yes.

[B]Dubstep Shep[/B] said:
Also, why not use more advanced materials like carbon ceramic? Not cost effective?
YIKES! Oh yes... carbon ceramic systems are coming online in high dollar OEM applications, and the TOP levels of pro racing, but they are far from cost effective enough for HPDE/Time Trials/Club Racing use.



Go price a set of factory replacement carbon ceramic rotors for a GTR... five figures. And they CAN and WILL wear out with track use. Our customer's car (shown above) uses OEM rotors/pads on his TT1 prepped ZR1 Corvette. They have to be weighed (to a fine resolution) to know when they need to be replaced. And while they can last longer, they aren't cheap.



My car's Centric Premium 14" front rotors cost ninety nine bucks. Remember: I'm just a small business owner and the "opposite of rich", heh. I also try to test and race what our customers use, which - right now at least - doesn't have much to do with carbon ceramic brakes, I'm afraid. When/if the costs get low enough I'll be one of the first to switch. That material is better for brake parts than iron in every possible performance metric. Except COST. :yuck:
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 27, 2014...

[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
...you'd see that they have MORE than adequate fab skills to graft 4" ducting into the front fascia, and in fact have been doing that on various projects (Brianne Corn's PPIR car for example) for quite a while. They can do more than just take a part out of a box and bolt it in place.
Agreed, and thank you for pointing this out, Dave.



Our crew easily converted the front fascia to accept true 4" ducts made of tubular aluminum. They are significantly larger than the 3" opening (3" dia duct = 7.06" sq inches, 4" dia duct = 12.56 sq inches, or 43% larger surface area at the opening).



This means - more airflow. We ran out of time and did NOT open up the backing plate to 4" (we have to start over from scratch and make an all new unit - we we will soon, and offer for sale soon after. The Ford Racing carbon fiber 4" backing plates are mega $$), but with the entire length of hose from the front openings to the backing plate at 4" diameter, it did have more total air flow.



How do I know? Testing. We just got back from a test day last Saturday at a local brake intensive track (ECR). Amy drove the car hard all day, and only managed to see 430°F max indicated temps on the front calipers.



We were seeing 490°F before on the fronts, so that's about a 60°F drop. She was hot lapping the car all day and went through tanks of fuel on a warm-ish 85°F day, at a track we have a LOT of testing at. So instead of arguing "dimples" improving aero based on a freakin MYTH BUSTERS tv show, we're out testing the changes we are making, to see if they really work.



Next up - we will re-fabricate the backing plates to work with 4" hoses and remove the restriction. We will also try to replace some of the flexible, corrugated hose with aluminum or plating tubing (we ran out of time to do that) with a less tortured path than what the 4" hoses have now (see above).



[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Rear brakes: Once people find the "TCS OFF" button on track, rear brakes stop being a problem. They don't get hot enough to worry about, and even with the stock 12" rears, there is enough brake torque to balance the fronts in 13" or 14". If the rear brakes were such an issue, don't you think the $100,000+ Boss302/R would have something more back there? It doesn't, and competes successfully right out of the box. From a pure performance standpoint, the 14" rear conversion kit is there for one reason, and one reason only: to fill those ridiculously huge 19" wheels with brake rotor. In the end, it's an appearance mod, so that you don't have an acre of empty wheel barrel in back, with this tiny little peanut brake setup.
Well... yes and no. Yes, turning off the TCS is the biggest improvement to rear brakes anyone could make. But we never ran with that on. We did see some somewhat high temps on the 11.5" rear brakes, and rotor and pad wear were very accelerated. We didn't try ducting, which may have worked well, but there wasn't a good way to package this on a street-ish car, and ultimately that is our goal - to find solutions that we can sell to other folks, instead of building a one-off race team solution.



Again, our car is a bit atypical with respect to weight (3802 with driver and ballast in TT3 trim), aero loading, grip levels (345mm Hoosier A6) and overall speeds (lately our TT3 laps have been 7+ seconds/lap faster than American Iron records).



