What Do You Think About These LCA's?

[Whiskey11]

How much articulation do they need? I would think the rear would handle that???


I was thinking the same, but I don't want to test anything.

See above, the issue is the rotation at the chassis point in top view during roll, not articulation of the chassis point in roll from the front view.

 

[Department Of Boost]

See above, the issue is the rotation at the chassis point in top view during roll, not articulation of the chassis point in roll from the front view.

I have a terminal case of the stupids today (it has been going on all day!). Huh? I'm confused.

I need to sleep more.

 

[csamsh]

I don't think it would be a problem on the lowers like it is on the upper- seems like articulation needed out at the end of the axle should be a lot lower than what's needed in the middle of the axle, but that's just me speculating.

 

[Whiskey11]

I have a terminal case of the stupids today (it has been going on all day!). Huh? I'm confused.

I need to sleep more.

Think of the rear axle in top view. The same geometry that creates roll steer is going to also cause the LCA's to move inward and outward at the axle end as the axle articulates. The chassis side of the LCA must take this change in angle into account or it will bind up.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Think of the rear axle in top view. The same geometry that creates roll steer is going to also cause the LCA's to move inward and outward at the axle end as the axle articulates. The chassis side of the LCA must take this change in angle into account or it will bind up.

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah, I see what you are sayin Whiskey.

I'm going to have to do some testing soon, and see what happens.

As said, I do have customers running those TCA021 with Delrin and Even Bronze front bushings.

 

[sheizasosay]

What issues do you have with the J&M LCAs Gmitch?

 

[Department Of Boost]

What issues do you have with the J&M LCAs Gmitch?

I haven't pulled them off yet (maybe tomorrow) but I think I chewed the joint up a little on the RH side. No biggie, I'll just get a new one from J&M and put the arms on my 2012. That thing is to slow to hurt anything.

 

[Whiskey11]

Yeah, I see what you are sayin Whiskey.

I'm going to have to do some testing soon, and see what happens.

As said, I do have customers running those TCA021 with Delrin and Even Bronze front bushings.

Bronze? I'm not sure I'd want to see what their chassis bolt holes look like or their chassis mounting point for the LCA's.

Let me guess though, drag racers?

 

[Sky Render]

My vote is for spherical bearings, too. Also, if you're looking for an upper control arm...

BMR's are pretty much the beefiest I've seen.

NVH is subjective. I've got rod ends in my suspension and only notice noise on low speed bumps if the radio is turned off. You can hear a bit of gear whine/lash, too. Bah. Racecar.

 

[BMR Tech]

Bronze? I'm not sure I'd want to see what their chassis bolt holes look like or their chassis mounting point for the LCA's.

Let me guess though, drag racers?

Road course. I'll try and find pics.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Terry, I think he is looking for options for 800-1000+rwhp - in a maximized traction / drag strip type application.

I could be wrong, but I think that is the route he is now taking for his car.

In that event, a quality rod-ended set of LCA are my vote. The polyurethane stuff simply isn't up to the task, when dealing with very high powered combos designed for optimal launching characteristics.

I don't wish to go into detail with our testing on the various "joints" out there, but I will say that we have come to the conclusion that a true quality bearing is the best path to take, in just about any situation where NVH is of minimal concern.

Ahh, I was confused - since he was asking this question in Corner Carvers section.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Ahh, I was confused - since he was asking this question in Corner Carvers section.

No, he was confused. It's a corner carver.

 

[BMR Tech]

Yeah - I'm a "new post" kinda guy. My bad.

gmitch has too many projects going on.

That said, even for a "corner-carver"....a quality bearing is a better choice, compared to a Poly Bushing. Especially at 1000hp levels.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yeah - I'm a "new post" kinda guy. My bad.

gmitch has too many projects going on.

That said, even for a "corner-carver"....a quality bearing is a better choice, compared to a Poly Bushing. Especially at 1000hp levels.

Yeah newb!

 

[Mountain]

On paper these Delp-Sphere bearings are the ultimate in streetable performance for a multi-axis of rotation bushing. It has the firmness or Delrin, the ease of rotation of a spherical, and the Delrin bushing material is just enough of an NVH soak-up to allow for streetability. They are also adjustable, rebuildable, and greaseable via the included grease zerk - and streetable. Sign me up, right?

Well... not so much, in practice. We used these Del-Sphere bushing ends in a Spohn Panhard bar and a UCA (also from Sphon) on our S197 and they were all a noisy, clunking mess. We re-adjusted the Del-Sphere ends a few times, greased them, called Spohn for help, tried just the Panhard bar by itself, but the noises never went away. And we're a suspension shop, so its not like we were clueless here. I couldn't wait to get these parts off the Mustang - all of this is still sitting in my shop, nearly new, and for sale on our Clearance Page at a steep discount. I really really wanted these bushings to work, and was envisioning all sorts of things we could do with these Del-Sphere joints. So disappointing!

I won't even get into how poorly the UCA bushing fit the upper mount, but long story short - it wasn't even close. We machined our own bushing inserts and it helped a little, but the noises never went away.

Replacing the Spohn UCA with the Multimatic $700 Boss 302-S/R UCA with a spherical bushing cured all of the noises and removed the slop. An expensive arm, to be sure, but the only one we tried that actually fit the mount properly.

So if you take anything from this it is: avoid the Del-Sphere bushings until they have them sorted out a little better. We had nothing but bad luck with those. The Whiteline LCAs and Panhard, on the other hand, work perfectly. Their "polymer" bushings allow enough rotating but don't have the slop or compliance of the OEM rubber ends to allow a lot of movement. All of these Mustang-specific items are fabricated in Southern California, too.