With the upgrade we made to the 13.8" GT500 rear rotor over a year ago we are seeing much longer rear rotor life, at least. Rear pads still wear faster than I want, but better than they did before. We ran almost 8 months on a pair of GT500 rear rotors, and are only on our second pair in 12 months of use.



But yes, a lot of people do this "14 inch rear brake upgrade" for the looks. It happens. Especially in the 19" OEM wheels... the 14's fill it up.



[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Looking at 4-piston rears with a solid axle, that's again for bragging rights. If it's a radial-mounted fixed caliper, you'll have knock-back for DAYS as the axle play lets the rotor slide in and out. The only way that will work is with some kludged-together floating caliper mount, and again, you're adding mass to no purpose.
Agreed, this type of fixed caliper rear brake never works on a solid axle car like the Mustang.

[B]SoundGuyDave[/B] said:
Seriously (Pentalap) you only half-understand a lot of the concepts that you're pontificating about, frequently promulgate blatantly WRONG information, and make pretty ludicrous or bloody obvious suggestions on a fairly regular basis. Terry's advice is spot-on: Read more, post less (tm). And, in particular, post only when you have something SOLID, CORRECT, PROVABLE, and DEFENSIBLE to offer. Of course, questions are fair game.
Agreed. Unfortunately Penatalab has added literally nothing to this thread or sub-forum of worth. He is just regurgitating crap he has read elsewhere... and we don't need that on S197forums. Most of us have been to those other Mustang forums, the ones where the "group think" is mindless and broken, and bad tech is spewed as gospel every day. We simply don't need that kind of "tech help" here. :(

[B]csamsh[/B] said:
The GT500 (15") rotor weighs nearly 33#.


Yes indeed. The 15" 6-piston rotor is an absolute boat anchor at 33 pounds. We've upgraded/installed these GT500 front brakes for some S197 customers here (when they wanted bling more than performance, against our recommendations) and I was amazed at the weight. The 6-pot caliper isn't that much heavier, though.



The 14" front for the Brembo cars is heavy enough (just a tick heavier than the massive 18x12" wheels we use), but the 15" rotor is just plain silly.



The 2-piece 14" rotors from the Boss302 are about 6 pounds lighter than the 1-piece 14" OEM units, and we've looked at going to a 2-piece rotor for our car... but the costs are heinous. If we were a well funded Pro team we'd do it, of course, but we are not. I suspect none of you here are either. Figure $400-750 each for 2-piece 14" fronts.... vs $99 for good quality 1-piece fronts.



As for the rear brakes, the stock GT rear rotor is about 13 and a half pounds, whereas the 13.8" GT500 rear is a hair over 16 pounds. The extra 2 and a half pounds was worth it to extend rotor life as much as we have.



[B]csamsh[/B] said:
On the optimaztion of the rear rotor- there are a few things to account for. There was a massive thread over on C-C about this exact question last summer, which devolved into people putting "math equations" up. Anyway- If you're a PWC team, or Roush Racing, or Rehagen or somebody, you can duct the shit out of the rears, and you can change literally everything back there between each race, so...it doesn't really matter that it's a 12" rotor. If you're Terry or a club racer, your budget is not a pro-race team budget, and, in Terry's case, he races what he sells. That red car is a parts test-bed and advertising platform more than anything else- to run a setup on it that is not saleable is not his goal (I'll look past the reverse-ducted hood...). Therefore, the bigger rotor will add some lifespan. That's about all the benefit you'll get- the fronts, in one session will still overheat faster, but there's less of a chance that the rears will overheat first, and will eliminate the need for ducting for track-day poseurs like me.
Well said... that's exactly why we didn't duct the rears. It is much harder to do than up front and the hoses generally hang under the car and get ripped off in any off-track excursion. The heavier and larger diameter 13.8" rotor upgrade was just easier and they last a good bit longer than the stock bits, as we've seen.

edit: I am utterly ignoring the "dimpled aero advantage" bodywork silliness from here on out, which was spawned from urban myth and reinforced by the goofballs on myth-busters. Please take it to another thread. Thanks.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 29, 2014...

[B]2008 V6[/B] said:
Sorry Terry but it is difficult to get hard numbers from most people. If you don't mind - would like to share? If not, no problem.
Thanks either way.
We were seeing 490°F at the front calipers before, with 3" ducting and Carbotech XP20 pads...



Now its down to 430°F with the same pads and 4" ducting... when we make the backing plate opening 4" it should get even more airflow and possibly go lower. I hope.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
May 30, 2014...

[B]Sky Render[/B] said:
Where do you get those temp strips from? Those things are trick!
Unfortunately there isn't a good source for these Alcon temp strips at the moment. We tried to set-up a dealership with one of their distributors but they jerked us around so much we'll never buy anything form them again - they charged $14 to ship one packet of these strips, which weighs less than 2 ounces! And the price went up 25% overnight. And we had ordered 3 kits, not 1, and it took 4 weeks to get them - and they had them in stock the whole time. I'm not naming names but this place absolutely SUCKS. We're trying to go direct with Alcon.

I'll post up when I have a good inventory here at Vorshlag.

[B]2008 V6[/B] said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond Terry but I am actually looking for Rotor Temps. If you have those and would share, I would appreciate it.
As for rotor temps, we haven't checked that and it likely would be too hot to have these Alcon temp strips adhere to... I've checked rotor temps with an IR gun on various cars and have seen 400-800°F numbers - they get HOT.

But it almost doesn't matter what the rotor temps are, as they are cast iron and good up to around 3000 degrees before they melt, heh. The temps that really DO matter include:

  • Brake Fluid - hydraulic fluid boils at known temperatures and this level must be avoided
  • Hubs - the grease in the hubs can melt and cause premature failure
  • Brake pads - various pad compounds have a range of temps that work in
Since it is hard to check brake fluid temp directly we stick these strips on the brake calipers near the pistons... which is as close as we can get to the fluid. Ditto on on the brake pads - they get SO hot that nothing will stick to them. They get about as hot as the rotors, and you can use an IR gun for that, with a driver coming in after a hot lap (no cool down) and someone in the hot pits gunning the rotor face.



Don't try to over-think this stuff guys. Just make sure to blow the brake cooling air inside the rotor ring itself, which allows the air to pump through the vented ring inboard to out, which keeps the rotor cool... which then keeps the pads and fluid cool. Since the heat from the rotor passes through the pads and pistons to the fluid. The cooling air also cools the hubs, which is a wear item on these cars, if you aim it correctly.



Again, knowing the exact rotor temperate could be nice from a metallurgical point of view, but the critical items are those shown above.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

Official Site Vendor
Official Vendor
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Posts
1,592
Reaction score
107
Location
Dallas, TX
June 3, 2014...

[B]steveespo[/B] said:
Terry any thought to using multiple hoses, and also brake fans inline. Extreme for a street car but two h3" hoses could be mounted in a modified 2010-2012 CS/Boss fascia trim. One for the hub and one for the caliper. Also have you guys considered cooling the master cylinder and reservoir with a hose? It gets hot, not as hot as the caliper fluid but if there is positive heat transfer, maybe negative heat transfer can occur and help. Love the fabrication work you guys do at the Vorschlag shop.
Steve
Yea, we looked at dual 3" or a single 4" front brake hoses... but the space under the front of the car is pretty tight with those big 335mm tires swinging around in there, so we made the 4" hose fit and opened up the fog light opening to match. It seemed to knock front temps down by 60 degrees at our last ECR track test.



The double brake ducting idea for cooling the rotor and caliper independently is a good one, and we've used that on customer's Endurance cars. But our TT3 Mustang rarely sees more than 2-3 hot laps in a row... this incident at Road Atlanta happened after two longer stints (12+ hot laps in a row), with much higher speeds than we normally see (155+), on really thin brake pads (mistake), with the wrong fluid for the weight/speed of this car (mistake), and it all just added up to the big off. :yuck:

Cooling the master cylinder is an interesting idea... might have to check the fluid temps up there.
 

Latest posts

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top