Even if you don't buy them from Vorshlag, trust me - these WL LCAs and Panhard bars are legit, and they both work for racing and street use alike (I'm still not a fan of the wL UCA, however - and I might get some grief from this for saying that). We've sold hundreds of these WL LCA and Panhard set-ups and there's not one customer yet that has come back and said "These make noise". Not one. I can't say that about many things, honestly...

Cheers,

I have a Spohn Poly/Del-Sphere panhard bar and Poly/Del-Sphere lower control arms. Initially, I had all the clunking issues as well. I have since learned how to properly adjust these Del-Sphere joints to make them pretty damn quiet. It's now to the point I hear more noise from the poly bushings squeaking than I do from the Del-Sphere joints.

Just so I'm not question on longevity of the joints being quiet - because, yes, I know, sometimes you can adjust these things and they are silent for about a month - I have had the panhard bar installed for about a year, with it being "correctly" adjusted and quiet for a few months. During that year, I have edged closer and closer to making the Del-Sphere quiet with incremental adjustment. I have had my lower control arms installed for almost a month and I adjusted those the way I found that works best from my experience with the panhard bar from day one. My lower control arms have not given me any sign of clunking what-so-ever.

I daily drive my car in the summer and I have had it to track days and autocrosses. So, the parts have had some good loads on them.

What did I do?

First, replace the factory bolts with 10.9 or Grade 8 replacements that have a more full shank. I used the same size metric fastener with a fuller shank and non-reduced shank diameter (the factory pieces neck-down and do not fit tight in the component holes). Yes, you could go a step further and find the metric or english equivalent that has the closest fitment and/or adjust the hole sizes for a tight fit, but I just used a "better" fastener. By the way, the RUCA has probably the worst fitment fastener to competence hole. I have not and will not replace the RUCA from stock (I do not believe they need to be replaced unless you are hard-core drag racing - stick with replacing the RLCA only otherwise).

Second, the Del-Sphere needs to be tightened down more than you think (WAAAAAY to loosely adjust from the box!!!!). I torqued my adjustment plates to 21-22 lb-ft and then moved to the next closest set-screw void. For example, if you torque down the plate and to get to the next set-screw (going clockwise; tightening) is quite far and would require a lot more tightening (seemingly much more past 22 lb-ft), move back (go counter-clockwise; loosening) to the closest set-screw location back. If you can get to the next set-screw location going clockwise (tightening), however, do so.

 

[Mountain]

Let me make one more comment about the Del-Sphere and the Roto-Joint type of joints... these joints are widely used in the automotive OEM's on suspensions, just not adjustable (I know this for a fact). You'd be surprised - take a close look around.

 

[Boaisy]

Even if you don't buy them from Vorshlag, trust me - these WL LCAs and Panhard bars are legit, and they both work for racing and street use alike (I'm still not a fan of the wL UCA, however - and I might get some grief from this for saying that). We've sold hundreds of these WL LCA and Panhard set-ups and there's not one customer yet that has come back and said "These make noise". Not one. I can't say that about many things, honestly...

Cheers,

Not giving you grief for the bold part, but would like you to elaborate on what your opinion is on the WL UCA. I was part of the V1 issue (mine didn't snap, but it was bent), and am currently using V2. I haven't had any trouble out of mine yet, but kinda curious if you are having issues out of yours.

 

[csamsh]

Not giving you grief for the bold part, but would like you to elaborate on what your opinion is on the WL UCA. I was part of the V1 issue (mine didn't snap, but it was bent), and am currently using V2. I haven't had any trouble out of mine yet, but kinda curious if you are having issues out of yours.

I think the main issue is "it's not a spherical bearing and it needs to articulate"

 

[BMR Tech]

Let me make one more comment about the Del-Sphere and the Roto-Joint type of joints... these joints are widely used in the automotive OEM's on suspensions, just not adjustable (I know this for a fact). You'd be surprised - take a close look around.

This is true. There are OEM pivot points that are of a bearing type. You will see this on select platforms, on rear IRS pivots...and some front double ball joint systems. Typically though, the opposing end is a monstrous rubber bushing.

What specific applications are you referring to, specifically?

As for your specific comment about the bolts, and their shanks. This is industry wide. Aftermarket, and OEM. "Most" OEM bolts do not have a shank that fills the pivot point sleeve, and exceed to the outer side of the mount.

The bolt to sleeve/mount hole is not meant to provide the majority of the support. The surface area on the outer sleeve edges, are what provides the stability in the mounting system. Some sleeve designs, have serration to them, so the "TQ" of the bolt, buries the serrations into the metal.

The OEM bolts are a multi step design. They step down, then they step back up at the threads.

Here is a comparison of our LCA bolts, and the OEM.




If a product is not engineered properly, and torqued properly, this slop we are discussing can definitely become an issue, in terms of noise.

It is not common for us, though. Nor is it very common for OEM; although it does happen (OEM).

Check out this OEM "slop" on that UCA that you are using.



And, the BMR "Slop"



Also notice those witness marks on the OEM Mount. Like I mentioned above, the OEM UCA sleeve is designed on this unit...with recessions that are to "dig" in, and provide the stability. Of course, this one slipped on us at 700 miles.

Here is said UCA Sleeve:




As for the benefit of the UCA - I agree, that a lot of people can get by without upgrading.

Personally, I think a better UCA and Mount that is engineered properly, does wonders on this chassis. As a matter of fact, IMO, I believe they are very important when searching for the best performance.

A sloppy bushing'd UCA system leaves confidence on the table.